Renagotiating contracts

[VABills]

Peters while wanting a raise is nice, this guy likely would have been a two or three year TE on any other team and out of the league. The fact that the Bills carried him basically on practice squad, and limited ST duties for two years, all while retraining him, means that he ought to be giving the Bills the discount. He'll make the money when the current contract is up in three years, but right now he should just be thankful he's making 3 million per and has developed into one of the better tackles in the league, all because of patience, and training on the part of the Bills.

[Bill from NYC]

Peters while wanting a raise is nice, this guy likely would have been a two or three year TE on any other team and out of the league. The fact that the Bills carried him basically on practice squad, and limited ST duties for two years, all while retraining him, means that he ought to be giving the Bills the discount. He'll make the money when the current contract is up in three years, but right now he should just be thankful he's making 3 million per and has developed into one of the better tackles in the league, all because of patience, and training on the part of the Bills.

 

Your point is taken, but Peters is a pro bowl left tackle, who I think is the 3rd, but quite possibly the 4th highest (or 2nd lowest) paid blocker on the Bills.

When the 2 minute warning rolls around and the team is losing, it's all about the LT protecting the blind side. These are the players that matter most, and this is why they get drafted so early, and are never traded. There are very few humans who can be great LTs in the NFL.

Because the Bills do not choose to draft blockers, Walker, Fowler and Dockery are highly paid UFAs. Walker and Dockery can play, but neither is as good nor as important as Peters. Other than Butler, there are no comparitively young and inexpensive starters on the Bills OL. Nobody like a Chris Snee or Davin Joseph for instance.

 

In other words, the Bills would be true idiots to not give Peters a new deal. He needs a raise, and the Bills need to lock him up for a six or seven year deal. The Bills are overflowing with cap space, and season ticket sales are up, not to mention the revenue from Canada. Additionally, Trent is young and it would be great to break him in behind and all star LT. This would also make a huge difference to Lynch.

 

If they try to wait they will lose him ala Clements. Another team will sign him for 100 million dollars or so, and replacing him with an equally skilled player would be all but totally impossible, especially for the Bills. This kid WANTS to sign a new deal and play in Buffalo.

 

The very best thing the Bills can do right now for the team and the fans is to pay this young star and lock him up long term. Today would be nice.

[Bill from NYC]

So what are all of the NFL teams with starting quality backup LTs?

 

Valid point. That isn't the way it works.

 

When a LT (or for that matter RT) goes down, the offense generally has to pony up at least 1 player (TE of RB) to stay in and block. For years, the Bills starting OTs both sucked, AND the TEs generally couldn't block, but that is another issue entirely.

 

The issue at hand is that Peters needs to get paid, but it is even more important that he gets a long term contract.

[Arkady Renko]

Clearly you don't see it in baseball becasue the contracts are guaranteed and players rarely outperform their deals after they sign free agent contracts and they have little leverage before they become free agents. Their arbitration system works well for young players who are going above and beyond but to guarantee contracts in the NFL would screw up the whole system. The rate of injuries which either end careers or reduce a player's ability to perform at their previous level are far more common in football than in baseball. It would be chaotic.

 

I have heard this time and time again. Yet as time has gone on, football players have seen more and more of their contracts guaranteed especially under the new CBA. Yes injuries occur more often in the NFL, but why should this affect whether the contracts are guaranteed? These players are injured putting their bodies on the line for their teams. It is not because of a fault of theirs most often that they are hurt. Perhaps if teams had to eat contracts of injured players the might not be so quick to do things like loading up a player with painkillers to play with injuries they should not be playing with.

 

I doubt it would be chaotic. Every team would have the same risks and face the same problems. It would work itself out.

[Frez]

Here's the question: would you rather keep Peters of Evans? Can we afford fat contracts for both players?

 

PTR

 

 

Why can't we have them both? Other teams have more than one star on their team.

[VOR]

Valid point. That isn't the way it works.

He's asking o_w about all the alleged starting-quality backup LT's in the league, which the Bills lack and have failed to address for years. So far he's avoided the question ever since I first posed it.

[NewEra]

If we don't renegotiate his contract, you really have to second guess our front office. The offseason was great, but a failure to secure our only Pro-bowl caliber O-lineman in the last 15 years is baffling (sorry rueben, you weren't that good). If Trent Edwards is going to be a good pro, its going to be because he has blindside protection. resign him. now.

[silvermike]

They extended Schobel very early, and they'll extend Peters. But I bet we won't hear much about the negotiations until suddenly they announce their 8 year deal.

[ax4782]

Here's the question: would you rather keep Peters of Evans? Can we afford fat contracts for both players?

 

PTR

 

We have a ton of money under the cap and could make both of them a deal. However, look at the deal that the Giants just gave to their rookie left guard. He had played for a couple of seasons and had done well. They gave him an increase on his salary, which was comparable. Buffalo can pay them both and keep this newly fashioned offense together. We need both of these players or we are going to lose a huge part of the plan that we have put together to get this team back to competitiveness.

[Ramius]

Valid point. That isn't the way it works.

 

When a LT (or for that matter RT) goes down, the offense generally has to pony up at least 1 player (TE of RB) to stay in and block. For years, the Bills starting OTs both sucked, AND the TEs generally couldn't block, but that is another issue entirely.

 

The issue at hand is that Peters needs to get paid, but it is even more important that he gets a long term contract.

 

Thank you for being just another on the long list to disprove obie-wan's idiocy. He has been claiming that numerous teams in the NFL have starting quality backup LTs. But when asked to list these teams, he refuses to answer.

[obie_wan]

He's asking o_w about all the alleged starting-quality backup LT's in the league, which the Bills lack and have failed to address for years. So far he's avoided the question ever since I first posed it.

 

I kjnow this is difficult for you to comprehend.

 

My point is the Bills have failed for the last 10 years to draft OL. They have relied on trying to find diamonds in the late rounds or UDFA or by overspending on free agents (most of which have under-performed)

 

LT is the 2nd most important position on the team and should be treated as such.

 

Although the Bills finally conceded their past strategy was a huge failiure and overspend to buy an OL last year, they have no one on the team capable of backing up LT. It would seem prudent based on the last 10 years of history, that the Bills could have squeezed an OL pick into the draft prior to the 7th round. They can't even move Butler to LT in an emergency because replacing him with Preston of the Yukon creates a black hole in the middle of the line.

 

The Bills are willing to rely on Chambers, Gaddis and converted TE Matt Murphy to take on the premier pass rushers in the NFL if Peters gets hurt (which he is right now). If forced to play, the Bills will need to shift the TE help from Walker to the left side and keep backs in as well which will totally cripple the offense again.

 

It is clear you can't totally replace Peters with a like talent.

 

Price was quite functional in this role a few years back, but they have nothing now.

 

you, Ramius and the boys agree wholeheartedly agree with this short sighted philosophy of ignoring the OL - unfortunately, I disagree.

[LabattBlue]

This is probably the first guy I've seen who I feel actually has out performed his current deal.

Pay him and keep him!

If you believe this is the first time a player is outperforming his contract, you are dreaming. I'm not even going to bother to provide examples except to say it happens all the time.

 

Should Peters have his contract renegotiated in the next year or two? Absolutely! Does it have to happen ASAP? I don't see what the urgent need is. Put another solid year together and then go see Brandon? He is three years removed from being a converted TE who nobody was even sure was going to make the roster. Then he got a brand spanking new contract less than two years ago. If they give him a new contract now and he makes 1st team all-pro this year, do they rip it up again?

[VOR]

I kjnow this is difficult for you to comprehend.

 

My point is the Bills have failed for the last 10 years to draft OL. They have relied on trying to find diamonds in the late rounds or UDFA or by overspending on free agents (most of which have under-performed)

 

LT is the 2nd most important position on the team and should be treated as such.

 

Although the Bills finally conceded their past strategy was a huge failiure and overspend to buy an OL last year, they have no one on the team capable of backing up LT. It would seem prudent based on the last 10 years of history, that the Bills could have squeezed an OL pick into the draft prior to the 7th round. They can't even move Butler to LT in an emergency because replacing him with Preston of the Yukon creates a black hole in the middle of the line.

 

The Bills are willing to rely on Chambers, Gaddis and converted TE Matt Murphy to take on the premier pass rushers in the NFL if Peters gets hurt (which he is right now). If forced to play, the Bills will need to shift the TE help from Walker to the left side and keep backs in as well which will totally cripple the offense again.

 

It is clear you can't totally replace Peters with a like talent.

 

Price was quite functional in this role a few years back, but they have nothing now.

 

you, Ramius and the boys agree wholeheartedly agree with this short sighted philosophy of ignoring the OL - unfortunately, I disagree.

Why can't you answer the question? Name even just ONE backup LT on another team that could be a starter elsewhere, or where the team wouldn't suffer a significant drop in production. I'll give you the counter example of the Colts, who had NO backup plan for Tarik Glenn's retirement, and had to draft and start a 2nd round LT last year.

[Dan]

Your point is taken, but Peters is a pro bowl left tackle, who I think is the 3rd, but quite possibly the 4th highest (or 2nd lowest) paid blocker on the Bills.

When the 2 minute warning rolls around and the team is losing, it's all about the LT protecting the blind side. These are the players that matter most, and this is why they get drafted so early, and are never traded. There are very few humans who can be great LTs in the NFL.

Because the Bills do not choose to draft blockers, Walker, Fowler and Dockery are highly paid UFAs. Walker and Dockery can play, but neither is as good nor as important as Peters. Other than Butler, there are no comparitively young and inexpensive starters on the Bills OL. Nobody like a Chris Snee or Davin Joseph for instance.

 

In other words, the Bills would be true idiots to not give Peters a new deal. He needs a raise, and the Bills need to lock him up for a six or seven year deal. The Bills are overflowing with cap space, and season ticket sales are up, not to mention the revenue from Canada. Additionally, Trent is young and it would be great to break him in behind and all star LT. This would also make a huge difference to Lynch.

 

If they try to wait they will lose him ala Clements. Another team will sign him for 100 million dollars or so, and replacing him with an equally skilled player would be all but totally impossible, especially for the Bills. This kid WANTS to sign a new deal and play in Buffalo.

 

The very best thing the Bills can do right now for the team and the fans is to pay this young star and lock him up long term. Today would be nice.

While I fundamentally agree with most everything you're saying, let me just play devil's advocate for a moment... OK, so the Bills 2 years (?) ago saw Peters' potential and signed him to a nice contract extension. At that time he had done very little other than show promise. So, now with several years left on his contract, we should renegotiate, give him a raise, and presumably lock him up for a longer term. So, what happens, in 2 years when we sign a new Center at a mega salary (because salaries always escalate) and Peters wants yet another raise and new deal, because he's still the best linemen. Do we throw out his deal and start again?

 

I guess my point is.. at what point do players and teams honor the contracts that they sign?

 

On another note, wouldn't it actually be in Peters best interest to wait a year or two and then re-sign when the salaries have skyrocketed and he's a perennial probowler? Granted its a risk on his part, but isn't that why he's kinda in this situation to begin with. He signed a contract 2 years ago before realizing his true potential.

[obie_wan]

Why can't you answer the question? Name even just ONE backup LT on another team that could be a starter elsewhere, or where the team wouldn't suffer a significant drop in production. I'll give you the counter example of the Colts, who had NO backup plan for Tarik Glenn's retirement, and had to draft and start a 2nd round LT last year.

The following is a summary of the Bills drafts for the last decade from 1999-2008. It may be more relevant to start in 2001 since that is when the current draft team took over. However, the philosophy of ignoring the OL did not change. Note that the inability to identify quality OL is a critical

problem systemic to the organization. The Bills need to find someone who has a clue as to what attributes make a good OL because they have been failing miserably for 10 years.- and have basically given up trying to draft OL starters. Maybe Kugler is the answer.

 

Note that over the last 10 years the Bills have had 44 picks in the first 4 rounds. Even though the OL makes up 23% of the starters (5/22), the Bills have used a whopping 3 picks over 10 years on the OL in the first 4 rounds. The lone 1st rounder was total bust Fat Mike Williams. Jennings was a quality pick and is evidence of what can be discovered with mid-round picks. Preston of the Yukon has proven his incompetence on the field, although maybe he is hiding his greatness for future play at C.

 

With only UDFA Chambers, Gaddis and TE convert Matt Murphy on the roster, the Bills in 2008 again failed to pro-actively the LT spot earlier than the 7th round.

 

Maybe Ramius and VOR can find a few NFL playoff teams that have a worse record than the Bills in stocking the OL.

 

I couldn’t from the teams below.Note the Giants have drafted the fewest OL – could there be a connection with the great McNally overvaluing his players and not pushing for reimforcements?

 

# of OL picked in rounds1-4 % of picks on OL Rnd 1-4 % of picks on OL Rnd 1-7

 

BILLS 3 7% 14%

 

BEARS 6 13% 14%

CHARGERS 5 13% 21%

COLTS 5 12% 16%

COWBOYS 7 17% 18%

EAGLES 9 19% 18%

GIANTS 4 11% 12%

JAGUARS 7 17% 15%

PACKERS 6 12% 17%

PANTHERS 8 20% 21%

PATS 7 16% 16%

RAMS 6 13% 19%

SEAHAWKS 9 20% 17%

STEELERS 9 21% 19%

 

 

 

1-4 5-7 Total Picks Starters Picks Rnd 1-4 Total Picks

 

CB 6 5 11 9% 14% 13%

S 4 2 6 9% 9% 7%

 

OL 3 9 12 23% 7% 14%

QB 2 0 2 5% 5% 2%

RB,WR 12 9 21 18% 27% 25%

DL & LB 13 13 26 32% 30% 31%

TE 4 3 7 5% 9% 8%

44 41 85 100% 100% 100%

 

 

 

 

Here are the bills picks:

 

2008 - Buffalo Bills

Rd Player Position

1 Leodis McKelvin CB

2 James Hardy WR

3 Chris Ellis DE

4 Reggie Corner DB

4 Derek Fine TE

5 Alvin Bowen OLB

6 Xavier Omon RB

7 Demetrius Bell T

7 Steve Johnson WR

7 Kennard Cox CB

2007 - Buffalo Bills

Rd Player Position

1 Marshawn Lynch RB

2 Paul Posluszny MLB

3 Trent Edwards QB

4 Dwayne Wright RB

6 John Wendling DB

7 Derek Schouman FB

7 C.J. Ah You DE

2006 - Buffalo Bills

Rd Player Position

1 Donte Whitner SS

1 John McCargo DT

3 Ashton Youboty CB

4 Ko Simpson FS

5 Kyle Williams DT

5 Brad Butler T

6 Keith Ellison OLB

7 Terrance Pennington T

7 Aaron Merz G

2005 - Buffalo Bills

Rd Player Position

2 Roscoe Parrish WR

3 Kevin Everett TE

4 Duke Preston C

5 Eric King DB

6 Justin Geisinger G

7 Lionel Gates RB

2004 - Buffalo Bills

Rd Player Position

1 Lee Evans WR

1 J.P. Losman QB

3 Tim Anderson DT

4 Tim Euhus TE

7 Dylan McFarland T

7 Jonathan Smith WR

2003 - Buffalo Bills

Rd Player Position

1 Willis McGahee RB

2 Chris Kelsay DE

3 Angelo Crowell LB

4 Terrence McGee DB

4 Sam Aiken WR

5 Ben Sobieski G

6 Lauvale Sape DT

7 Mario Haggan LB

2002 - Buffalo Bills

Rd Player Position

1 Mike Williams T

2 Josh Reed WR

2 Ryan Denney DE

3 Coy Wire SS

5 Justin Bannan DT

6 Kevin Thomas CB

7 Mike Pucillo G

7 Rodney Wright --

7 Jarrett Ferguson --

7 Dominique Stevenson LB

2001 - Buffalo Bills

Rd Player Position

1 Nate Clements CB

2 Aaron Schobel DE

2 Travis Henry HB

3 Ron Edwards DT

3 Jonas Jennings T

4 Brandon Spoon MLB

5 Marques Sullivan T

6 Tony Driver DB

6 Dan O'Leary TE

6 Jimmy Williams CB

7 Reggie Germany WR

7 Tyrone Robertson DT

2000 - Buffalo Bills

Rd Player Position

1 Erik Flowers DE

2 Travares Tillman FS

3 Corey Moore OLB

4 Avion Black WR

5 Sammy Morris RB

6 Leif Larsen DT

7 Drew Haddad WR

7 DaShon Polk LB

1999 - Buffalo Bills

Rd Player Position

1 Antoine Winfield CB

2 Peerless Price WR

3 Shawn Bryson RB

4 Keith Newman LB

4 Bobby Collins TE

5 Jay Foreman LB

6 Armon Hatcher DB

7 Sheldon Jackson TE

7 Bryce Fisher DT

[Ramius]

The following is a summary of the Bills drafts for the last decade from 1999-2008. It may be more relevant to start in 2001 since that is when the current draft team took over. However, the philosophy of ignoring the OL did not change. Note that the inability to identify quality OL is a critical

problem systemic to the organization. The Bills need to find someone who has a clue as to what attributes make a good OL because they have been failing miserably for 10 years.- and have basically given up trying to draft OL starters. Maybe Kugler is the answer.

 

Note that over the last 10 years the Bills have had 44 picks in the first 4 rounds. Even though the OL makes up 23% of the starters (5/22), the Bills have used a whopping 3 picks over 10 years on the OL in the first 4 rounds. The lone 1st rounder was total bust Fat Mike Williams. Jennings was a quality pick and is evidence of what can be discovered with mid-round picks. Preston of the Yukon has proven his incompetence on the field, although maybe he is hiding his greatness for future play at C.

 

With only UDFA Chambers, Gaddis and TE convert Matt Murphy on the roster, the Bills in 2008 again failed to pro-actively the LT spot earlier than the 7th round.

 

Maybe Ramius and VOR can find a few NFL playoff teams that have a worse record than the Bills in stocking the OL.

 

The question doesnt involve the Bills and their OL drafting tendencies. Just answer the question.

 

You claimed that numerous NFL teams have starting quality backup LTs. Which teams are they and which backups are they?

[Dan]

The following is a summary of the Bills drafts for the last decade from 1999-2008. It may be more relevant to start in 2001 since that is when the current draft team took over. However, the philosophy of ignoring the OL did not change. Note that the inability to identify quality OL is a critical

problem systemic to the organization. The Bills need to find someone who has a clue as to what attributes make a good OL because they have been failing miserably for 10 years.- and have basically given up trying to draft OL starters. Maybe Kugler is the answer.

Firstly, you're making the same mistake of lumping the current FO in with past ones. Yes, many of the names are the same, but there's plenty of reason to believe that TD ran a completely different FO than did Marv. Just as I'll go out on a limb and say that Brandon is running things differently than Marv did. I don't see how you can blame Brandon or Modrak or anyone else for the way TD ran the team. To say in 2001 or 2003 we did something and it reflects poorly on the current FO, is fundamentally flawed logic.

 

Furthermore, as stated earlier, the current Bills' FO did address the Oline, quite seriously. They just did it via FA, not through the draft. But, they appear to have gotten better at figuring out what attributes make a good OL, because the OL was not the weakest unit on the team last year. No matter how they got the players, you have to acknowledge that, right?

 

OK, we don't have great depth. I'll give you that. However, what would you rather have (or perhaps more important, what's best for the team in 2008)... the defense continually getting burned on 3rd and long, getting ran on all day long, Trent not having any weapons; but several great OL prospects sitting on the bench just in case Peters gets injured? Or shore up all the teams deficient areas and have very average to below average OL backups sitting on the bench just in case Peters gets injured?

[Dibs]

Here's the question: would you rather keep Peters of Evans? Can we afford fat contracts for both players?

 

PTR

.....and what if Edwards excels? Even OK money for a QB now is mega-dollars ahead of what he is earning now.

I see no reason why we cannot re-sign Evans, Peters & Crowell......and in a couple of years re-sign Edwards to a mega deal if it is appropriate. We certainly have enough cap room for this......and the way the C2C is eating tomorrows cap(&C2C) dollars today, we should be well positioned to sign Edwards down the road. Other teams manage to sign their important players...why can't we?

 

I don't know what the cap(or cash) hit is this season for Evans & Peters but the increase from that is the real money that comes of the cap(&C2C). If Peters is on $3mil......and we bump him to $8mil......that is only $5mil difference.

 

IMO our cap level has been low in recent times because we have not had the 'star' level players to fork the money out on. Now that we have some players we want to keep longterm.....the money is there to spend. Crowell may leave(value/money reasons) but Peters is an absolute 'must keep' player and Evans(due to the re-build timeline) is also a 'must keep'.....just as if Edwards pans out he will be a 'must keep'.

[BillsWatch]

Why does the NFL Players Association think it is "ok" for players to hold out with three years left on contract but NFL is being unfair to want to renegotiate agreement with a specify clause allowing it?