VOR Posted May 31, 2008 Posted May 31, 2008 Regardless of whether or not you think it's a right, as I've said, there are plenty of countries out there who provide universal coverage with a system that is NOT socialized medicine, and they do a pretty good job of it. People really need to understand that universal coverage DOES NOT EQUAL socialized medicine. At least, most Americans' idea of what socialized medicine is. Once we get past the knee-jerk responses, maybe this country can have a real dialogue. My post wasn't directed at you. But yhe main problem is that the drug, equipment, and insurance companies are operating under capitalistic forces, making hundreds of billions of dollars annually, while doctors and nurses continue to make less and people go uninsured. Unless those change first, nothing else will. And the chances of those changing are small.
NorthWesternBill Posted May 31, 2008 Posted May 31, 2008 Sorry guys, but before I can even start to discuss health care reform, I insist that we do away with the federal reserve bank, which is a private corporation and is unconstitutional. Private? Thats right. Private. It does no good to attempt to clip a tigers claws, when his mouth is ultimately the source of your demise.
5ths the charm Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 Nothing will happen, the pats are royalty in the NFL, Kraft is a big money guy like Jones and the other boys. Its never going to go anywhere. Even though it should have. The NFL loves winners or even the appearence of winning, winners get the calls, ultimately the NFL stands for Nothing For Losers. Remember that.
Spiderweb Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 Regardless of whether or not you think it's a right, as I've said, there are plenty of countries out there who provide universal coverage with a system that is NOT socialized medicine, and they do a pretty good job of it. People really need to understand that universal coverage DOES NOT EQUAL socialized medicine. At least, most Americans' idea of what socialized medicine is. Once we get past the knee-jerk responses, maybe this country can have a real dialogue. Rubes, you're making way too much sense. I guess many around here won't consider the system broken until they find themselves without insurance and in need of major surgery ($$$$). Fact is that Health Care insurers are far too powerful ($$$) for any meaningful change to happen anytime soon. Pretty darned sad too is that they have such clout with the Congress, Senate, and Presidents. I'll never, ever, understand the argument supporting status quo with respect to health care in the USA.
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 Sorry guys, but before I can even start to discuss health care reform, I insist that we do away with the federal reserve bank, which is a private corporation and is unconstitutional. Private? Thats right. Private. It does no good to attempt to clip a tigers claws, when his mouth is ultimately the source of your demise. So you want to go back to the way things were? When every so many years there would be a panic. How do you think we would have handled things now? I linked in the other forum how the Fed was born out of panic... Namely the 1907 panic... The funny thing is that most of us are so many generations removed to actually relate to how things existed then... And that we flipantly want to go back... Be careful what you wish for.
Catholic Guilt Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 I'm sorry - I thought I was on TwoBillsDrive.com a football board, not alangreenspan.com or hillaryclinton.com Please use the OT boards for off football topic discussions.
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 I'm sorry - I thought I was on TwoBillsDrive.com a football board, not alangreenspan.com or hillaryclinton.com Please use the OT boards for off football topic discussions. You are right, things have gotten off topic a bit... We better get this back on track and start talking about those cheating Pats* again... Afterall, we don't want people to think this isn't: www.HideMyHeadInTheSand.com
Catholic Guilt Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 I've tried to discuss the Pats situation on this board, sharing some interesting scoop from former players. Unfortunately my post got buried in a fight between Republican and Democratic Bills fans. I love the passion, but I'm so sick of hearing about politics. This place is my mini-escape from the daily grind and I don't want it overrun.
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 I've tried to discuss the Pats situation on this board, sharing some interesting scoop from former players. Unfortunately my post got buried in a fight between Republican and Democratic Bills fans. I love the passion, but I'm so sick of hearing about politics. This place is my mini-escape from the daily grind and I don't want it overrun. Fair enough... Sorry. But, you are making Ben Franklin roll over in his grave. Again... I am cool and will cease and desist on the "Big Board."
Catholic Guilt Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 I'm afraid Ben has rolled over in his grave a million times this year.
NorthWesternBill Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 So you want to go back to the way things were? When every so many years there would be a panic. How do you think we would have handled things now? I linked in the other forum how the Fed was born out of panic... Namely the 1907 panic... The funny thing is that most of us are so many generations removed to actually relate to how things existed then... And that we flipantly want to go back... Be careful what you wish for. I cannot pretend to understand the situation as it was in 1907, and in my post I did not offer any avenue from which to find a solution. I suppose the reality of how few people command so much power can temporarily paralyze my initiative to address more specific aspects of our financial and political systems. Its like cleaning the undercarriage of the '85 camry that you have already sold, as it sits in your driveway awaiting it's new owner.
PNW_Bills_Fan Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 I cannot pretend to understand the situation as it was in 1907, and in my post I did not offer any avenue from which to find a solution. I suppose the reality of how few people command so much power can temporarily paralyze my initiative to address more specific aspects of our financial and political systems. Its like cleaning the undercarriage of the '85 camry that you have already sold, as it sits in your driveway awaiting it's new owner. If we do a way with all health inssurence then everyone would be able to afford to go to the doctor. The middle man is making it so expensive.
AKC Posted June 3, 2008 Author Posted June 3, 2008 All that I ask is that you try to look at the huge problem we have with an open mind rather than strong emotions. It doesn’t seem to me that it would be much of a surprise that the money spent on health care in nations who make it illegal for private citizens to purchase their own insurance is lower than money spent on health care in the country with the very best health care delivery system in the world and the freedom to buy what you want. For goodness sakes- we have the choice to buy a product that doesn’t require we wait 9 months for an MRI- of course many of us do that! And we spend a lot more to do it. It doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to turn down a plate of chinchilla when there’s a restaurant serving fresh Chilean seabass right down the street. I’m happy to entertain this conversation- and I know you agree we should take it to another forum. If you open something up I’d be happy to join an open-minded discussion about the differences between “us and them”- information is better than magic and I surely have much to learn about health care around the world. I am currently a believer that it’s the people with a boat in the driveway and DirecTV on all 3 LCDs in their house who still refuse to buy health insurance that play a big part in driving our costs up, with them ending up in the emergency room getting “free government healthcare” when the kid gets the flu- but I have not looked into research supporting that. On the Costa Rica thing- I bring that up because most discussions on health care lapse into some idiocy about all the “great healthcare systems” that include the buckets of free Bacitracin offered by banana republics as part of their study “ideal models”. I recognize you aren’t doing that here. Let me know where we’re going and I’ll get over there.
IDBillzFan Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I am currently a believer that it’s the people with a boat in the driveway and DirecTV on all 3 LCDs in their house who still refuse to buy health insurance that play a big part in driving our costs up, with them ending up in the emergency room getting “free government healthcare” when the kid gets the flu- but I have not looked into research supporting that. I have never, in my life, known a person who could afford a boat (and by boat I suspect you mean "a boat" and not a canoe parked in the front yard next to the washing machine) without working full-time for a decent company, and virtually every decent company, and most of the indecent ones, offer full health care for him/her, and many times their family, as well. Or who would even be irresponsible enough to have his employer cover him, but not take advantage of adding his family out of his own pocket at a fairly miminal cost. Surely there are not enough people under that heading to create a problem. You want a good boat, you want the best TV on the best big screen, but if your daughter gets hurt, you'll hope a chosen-at-random whomever-is-on-call doctor will make everything okay? That's some funky thinking for a guy who lives in SoCal.
AKC Posted June 3, 2008 Author Posted June 3, 2008 I have never, in my life, known a person who could afford a boat (and by boat I suspect you mean "a boat" and not a canoe parked in the front yard next to the washing machine) without working full-time for a decent company, and virtually every decent company, and most of the indecent ones, offer full health care for him/her, and many times their family, as well. Or who would even be irresponsible enough to have his employer cover him, but not take advantage of adding his family out of his own pocket at a fairly miminal cost. Surely there are not enough people under that heading to create a problem. You want a good boat, you want the best TV on the best big screen, but if your daughter gets hurt, you'll hope a chosen-at-random whomever-is-on-call doctor will make everything okay? That's some funky thinking for a guy who lives in SoCal. I drove back hame late last night through Castaic, and I can guarantee you that that whether it falls to the rule or exception side, there's a whole lot of exactly what I'm talking about going on there. I think the Cal rule on getting the kids under the plan only applies to companies with 200 or more employees- so yeah, if you're working for somebody big enough to have an ERISA exempted SFHP, the chances are you're in pretty good shape. But at the same time, there's a lot of people working for smaller employers- or themselves- who are using the public nut for their "coverage".
Rubes Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I have never, in my life, known a person who could afford a boat (and by boat I suspect you mean "a boat" and not a canoe parked in the front yard next to the washing machine) without working full-time for a decent company, and virtually every decent company, and most of the indecent ones, offer full health care for him/her, and many times their family, as well. Or who would even be irresponsible enough to have his employer cover him, but not take advantage of adding his family out of his own pocket at a fairly miminal cost. Surely there are not enough people under that heading to create a problem. You want a good boat, you want the best TV on the best big screen, but if your daughter gets hurt, you'll hope a chosen-at-random whomever-is-on-call doctor will make everything okay? My next door neighbor is a self-employed plumber with a wife and two young daughters. He has a nice boat, a number of ATVs, two trucks and an SUV, a satellite dish, and certainly a number of other goodies. Didn't have any healthcare insurance of any kind until just recently, when the wife took a job at the county jail for the benefits.
Rubes Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 It doesn’t seem to me that it would be much of a surprise that the money spent on health care in nations who make it illegal for private citizens to purchase their own insurance is lower than money spent on health care in the country with the very best health care delivery system in the world and the freedom to buy what you want. For goodness sakes- we have the choice to buy a product that doesn’t require we wait 9 months for an MRI- of course many of us do that! And we spend a lot more to do it. It doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to turn down a plate of chinchilla when there’s a restaurant serving fresh Chilean seabass right down the street. I’m happy to entertain this conversation- and I know you agree we should take it to another forum. If you open something up I’d be happy to join an open-minded discussion about the differences between “us and them”- information is better than magic and I surely have much to learn about health care around the world. I am currently a believer that it’s the people with a boat in the driveway and DirecTV on all 3 LCDs in their house who still refuse to buy health insurance that play a big part in driving our costs up, with them ending up in the emergency room getting “free government healthcare” when the kid gets the flu- but I have not looked into research supporting that. Good response, I appreciate it. I think there's a lot more to the story, of course -- plenty of stories like my wife's patient who probably has cancer but refuses to get testing done because he has no insurance anymore, because he had it through his wife but lost it when she developed brain cancer and lost her job. It would make a good discussion over on OTW or PPP, I agree, and perhaps I'll get around to doing that. I do urge you (and everyone) to watch that Frontline special online. You don't have to wait 9 months for an MRI everywhere else.
Booster4324 Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 My next door neighbor is a self-employed plumber with a wife and two young daughters. He has a nice boat, a number of ATVs, two trucks and an SUV, a satellite dish, and certainly a number of other goodies. Didn't have any healthcare insurance of any kind until just recently, when the wife took a job at the county jail for the benefits. Yeah one of my friends doesn't have insurance for his family as he is self employed. The $800 a month for a family of four sorta discouraged him. Seeing as how he makes a decent living (45k in a 32k median income area) the prospect of spending 1/3 of his after tax money on insurance was somewhat daunting.
AKC Posted June 3, 2008 Author Posted June 3, 2008 You don't have to wait 9 months for an MRI You got that right! I'm lucky enough to live in the United States, where the health insurance I picked out and pay for myself allows me to get into an imaging center the same day any doctor prescribes a test for me. Nothing even close to that happens in any of the government Health Care systems referenced in the link you offered. Bottom line for me is that I don't want the government to run anything important- they've destroyed our public education system and I don't want the fastest and most innovative Health Care delivery system in the history to be their next victim. You might like the idea of people at the Post Office administering your health care- I have thousands of times more faith in Federal Express and UPS ;-)
IDBillzFan Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 My next door neighbor is a self-employed plumber with a wife and two young daughters. He has a nice boat, a number of ATVs, two trucks and an SUV, a satellite dish, and certainly a number of other goodies. Didn't have any healthcare insurance of any kind until just recently, when the wife took a job at the county jail for the benefits. Yeah one of my friends doesn't have insurance for his family as he is self employed. The $800 a month for a family of four sorta discouraged him. Seeing as how he makes a decent living (45k in a 32k median income area) the prospect of spending 1/3 of his after tax money on insurance was somewhat daunting. I honestly had no idea that seemingly responsible people would be that irresponsible. So I stand corrected. It reminds me of how many breadwinners with a family out there fail to have the proper life insurance or living trust to ensure whatever they have is left in the right hands when they pass. Yes, it's expensive, somewhat time-consuming and even a bit mind-twisting to get a trust in place, but if you have a spouse and child, and you don't have a trust, you're a freakin' moron.
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