Amount of top notch QBs shrinking?

[BuffaloBlood]

ESPN is running an artilce that talks about how the number of top notch QBs is smaller than ever. If we assume this is true than why is it?

 

Could it be the win now mentality that is forced on coaches? If they do not win in a few seasons they are out the door so they in turn do not take the time to develop a Qb like you should.

 

Any other reasons anyone can think of as to why the level of QB play in the NFl is in a valley, and should this concern us at all about Trent?

[FluffHead]

Steroids, HGH and signal stealing make defenses freakier than ever??

[Orton's Arm]

ESPN is running an artilce that talks about how the number of top notch QBs is smaller than ever. If we assume this is true than why is it?

Maybe part of the reason is that our expectations were spoiled by the class of '83.

Could it be the win now mentality that is forced on coaches? If they do not win in a few seasons they are out the door so they in turn do not take the time to develop a Qb like you should.

That could also be part of it; but maybe not as big a part as some people might think. Terry Bradshaw played a lot in his rookie year. Players like Joe Montana and Bart Starr took a few snaps as rookies, and became regular starters in their second years.

Any other reasons anyone can think of as to why the level of QB play in the NFl is in a valley, and should this concern us at all about Trent?

In the past, it seemed like a lot of great quarterbacks were put into exactly the right offenses to take advantage of their skills. Joe Montana and the Walsh offense, Jim Kelly and the no huddle, John Elway and the Denver shotgun offense, Brett Favre and Green Bay's gunslinging offense, Dan Marino and Miami's pass-happy offense.

 

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like nowadays, offensive coordinators have become more rigid in their thinking. They'll impose a particular system on a quarterback, even if that system isn't the one that's best to take advantage of his strengths.

 

If a young version of Brett Favre were to declare himself for the draft, he might be shoehorned into a West Coast offense; and he might be asked to avoid anything even remotely resembling a gunslinging style of play. These limitations would keep this player from reaching his full potential.

 

There were times when I felt Steve Fairchild's playcalling kept Edwards from reaching his full potential. When your playcalling is run, run, pass, it means your quarterback isn't going to get any chances to convert on 1st or 2nd downs. To sustain drives, your passing attack as a whole has to be perfect on 3rd down; and that puts enormous pressure on any player (especially a rookie). With run, run, pass, each and every time your passing attack fails to create a first down, your punter will take the field.

 

Hopefully Turk meant meant it when he said he'd open up the offense.

 

Edwards' style of play seems best suited to an offense that does a high percentage of passing; with an emphasis on short to intermediate passes that move the chains. He also needs to be given the chance to throw the occasional long bomb; especially with players like Evans and Parrish on the roster. With the right playcalling, I could envision Edwards operating an offense that produces long, clock-killing drives, that demoralize the other team's defense while keeping it on the field. When teams over-commit to stopping the short to intermediate routes, it will be time to burn them with Evans.

 

The two factors which might keep Edwards from reaching his full potential are playcalling (let's hope for more passing on 1st and 2nd down!) and personnel. Edwards' style of play works best when the offense has a big, possession-type receiver, as well as a good TE. Hopefully, Hardy and Schouman will provide the answers at their respective positions.

[silvermike]

There are fewer great QBs now then there used to be because the definition of "All time great QB" is "Was really dominant when I was in middle school" for most people, especially sportswriters. Now that those guys have all retired, you're left with less.

[Albany,n.y.]

Too many QBs leaving college before their senior years. Most of the ones who left early busted or underachieved. Ben Roethlisberger is one of the few exceptions.

[stuckincincy]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like nowadays, offensive coordinators have become more rigid in their thinking. They'll impose a particular system on a quarterback, even if that system isn't the one that's best to take advantage of his strengths.

duces long, clock-killing drives, that demoralize the other team's defense while keeping it on the field. When teams over-commit to stopping the short to intermediate routes, it will be time to burn them with Evans.

 

I cringe every time I hear one of 'em say " We like to stick to our game plan for at lease a quarter (or so)". Even if the defense is slicing and dicing their plan.

 

Back when QBs called their own plays, and they were dealing with bump and run coverage, head slaps and the like, I think that the moxie of the QB mattered a bit more. And some had it in abundance.

 

A fun bunch, too. Several were booze hounds, smoked like a chimney, and chased tail wherever and whenever. These days, if a pro athlete farts, there is no lack of people running to construct the gallows.

[Chandler#81]

I was given an education about Pro quarterbacking back in the late sixties. I idolized Namath, Dawson, Kemp, Hadl, Brodie, Starr & Unitas. I shared these thoughts with an 'ole salt' at that time who rebutted that they were mostly over the hill and Namath's next game could be his last. He said the style of play at the pro level had changed and these 'field generals' would soon be a thing of the past. This was still at a time when most pros had other jobs to help support themselves. I blew it off as just a crotchety codger who'd complain the water was too smooth to go boating. I thought I'd re-inforced my belief through the seventies, watching Staubach and Stabler play but the decade became famous for Griese and Bradshaw, who I came to realize were more products of systems than game changing skills. Fouts possessd the full gamut of passing but he played in 'Air Coryell's system. There were very capable QB's -Fergy, Anderson & Barkowski -to name a few- but teams began calling all plays from the sidelines and true stars at the position were disappearing faster than cheap gas.

 

In the years that followed, this trend continued uninterupted. '83 brought 3 throwbacks into the league for which we were one of the benefactors. Elway, Marino and Kelly did possess the 'it' that their predecessors had and kept their teams in playoff contention throughout their careers, largely by their 'presence'. Even Montana, Moon and Brady* were/are just accurate system QB's. That's all that's required in todays game. Accurate, within a system. Favre is (was?) a freak. I say that with the greatest respect, but no coach today would accept this type of play from their QB's. We now routinely see guys cast off teams who manage to stick around in the league for a number of years and then 'Overnight' become a sensation, once they've found a system they fit.

 

Trent Edwards, IMO, fits this new description of the desired QB. Smart, relatively unassuming with accuracy and a blurring release. I think it's easier now to see these skills early on, even if the player doesn't fit that teams' style. The athletes and concepts of defenses today are simply too good for one player to overcome them mearly by his sheer will.

 

Today, I think only Manning represents the throwback Field General from my yester-years. To me, he's a treasure to watch.

 

Turns out, that crotchety codger was on to something..

[Sisyphean Bills]

Lots of reasons. But here are a couple:

 

1) Inadequate development time and coaching. QB talent is fed to the wolves early and often. Terry Bradshaw would've never played in a Super Bowl in today's NFL. Modern NFL offenses are overly complicated for a college player to walk in and instantly make it work. Patience has been replaced with "10 starts is plenty".

 

2) Pay structure and salary cap. Young QB talent (ala Matt Ryan) walk in the door as the highest paid guy on the team before taking a single snap. They have to play because teams can't afford not to play them.

 

3) Free agency. Players are bouncing around the NFL every year making continuity of a team impossible. Before a young QB can get used to the players in the huddle, they're gone.

 

4) The NFL coaching merry-go-round. Coaches and their systems are here one day and gone the next. Many people can excel at their work in the right niche environment. Very, very few are so adaptable and talented that they can excel in any and all environments they are thrown into.

[Gary M]

Maybe part of the reason is that our expectations were spoiled by the class of '83.

 

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like nowadays, offensive coordinators have become more rigid in their thinking. They'll impose a particular system on a quarterback, even if that system isn't the one that's best to take advantage of his strengths.

 

Like putting a strong arm mobile QB under center with no audible system, and no tight end?

[Beerball]

The worldwide popularity of soccer (The Other Football™) has diluted the talent base. Freddie Adieu is the handiest example I can provide.

[K-9]

...If a young version of Brett Favre were to declare himself for the draft, he might be shoehorned into a West Coast offense; ...

 

The young Brett Favre WAS acquired by GB to do precisely that: run the West Coast offense. His 'gunslinger' ways notwithstanding.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BuffaloBlood]

So based on the responses do we think that players of the 83 class would still be ahll of famers if they came into the league as a rookie today? What if Marino was drafter this year by Seattle or Elway was drafted by Minnesota or Kelly by San Francisco? Would they still be HOFers based on the talent alone?

[erynthered]

I was given an education about Pro quarterbacking back in the late sixties. I idolized Namath, Dawson, Kemp, Hadl, Brodie, Starr & Unitas. I shared these thoughts with an 'ole salt' at that time who rebutted that they were mostly over the hill and Namath's next game could be his last. He said the style of play at the pro level had changed and these 'field generals' would soon be a thing of the past. This was still at a time when most pros had other jobs to help support themselves. I blew it off as just a crotchety codger who'd complain the water was too smooth to go boating. I thought I'd re-inforced my belief through the seventies, watching Staubach and Stabler play but the decade became famous for Griese and Bradshaw, who I came to realize were more products of systems than game changing skills. Fouts possessd the full gamut of passing but he played in 'Air Coryell's system. There were very capable QB's -Fergy, Anderson & Barkowski -to name a few- but teams began calling all plays from the sidelines and true stars at the position were disappearing faster than cheap gas.

 

In the years that followed, this trend continued uninterupted. '83 brought 3 throwbacks into the league for which we were one of the benefactors. Elway, Marino and Kelly did possess the 'it' that their predecessors had and kept their teams in playoff contention throughout their careers, largely by their 'presence'. Even Montana, Moon and Brady* were/are just accurate system QB's. That's all that's required in todays game. Accurate, within a system. Favre is (was?) a freak. I say that with the greatest respect, but no coach today would accept this type of play from their QB's. We now routinely see guys cast off teams who manage to stick around in the league for a number of years and then 'Overnight' become a sensation, once they've found a system they fit.

 

Trent Edwards, IMO, fits this new description of the desired QB. Smart, relatively unassuming with accuracy and a blurring release. I think it's easier now to see these skills early on, even if the player doesn't fit that teams' style. The athletes and concepts of defenses today are simply too good for one player to overcome them mearly by his sheer will.

 

Today, I think only Manning represents the throwback Field General from my yester-years. To me, he's a treasure to watch.

 

Turns out, that crotchety codger was on to something..

 

 

Nice post.

 

Signed:

Ol'Salt

[Orton's Arm]

I was given an education about Pro quarterbacking back in the late sixties. I idolized Namath, Dawson, Kemp, Hadl, Brodie, Starr & Unitas. I shared these thoughts with an 'ole salt' at that time who rebutted that they were mostly over the hill and Namath's next game could be his last. He said the style of play at the pro level had changed and these 'field generals' would soon be a thing of the past. This was still at a time when most pros had other jobs to help support themselves. I blew it off as just a crotchety codger who'd complain the water was too smooth to go boating. I thought I'd re-inforced my belief through the seventies, watching Staubach and Stabler play but the decade became famous for Griese and Bradshaw, who I came to realize were more products of systems than game changing skills. Fouts possessd the full gamut of passing but he played in 'Air Coryell's system. There were very capable QB's -Fergy, Anderson & Barkowski -to name a few- but teams began calling all plays from the sidelines and true stars at the position were disappearing faster than cheap gas.

 

In the years that followed, this trend continued uninterupted. '83 brought 3 throwbacks into the league for which we were one of the benefactors. Elway, Marino and Kelly did possess the 'it' that their predecessors had and kept their teams in playoff contention throughout their careers, largely by their 'presence'. Even Montana, Moon and Brady* were/are just accurate system QB's. That's all that's required in todays game. Accurate, within a system. Favre is (was?) a freak. I say that with the greatest respect, but no coach today would accept this type of play from their QB's. We now routinely see guys cast off teams who manage to stick around in the league for a number of years and then 'Overnight' become a sensation, once they've found a system they fit.

 

Trent Edwards, IMO, fits this new description of the desired QB. Smart, relatively unassuming with accuracy and a blurring release. I think it's easier now to see these skills early on, even if the player doesn't fit that teams' style. The athletes and concepts of defenses today are simply too good for one player to overcome them mearly by his sheer will.

 

Today, I think only Manning represents the throwback Field General from my yester-years. To me, he's a treasure to watch.

 

Turns out, that crotchety codger was on to something..

I hate to nitpick such a strong post, but there's something you wrote with which I disagree. Montana was more than just the "accurate system QB" you've described him as. Montana excelled in throwing short to intermediate passes that could be caught without his WRs breaking stride. Very few quarterbacks are good at that; and perhaps none have been as good at it as Montana.

 

Before Montana was drafted, Walsh's preferred style of offense involved an emphasis on the running game and on long bombs. He ended up redesigning his offense from scratch to create a perfect fit for the QB he had. The 49ers' offense emphasized the things Montana did well; and de-emphasized things he was weaker at. Very few QBs are able to even come close to reaching Montana-like levels in the categories of things Montana did well.

[keepthefaith]

Lots of reasons. But here are a couple:

 

1) Inadequate development time and coaching. QB talent is fed to the wolves early and often. Terry Bradshaw would've never played in a Super Bowl in today's NFL. Modern NFL offenses are overly complicated for a college player to walk in and instantly make it work. Patience has been replaced with "10 starts is plenty".

 

2) Pay structure and salary cap. Young QB talent (ala Matt Ryan) walk in the door as the highest paid guy on the team before taking a single snap. They have to play because teams can't afford not to play them.

 

3) Free agency. Players are bouncing around the NFL every year making continuity of a team impossible. Before a young QB can get used to the players in the huddle, they're gone.

 

4) The NFL coaching merry-go-round. Coaches and their systems are here one day and gone the next. Many people can excel at their work in the right niche environment. Very, very few are so adaptable and talented that they can excel in any and all environments they are thrown into.

 

That and playing QB in the NFL is extremely difficult.

[Orton's Arm]

Like putting a strong arm mobile QB under center with no audible system, and no tight end?

I agree that the Bills' offensive system wasn't optimal for maximizing Losman's strengths or masking his weaknesses--although there was some effort in that direction. Typically, when you have a quarterback who isn't good at processing information quickly, you keep extra guys in to block. The lack of a #3 or #4 option won't hurt this guy that much--it's not like he's looking at his #3 or #4 options anyway. But the extra time in the pocket this method provides is helpful.

 

But the offense wasn't designed to capitalize on Losman's mobility. Losman was at his best when he rolled out of the pocket and made things happen while on the run. The Bills, apparently, didn't want an offense like that. They put Losman into a position where he'd either learn to become the pocket passer they envisioned, or else he would fail. I can't really fault that decision.

[Chandler#81]

I hate to nitpick such a strong post, but there's something you wrote with which I disagree. Montana was more than just the "accurate system QB" you've described him as. Montana excelled in throwing short to intermediate passes that could be caught without his WRs breaking stride. Very few quarterbacks are good at that; and perhaps none have been as good at it as Montana.

 

Before Montana was drafted, Walsh's preferred style of offense involved an emphasis on the running game and on long bombs. He ended up redesigning his offense from scratch to create a perfect fit for the QB he had. The 49ers' offense emphasized the things Montana did well; and de-emphasized things he was weaker at. Very few QBs are able to even come close to reaching Montana-like levels in the categories of things Montana did well.

 

Points well taken, H_A. Joe Cool is one of the all time greats with the 'moxie' Stuck in Cincy alludes to. You mention Walsh -a Gillman disciple- who had the foresight to alter his offense to accomodate Joe's strengths. IMO, Fouts (another Gillman disciple) possessed the same great passing skills, even though his teams never made an SB. Walsh's innovations are still prevalent everywhere today. Even Kurt Warner looked all world for a couple seasons with the Rams. Taken out of that system, he can't even stay on the field now.

 

My basic point is the 'Field General' has been discouraged/taken out of the game now. Coordinators have assumed these responsibilities, allowing only veterans -experienced in the 'system' -to occasionally audible out of a play.

[Adam]

ESPN is running an artilce that talks about how the number of top notch QBs is smaller than ever. If we assume this is true than why is it?

 

Could it be the win now mentality that is forced on coaches? If they do not win in a few seasons they are out the door so they in turn do not take the time to develop a Qb like you should.

 

Any other reasons anyone can think of as to why the level of QB play in the NFl is in a valley, and should this concern us at all about Trent?

Because coaches and QB's aren't given long enough, they are rushed onto the field, and free agency has destroyed the concept of keeping a team together (particularly the offensive line)

[Orton's Arm]

Points well taken, H_A. Joe Cool is one of the all time greats with the 'moxie' Stuck in Cincy alludes to. You mention Walsh -a Gillman disciple- who had the foresight to alter his offense to accomodate Joe's strengths. IMO, Fouts (another Gillman disciple) possessed the same great passing skills, even though his teams never made an SB. Walsh's innovations are still prevalent everywhere today. Even Kurt Warner looked all world for a couple seasons with the Rams. Taken out of that system, he can't even stay on the field now.

 

My basic point is the 'Field General' has been discouraged/taken out of the game now. Coordinators have assumed these responsibilities, allowing only veterans -experienced in the 'system' -to occasionally audible out of a play.

That point is well taken. And as someone pointed out earlier in this discussion, there's less stability than in the past. While the NFL is becoming more complex, you're seeing more changes in offensive systems, more player movement, etc. An offense is supposed to function like a well-oiled machine; and it's a lot easier to build such a machine when you have stability.