Rubes Posted May 29, 2008 Posted May 29, 2008 I've got a friend- she's a surfer and has never had any "interest" in buying her own healthcare. She spent a while in Costa Rica where they have "Universal Coverage". She's back in the states being treated in our Los Angeles County system because she isn't "covered", and the injuries she's being treated for were sustained while under the "universal coverage" of the Costa Rica health care system. She suffers permanent disabilities from their failed and wretched treatment of a relatively simple leg fracture. I've been to Costa too- and with any chance to avoid being caught dead through their unbelievably horrible system I can promise you I would never allow them to do even the most basic procedure on me. The "Universal Coverage" hoax that gets talked about in America requires that you ignore the best health care delivery system in the world- the one here in the United States- the destination for almost everyone with the means to seek the finest care. And the reason our delivery system is second to none, and continues to be the most innovative in the world, is because we haven't destroyed it with the "Universal Coverage" model that is killing people worldwide every day. There is nowhere in the world that more "uncovered" people receive more top quality care than in the United States. If you don't mind I'd like to hold onto the reality of the best healthcare in the world versus being duped into the false portrayals of the system killing the Canadian economy and killing off Cubans who require only basic services to be brought back to health. AKC, I know you're a very strong-minded individual, and you have very firm opinions about many things, particularly this country. I don't expect I will have much luck convincing you otherwise. All that I ask is that you try to look at the huge problem we have with an open mind rather than strong emotions. I don't fully understand why you mix the concepts of universal coverage and high quality care. The fact that your friend went to a relatively poor country and got poor quality healthcare is entirely unrelated to the fact that the country has universal coverage. I have no illusions that, if I were in a relatively poor country, the quality of care I would receive there is necessarily any good, regardless of whether it's free. But the conclusion that the lousy quality care she received is somehow related to the fact that they have universal coverage is dubious at best, as is the notion that if this country adopted universal healthcare, the quality would somehow drop. If you truly believe our nation's healthcare system is second to none, I ask only that you look at the information out there that suggests this is far from reality. Regardless, there is no possible way we can sustain the current model. We can't go on keeping our heads in the sand. Universal coverage does not equal socialized medicine, nor does it necessarily spell the end of high quality healthcare. Michael Moore's crap aside, there was an excellent program on Frontline recently which looked at five different nations around the world that offer universal coverage, excellent quality healthcare, short wait times, high patient satisfaction, and much much lower expenditures than the US. No system is without its issues, of course, but these are systems that work, and they work well. You can watch the whole thing online if you like, just click the "Watch Online" link. I'll leave you with the final words of the program. You can decide for yourself if you just want to continue to ignore the problem. "What I've found is that it's not all socialized medicine out there. Many countries provide universal coverage with private insurance, private doctors, private hospitals. Using market ideas that might work for us. But here's the thing. These capitalist countries don't trust healthcare entirely to the free market. They all impose limits. There are three big ones. First, insurance companies must accept everyone, and can't make a profit on basic care. Second, everybody is mandated to buy insurance, and the government pays the premium for the poor. Third, doctors and hospitals have to accept one standard set of fixed prices. Can Americans accept ideas like that? Well, the fact is these foreign healthcare ideas aren't really foreign to us. For American veterans, healthcare is just like Britain's NHS. For seniors on Medicare, we're Taiwan. For working Americans with insurance, we're Germany. And for the tens of millions without health insurance, we're just another poor country. But almost all of us can agree that this fragmented healthcare mess cannot be ignored. The longer we leave it, the sicker it becomes, and the more expensive the cure."
Flbillsfan#1 Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 Not to hijack this thread, but it should be pointed out that universal health care does not automatically equate to waiting months for your procedure. There are a number of countries that have universal health care with little to no waiting times, or waiting times that equal that we see in this country. Even if the wait is months, people with NO INSURANCE in this country would gladly wait months & get treated eventually than get no treatment at all. The healthcare system in this country is SO Broken. INSURANCE COMPANIES, & CORPORATIONS who own hospitals & other medical facilities are Making $$$$ while people who work in Health care (including Doctors) are way underpaid & the people in this country are underinsured or have no insurance.
Flbillsfan#1 Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 I've got a friend- she's a surfer and has never had any "interest" in buying her own healthcare. She spent a while in Costa Rica where they have "Universal Coverage". She's back in the states being treated in our Los Angeles County system because she isn't "covered", and the injuries she's being treated for were sustained while under the "universal coverage" of the Costa Rica health care system. She suffers permanent disabilities from their failed and wretched treatment of a relatively simple leg fracture. I've been to Costa too- and with any chance to avoid being caught dead through their unbelievably horrible system I can promise you I would never allow them to do even the most basic procedure on me. The "Universal Coverage" hoax that gets talked about in America requires that you ignore the best health care delivery system in the world- the one here in the United States- the destination for almost everyone with the means to seek the finest care. And the reason our delivery system is second to none, and continues to be the most innovative in the world, is because we haven't destroyed it with the "Universal Coverage" model that is killing people worldwide every day. There is nowhere in the world that more "uncovered" people receive more top quality care than in the United States. If you don't mind I'd like to hold onto the reality of the best healthcare in the world versus being duped into the false portrayals of the system killing the Canadian economy and killing off Cubans who require only basic services to be brought back to health. If you think our health care system is second to none you are CRAZY. It is the WORST of all developed countries. A five year old girl in my church fell off a swing & broke her arm. It was not set properly, & they had to REBREAK it & set it again. Doesn't sound any better than Costa Rica to me.
ExiledInIllinois Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 Even if the wait is months, people with NO INSURANCE in this country would gladly wait months & get treated eventually than get no treatment at all. The healthcare system in this country is SO Broken. INSURANCE COMPANIES, & CORPORATIONS who own hospitals & other medical facilities are Making $$$$ while people who work in Health care (including Doctors) are way underpaid & the people in this country are underinsured or have no insurance. A guy a work just spent a day or so in the hospital to have two stints (or is the word stents?) put in... The bill was $53,000!
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 It's been days now... When will this HOT story break in the media ?
GG Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 Michael Moore's crap aside, there was an excellent program on Frontline recently which looked at five different nations around the world that offer universal coverage, excellent quality healthcare, short wait times, high patient satisfaction, and much much lower expenditures than the US. No system is without its issues, of course, but these are systems that work, and they work well. You can watch the whole thing online if you like, just click the "Watch Online" link. I'll leave you with the final words of the program. You can decide for yourself if you just want to continue to ignore the problem. First, insurance companies must accept everyone, and can't make a profit on basic care. Second, everybody is mandated to buy insurance, and the government pays the premium for the poor. Third, doctors and hospitals have to accept one standard set of fixed prices. A couple of questions, are there any medical advancements developed in these countries or are they piggying back on US medial & pharma devices & medications? What are people's expectations of medical care - to be treated as well as providers can or to be cured of everything and live forever?
Rubes Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 A couple of questions, are there any medical advancements developed in these countries or are they piggying back on US medial & pharma devices & medications? Many medical device and pharmaceutical companies are not U.S. companies. Many studies demonstrating the efficacy of these devices and drugs are performed in other countries. What are people's expectations of medical care - to be treated as well as providers can or to be cured of everything and live forever? I'm pretty sure it's to just take care of whatever problem they have, and no matter what, don't even think of making a mistake.
thebug Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 A guy a work just spent a day or so in the hospital to have two stints (or is the word stents?) put in... The bill was $53,000! My Father in law had 2 put in twice....the bill......$0.00 gotta love Canada!
stuckincincy Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 My Father in law had 2 put in twice....the bill......$0.00 gotta love Canada! Who pays for the development of your pharmaceuticals?...as long as you are passing around love. I'd hate to think that your love includes having others pay for your benefit...
Bmwolf21 Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 My father-in-law just underwent a heart transplant...it is the 5th time they have opened his chest in the last year, and his medical bills are well over $1M at this point and are approaching/possibly over $2M...the hospital wouldn't even put him on the transplant list until they had written verification from his health insurance that they would pay their share of the bills.
thebug Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 Who pays for the development of your pharmaceuticals?...as long as you are passing around love. I'd hate to think that your love includes having others pay for your benefit... Hey just because you guys pay inflated prices don't put the blame on us........
stuckincincy Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 Hey just because you guys pay inflated prices don't put the blame on us........ They are not necessarily inflated. Canada puts up trade barriers that tell pharmaceutical companies they can't sell their OTC stuff like toothpaste or mouthwash unless they stick their pharmaceutical costs on others. It's kinda like the Canadian content laws in entertainment. Here is a listing of pharmaceutical companies in Canada. Several are just subsidiaries of companies based in other nations.
stuckincincy Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 Hey just because you guys pay inflated prices don't put the blame on us........ They are not necessarily inflated. Canada puts up trade barriers that tell pharmaceutical companies they can't sell their OTC stuff like toothpaste or mouthwash unless they stick their pharmaceutical costs on others. It's kinda like the Canadian content laws in entertainment. Here is the pitifully small listing of pharmaceutical companies in Canada. Several are just subsidiaries of companies based in other nations. http://ca.dir.yahoo.com/Regional/Countries...harmaceuticals/
thebug Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 They are not necessarily inflated. Canada puts up trade barriers that tell pharmaceutical companies they can't sell their OTC stuff like toothpaste or mouthwash unless they stick their pharmaceutical costs on others. It's kinda like the Canadian content laws in entertainment. Here is the pitifully small listing of pharmaceutical companies in Canada. Several are just subsidiaries of companies based in other nations. http://ca.dir.yahoo.com/Regional/Countries...harmaceuticals/ Well would you expect little ol Canada to have as many as the almighty USA? and is that the reason my Father in law received his treatment without getting a bill?
Flbillsfan#1 Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 Who pays for the development of your pharmaceuticals?...as long as you are passing around love. I'd hate to think that your love includes having others pay for your benefit... Pharmaceutical companies are WELL PAID for the Drugs they develop & manufacture.
ExiledInIllinois Posted May 31, 2008 Posted May 31, 2008 My father-in-law just underwent a heart transplant...it is the 5th time they have opened his chest in the last year, and his medical bills are well over $1M at this point and are approaching/possibly over $2M...the hospital wouldn't even put him on the transplant list until they had written verification from his health insurance that they would pay their share of the bills. Exactly! They are already denying coverage and care... So what if we have socialized medicine and people "have to wait"... Seems your father-in-law is already waiting under the current system... Even know he has been opened up x5, it shouldn't matter.
VOR Posted May 31, 2008 Posted May 31, 2008 Medicine will never be socialized and it shouldn't be, because IMHO it's not a right. Too many people smoke, drink, eat/poorly, screw, and otherwise engage in activities/jobs with a high risk of disease/injury too much, while avoiding exercise and other healthy habits. Even congenital diseases shouldn't be my concern, since I'm no more responsible for helping to pay for inherited disease than I'm entitled to Donald Trumps' kids' inheritance. Maybe that's a harsh view, but that's life and survival of the fittest. I don't expect that if I've done something shady, or even if I'm wrongly accused of something, that I get free representation by the best lawyers out there.
BillnutinHouston Posted May 31, 2008 Posted May 31, 2008 Health care bla bla bla..........let's not forget the Pats* cheated.
Bmwolf21 Posted May 31, 2008 Posted May 31, 2008 Exactly! They are already denying coverage and care... So what if we have socialized medicine and people "have to wait"... Seems your father-in-law is already waiting under the current system... Even know he has been opened up x5, it shouldn't matter. Going through the timeline with my wife I think this latest opening (to get the donor heart) was the 4th (not 5th) time they cracked open his chest. I think the confusion came because he is having complications and they talked about having to go in again and do another procedure, which would be the 5th time. Either way that's a lot of trauma on the body in one year... They had to open his chest so many times because they thought the original procedure was going to repair the problem and prevent the transplant. It was a valve replacement - they implanted an artificial valve (1), which failed; they had to replace the valve with another artificial one (2); that valve calcified and his heart was enlarged, so they had to put him on the transplant list and they removed his original heart (3) and had him on an artificial heart; and finally he got the donor heart last Friday.
Rubes Posted May 31, 2008 Posted May 31, 2008 Medicine will never be socialized and it shouldn't be, because IMHO it's not a right. Regardless of whether or not you think it's a right, as I've said, there are plenty of countries out there who provide universal coverage with a system that is NOT socialized medicine, and they do a pretty good job of it. People really need to understand that universal coverage DOES NOT EQUAL socialized medicine. At least, most Americans' idea of what socialized medicine is. Once we get past the knee-jerk responses, maybe this country can have a real dialogue.
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