National Fingerprint Registry

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http://www.openmarket.org/2008/05/23/finge...n-housing-bill/

 

Wasn't the Democratic led Congress was supposed to restore our civil liberties

 

Love hwo they snuck this into another bill to get it passed with little notice

[Alaska Darin]

Democrats and Republicans are very different. Where' Molson? Never mind.

[KD in CA]

Yet earlier this week, a measure creating a federal fingerprint registry totally unrelated to national security passed a U.S. Senate committee almost without notice. The legislation would require thousands of individuals working even tangentially in the mortgage and real estate industries — and not suspected of anything — to send their prints to the feds. The database and fingerprint mandates were tucked into housing and foreclosure assistance bills that on Tuesday passed the Senate Banking Committee by a vote of 19-2.

 

Mortgage and real estates industries??

 

I guess this passes for "doing something" about the mortgage crisis (you know, cause letting stupid people learn the hard way not to sign up for mortgages they can't afford clearly is not an option).

[justnzane]

for real estate agents? I thought it was a little iffy being a teacher and getting printed, but I understood why. However, I don't think many real estate agents are going to be sleeping with underage clients

[Chef Jim]

Mortgage and real estates industries??

 

I guess this passes for "doing something" about the mortgage crisis (you know, cause letting stupid people learn the hard way not to sign up for mortgages they can't afford clearly is not an option).

 

Or keeping people that have been convicted of mortgage related fraud from getting back into the industry. I would love to see the mortgage industry as regulated as mine.

[DC Tom]

for real estate agents? I thought it was a little iffy being a teacher and getting printed, but I understood why. However, I don't think many real estate agents are going to be sleeping with underage clients

 

Knowing some of the fraud that my wife has seen and dealt with in real estate (e.g., a guy who was convicted of embezzling five million dollars several years ago from his title company is somehow now back in business despite being banned from ever working in real estate again), I can see this being occasionally useful. It would mean my wife would have to be registered, but since she deals with millions of dollars daily and already has to be bonded, it does make a certain amount of sense. For the vast majority of situations, though... . Real estate agents? What the !@#$?

[GG]

Knowing some of the fraud that my wife has seen and dealt with in real estate (e.g., a guy who was convicted of embezzling five million dollars several years ago from his title company is somehow now back in business despite being banned from ever working in real estate again), I can see this being occasionally useful. It would mean my wife would have to be registered, but since she deals with millions of dollars daily and already has to be bonded, it does make a certain amount of sense. For the vast majority of situations, though... . Real estate agents? What the !@#$?

 

Natural response of Dr. Mortgages of the world, because you can't simply acknowledge that boom time bring out the swindlers and that many people are simply suckers for the snake oil salesmen.

[Chef Jim]

Knowing some of the fraud that my wife has seen and dealt with in real estate (e.g., a guy who was convicted of embezzling five million dollars several years ago from his title company is somehow now back in business despite being banned from ever working in real estate again), I can see this being occasionally useful. It would mean my wife would have to be registered, but since she deals with millions of dollars daily and already has to be bonded, it does make a certain amount of sense. For the vast majority of situations, though... . Real estate agents? What the !@#$?

RE agents are not susceptible to fraud and/or collusion?

[DC Tom]

RE agents are not susceptible to fraud and/or collusion?

 

Susceptible, sure, who isn't in theory. But do they have the opportunity? Not that I can think of, really. Most of their job is matching buyer to properties or advertising properties for sale, for which they get a commission. Money generally does not pass through their hands, which limits the opportunities for fraud. So what could they do? Dishonestly list a house? The most they could do (and DO do, at least in this area) is partner with mortgage brokers and/or title companies to funnel business their way, and even then when it's illegal (for example, real estate agencies will frequently demand "commissions" - literally, kickbacks - from my wife's company for giving them business on a per-closing basis) the money involved is a pittance - a couple hundred on a several hundred thousand dollar transaction.

 

Other than that...real estate agents don't function much differently from car salesmen. How much opportunity does a car salesman have to commit fraud? And how effective are fingerprint records going to be in fighting that?

[erynthered]

Susceptible, sure, who isn't in theory. But do they have the opportunity? Not that I can think of, really. Most of their job is matching buyer to properties or advertising properties for sale, for which they get a commission. Money generally does not pass through their hands, which limits the opportunities for fraud. So what could they do? Dishonestly list a house? The most they could do (and DO do, at least in this area) is partner with mortgage brokers and/or title companies to funnel business their way, and even then when it's illegal (for example, real estate agencies will frequently demand "commissions" - literally, kickbacks - from my wife's company for giving them business on a per-closing basis) the money involved is a pittance - a couple hundred on a several hundred thousand dollar transaction.

 

Other than that...real estate agents don't function much differently from car salesmen. How much opportunity does a car salesman have to commit fraud? And how effective are fingerprint records going to be in fighting that?

 

 

Oh. They can get away with alot. Not sure if fraud would be the word though.

[Chef Jim]

Susceptible, sure, who isn't in theory. But do they have the opportunity? Not that I can think of, really. Most of their job is matching buyer to properties or advertising properties for sale, for which they get a commission. Money generally does not pass through their hands, which limits the opportunities for fraud. So what could they do? Dishonestly list a house? The most they could do (and DO do, at least in this area) is partner with mortgage brokers and/or title companies to funnel business their way, and even then when it's illegal (for example, real estate agencies will frequently demand "commissions" - literally, kickbacks - from my wife's company for giving them business on a per-closing basis) the money involved is a pittance - a couple hundred on a several hundred thousand dollar transaction.

 

Other than that...real estate agents don't function much differently from car salesmen. How much opportunity does a car salesman have to commit fraud? And how effective are fingerprint records going to be in fighting that?

 

Anytime someone's pay is based on the price of what they're selling you've got opportunities for problems. When you rely on your RE agent for your offer and counter-offer price you've got issues. Is it fraud? No. Is it unethical...absolutely! Anytime you can weed out unethical people out of that type of industry the better. And one way to weed them out is through detailed background checks.

 

BTW not many car salesman selling cars with a price tag of $750k?

[KD in CA]

Or keeping people that have been convicted of mortgage related fraud from getting back into the industry. I would love to see the mortgage industry as regulated as mine.

 

There are plenty of ways to keep convicted felons out of reentering any industry. The best one is prison. Or fuggin' cut their hands off or beat them to death with baseball bats like Joe Pesci in Casino for all I care. But fingerprinting the other 99% seems like a pretty absurd overreaction to the problem.

[Chilly]

But fingerprinting the other 99% seems like a pretty absurd overreaction to the problem.

 

And we have a WINNAR

[Chef Jim]

There are plenty of ways to keep convicted felons out of reentering any industry. The best one is prison. Or fuggin' cut their hands off or beat them to death with baseball bats like Joe Pesci in Casino for all I care. But fingerprinting the other 99% seems like a pretty absurd overreaction to the problem.

 

We're not talking about any industry. We're talking about an industry the requires a high level of trust in the people you're working with. But I'm with ya on the cutting off the hands thing.

[DC Tom]

Anytime someone's pay is based on the price of what they're selling you've got opportunities for problems. When you rely on your RE agent for your offer and counter-offer price you've got issues. Is it fraud? No. Is it unethical...absolutely! Anytime you can weed out unethical people out of that type of industry the better. And one way to weed them out is through detailed background checks.

 

BTW not many car salesman selling cars with a price tag of $750k?

 

And not many people shop for cars without knowing roughly the value of the cars they're looking at. Ditto houses. Even if buying and selling agents are colluding to try to jack up the price, there's a realistic limit - that being the point where even the dullest knife in the drawer starts to ask "Why is this dinky little shithole of a house going for $450k?" Certainly unethical, may even be fraud...but we're talking maybe an 8% mark-up against the loss of future business and license when they're found out.

 

Contrast that to what my wife does...she has access to millions of dollars in escrow that, were she to transfer it off-shore and take off, no one would notice for likely months. Or the jackasses in the DC land office several months back, who were skimming real estate tax payments out of the DC accounts to their own personal accounts to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

Now tell me...which risk of fraud and loss calls for the more stringent oversight? Precisely why should we fingerprint agents because...because they work for commission? Versus the several other people involved in a real estate transaction who, unlike the agents, actually have the money pass through their hands? Hell, a better start than freakin' fingerprinting would be to enforce the regulations that already exist. Lenders are required by law to provide the loan terms to the buyer 72 hours before closing...most will wait until an hour before, to avoid the buyer shopping around. And Countrywide was reknown for not disclosing terms until after the closing. Think anyone ever gets in trouble for that?

 

Real estate is a seriously screwed-up industry. I've seen it from the perspectives now of a buyer, seller, investor, lender, lawyer, closer, and crook (seriously...I know how to steal a house. I know people it's been done to. It's easy.) But it's not screwed up in any way that an identity database is somehow going to address any of the problems.

[Chef Jim]

And not many people shop for cars without knowing roughly the value of the cars they're looking at. Ditto houses. Even if buying and selling agents are colluding to try to jack up the price, there's a realistic limit - that being the point where even the dullest knife in the drawer starts to ask "Why is this dinky little shithole of a house going for $450k?" Certainly unethical, may even be fraud...but we're talking maybe an 8% mark-up against the loss of future business and license when they're found out.

 

Contrast that to what my wife does...she has access to millions of dollars in escrow that, were she to transfer it off-shore and take off, no one would notice for likely months. Or the jackasses in the DC land office several months back, who were skimming real estate tax payments out of the DC accounts to their own personal accounts to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

Now tell me...which risk of fraud and loss calls for the more stringent oversight? Precisely why should we fingerprint agents because...because they work for commission? Versus the several other people involved in a real estate transaction who, unlike the agents, actually have the money pass through their hands? Hell, a better start than freakin' fingerprinting would be to enforce the regulations that already exist. Lenders are required by law to provide the loan terms to the buyer 72 hours before closing...most will wait until an hour before, to avoid the buyer shopping around. And Countrywide was reknown for not disclosing terms until after the closing. Think anyone ever gets in trouble for that?

 

Real estate is a seriously screwed-up industry. I've seen it from the perspectives now of a buyer, seller, investor, lender, lawyer, closer, and crook (seriously...I know how to steal a house. I know people it's been done to. It's easy.) But it's not screwed up in any way that an identity database is somehow going to address any of the problems.

 

I agree with you that the agent is the least likely to create fraud, but the temptation is there. Fingerprinting has nothing to do with enforcing regulations. It prevents people that have been convicted of certain types of crimes from getting into certain financial industries. Those types of people are more likely try and figure out a way to commit fraud. I'm involved in millions of dollars worth of transfers each and every month most of which never touches my hands but because I'm in a position of trust and knowledge people do what I tell them. Therefore I went through an extensive background check and was fingerprinted. Real estate is a seriously screwed up industry are your words not mine. You said you know how to steal a house. Do you have your realtors license? If not how easily could you go out and get one? Is fingerprinting going to erase that knowledge you have on how to steal a house? No, but you're not the criminal type (I think). But if there was someone who had committed a felony in the past, what is there to stop them utilizing that knowledge to do just that.

 

Oh BTW what's your wife's number?

[KD in CA]

We're not talking about any industry. We're talking about an industry the requires a high level of trust in the people you're working with. But I'm with ya on the cutting off the hands thing.

 

I don't see that at all. Who are you trusting when buying a house? Unless you are paying them, obviously the agent isn't working in your best interests (at least financially). It's up to the individual to negotiate the price of a house, and there is tons of info available to help you do that intelligently. And ditto for getting a mortgage -- pretty easy to compare the terms of a mortgage with the prevailing rates you can find online or in the paper or with a phone call to any local bank.

 

And to top it off, you need to hire an attorney anyway to watch your back. I guess you have to trust him, but if your attorney screws you you've got a slam dunk lawsuit.

 

I'm sure there are people slick enough to collude with others and work up some scams in RE, but that is a tiny minority. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that 98+% of the people who have been foreclosed on this year at at fault for their own situation as a result of their own lack of financial due diligence.