MarkAF43 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I get that to a point and would agree in other sports that holding out is pretty low. But not in football. It is a cut throat business and Peters has earned a new contract based on his current play and position. all sports are cut throat..... why is football any different? and not just Peters, but if a player has a horrible year, why shouldn't the owner be able to say, well you really sucked this year so we are gonna ask you to take a pay cut until you get better? it doesn't happen and that's the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan Trapped in Pats Land Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 all sports are cut throat..... why is football any different? and not just Peters, but if a player has a horrible year, why shouldn't the owner be able to say, well you really sucked this year so we are gonna ask you to take a pay cut until you get better? it doesn't happen and that's the problem Non guaranteed contracts. Every other major US league has guaranteed contracts. That's why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 1) Chad Johnson is not holding out because of money issues. He has baby mommas and a lawsuit pursuing him hot 'n heavy. As well as an immense measure of self-importance. Did you watch the recent replay of the CIN-BUF game? He short-armed and intentionally mis-ran routes, then decided as he was hitting the turf as Whitner closed in, he would be injured. Then was transported to a hospital, where not a thing was found, and miraculously bounced back, and was at practice. If you think this cat is a shining knight valiantly protesting the CIN organization, think again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Non guaranteed contracts. Every other major US league has guaranteed contracts. That's why. ok, so holding out when your contract isn't guaranteed makes no sense, but he indicated that it is pretty low to do it in other sports but not football, besides it being a non guaranteed contract why is it not low to do it in football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I don't totally agree with this its like most of us with our regular day to day jobs, i know in my case i am an at will employee, which means they can terminate my contract and end my employment for no real reason. However I don't have the ability to not work and demand more money if I feel i am not being paid enough, so I think the players should be required to play out their contract regardless of feelings or some idiot agent whispering sweet nothings into that players ear, telling him "holdout and we will get you to a new team and a new bigger fatter contract that in a year or 2 we can start this all over again. Play it out and then ask for more money If you are the most important employee of your company, surely you can do that and have the company come showing up with a new offer letter. I have seen this in my years of working and is nothing new to the NFL. Say if Steve Johnson lets Dick know tomorrow that he is not coming to work, let us see what Dick does to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Good points, I guess it was more my own beliefs, I know i was raised to take what is given to me and if you want more wait until that time comes and then ask for more.... I get the supply and demand portion of it, just basically the way i was raised i would not be demanding a new deal when i am still playing out an older one that i may have signed one or 2 years ago--- to me it's stupid.... just my opinion Mark, the difference is you can have a 30 year career and wait out the 2 years if you chose to. However, for an NFL player his career life span is 5-10 years for the best playres. They got to make the best of what they can during that period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 If you are the most important employee of your company, surely you can do that and have the company come showing up with a new offer letter. I have seen this in my years of working and is nothing new to the NFL. Say if Steve Johnson lets Dick know tomorrow that he is not coming to work, let us see what Dick does to him. good point, and i have caught flack for saying that, it's cool I understand that..... but to me it just doesn't make sense, maybe my sense of morals and whatnot comes straight from the 50's but i just think it's a bunch of crap. And I'm not naive enough to believe it doesn't happen, I know it does, i just think it's crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Mark, the difference is you can have a 30 year career and wait out the 2 years if you chose to. However, for an NFL player his career life span is 5-10 years for the best playres. They got to make the best of what they can during that period. good point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 He has baby mommas and a lawsuit pursuing him hot 'n heavy. As well as an immense measure of self-importance. Did you watch the recent replay of the CIN-BUF game? He short-armed and intentionally mis-ran routes, then decided as he was hitting the turf as Whitner closed in, he would be injured. Then was transported to a hospital, where not a thing was found, and miraculously bounced back, and was at practice. If you think this cat is a shining knight valiantly protesting the CIN organization, think again... Cincy, I think you're a little confused here. I'm not supporting Chad Johnson in ay way. I really used to like the guy and think he is being an @ss for this. But the point was that he is not holding out for money. He just wants out of Cincy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Ugh. I HATE when I hear this argument. Some of you people JUST DONT GET IT. To have a contract, BOTH sides agree. Part of NFL contracts is a clause that states that the MANAGEMENT can TERMINATE the agreement at any time and NOT pay the player anymore. (See Shawn Alexander). This means that contracts are NOT guaranteed. Because of this, the union has added a clause into the contract which states that the PLAYER can REFUSE TO PLAY and DEMAND renegotiation at any time should he feel he is not being properly accommodated financially. Its a two-way street. Neither side HAS to live up to their contractual obligations because the contract itself gives them the right not to. I should also mention you do NOT see this in baseball. Why? Because contracts ARE guaranteed. We can have this conversation on which method is better all day long...but I would assume most of us on this board are happy we are not still paying Drew Bledsoe and Mike Williams... (note, read up on Mo Vaughn's contract with the Mets if you want to see how bad guaranteed contracts could be for a franchise..ESPECIALLY Buffalo) you are forgetting a very important element that is guaranteed to the player - signing bonus........regardless of whether the player meets, exceeds, or does not reach the expected level of performance the team will NEVER see the signing bonus again.......so the way things should work are: what do the team's get out of long-term deals? they pay out a large signing bonus that they are putting at risk BUT they do get a player signed for a longer term.......if they want to cut a player they are well within there rights as per the terms of the CBA that the players have agreed to, but they will NEVER see those up front dollars again.......that is the price of gambling on locking up a player long-term what do the player's get out of long-term deals? they get a large signing bonus (which goes up based on years of commitment) and they get to keep that signing bonus regardless of performance.......what they are giving up is years - why else would the owners fork over large signing bonuses if they can't get the years locked in? the way things work now? teams still dish out large signing bonuses to get players locked up long-term, players still take the large signing bonuses because short-term deals don't put cash in their pockets immediately, but the players are refusing to honor their word and the CBA and this is creating an unfair economic system that clearly favors them......where is their risk if they can just ignore contracts when it favors their situation??......maybe the owners should take back some previously paid signing bonus from the next player who signs long-term and doesn't live up to the hype - we'll see how the players like it when teams go against the CBA as it applies to jason peters - honor the contract, or stay home, simple as that.......he wanted his signing bonus, and he got it, and if he didn't want to locked in he shouldn't have signed anything.......no one forced him to do that........whether he exceeded his contract or not has nothing to do with it - he agreed to it.......if he didn't perform up to his contract when the bills took a big risk on him given his limited experience, they wouldn't have seen ANY of those signing bonus dollars back - that was the price they paid for their gamble! why can't they enjoy the reward from their gamble? all peters (and many other NFL'ers) wants is to have his cake (signing bonuses) and eat it to (ignoring the commitment that comes with that signing bonus)......if the bills want to approach him about a new deal, good enough, keep him happy, but they don't owe him anything and i hate that some NFL players seem to think that they can ignore the CBA while expecting the owners to honor it......i love the stand the bengals have made against the players on behalf of the NFL and the bills should do the same against any player who thinks he's entitled to a new contract after happily taking his signing bonus dollars and committing to years on his deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Cincy, I think you're a little confused here. I'm not supporting Chad Johnson in ay way. I really used to like the guy and think he is being an @ss for this. But the point was that he is not holding out for money. He just wants out of Cincy. No. You are. He wants more $$$. He is already in the top 5 in WR pay, he with his agent Rosenhaus and the B'gals have already re-negotiated his contract twice. He is notorious for disappearing at the end of a season. I don't expect anyone here to watch much CIN ball, but he will and has dogged it whenever it suited him. I said months ago, that he will sit before CIN knuckles under. They will refuse to eat his cap hit and his contract money. You want 'em...enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billadelphia Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 you are forgetting a very important element that is guaranteed to the player - signing bonus........regardless of whether the player meets, exceeds, or does not reach the expected level of performance the team will NEVER see the signing bonus again.......so the way things should work are: what do the team's get out of long-term deals? they pay out a large signing bonus that they are putting at risk BUT they do get a player signed for a longer term.......if they want to cut a player they are well within there rights as per the terms of the CBA that the players have agreed to, but they will NEVER see those up front dollars again.......that is the price of gambling on locking up a player long-term what do the player's get out of long-term deals? they get a large signing bonus (which goes up based on years of commitment) and they get to keep that signing bonus regardless of performance.......what they are giving up is years - why else would the owners fork over large signing bonuses if they can't get the years locked in? the way things work now? teams still dish out large signing bonuses to get players locked up long-term, players still take the large signing bonuses because short-term deals don't put cash in their pockets immediately, but the players are refusing to honor their word and the CBA and this is creating an unfair economic system that clearly favors them......where is their risk if they can just ignore contracts when it favors their situation??......maybe the owners should take back some previously paid signing bonus from the next player who signs long-term and doesn't live up to the hype - we'll see how the players like it when teams go against the CBA as it applies to jason peters - honor the contract, or stay home, simple as that.......he wanted his signing bonus, and he got it, and if he didn't want to locked in he shouldn't have signed anything.......no one forced him to do that........whether he exceeded his contract or not has nothing to do with it - he agreed to it.......if he didn't perform up to his contract when the bills took a big risk on him given his limited experience, they wouldn't have seen ANY of those signing bonus dollars back - that was the price they paid for their gamble! why can't they enjoy the reward from their gamble? all peters (and many other NFL'ers) wants is to have his cake (signing bonuses) and eat it to (ignoring the commitment that comes with that signing bonus)......if the bills want to approach him about a new deal, good enough, keep him happy, but they don't owe him anything and i hate that some NFL players seem to think that they can ignore the CBA while expecting the owners to honor it......i love the stand the bengals have made against the players on behalf of the NFL and the bills should do the same against any player who thinks he's entitled to a new contract after happily taking his signing bonus dollars and committing to years on his deal Yea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndZoneCrew Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 They got to make the best of what they can during that period. Well, I think that they should do something with their degree then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My Friends Call Me Tebucky Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 It's impossible to feel sorry for a guy when they sign a contract intentionally with a large signing bonus and yearly salaries escalate out of control over the course of the 'pact. They know they're likely to be released 3 or 4 years down the road, they just want to get big initial paydays out of the deal. Plus, how many times have we seen a player get their big signing bonus, play a couple years, then get released because their cap hit is too high only to go to another team, get another major signing bonus and repeat the cycle? The players contracts aren't guaranteed...boohoo. The ridiculous up front signing bonus money IS guaranteed. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. You have to know that Peters main intention with regards to renegotiating his contract isn't really to get up into the 7-8 million/ year category. He wants a signing bonus, roster bonus, etc, that will give him 15 or 20 million up front this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 unless you are actually violating the contract, you or a football player or anyone can demand anything. the bills can cut peters in the morning if he loses a leg in a car accident. peters has the right to hold out without forfitting his signing bonus. the bills have the right to cut him, ending the contract. that's the bottom line. in baseball and basket ball you have guaranteed contracts, so the whole contract is guaranteed up front. it's terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrite Gal Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 but they will NEVER see those up front dollars again.......that is the price of gambling on locking up a player long-term Actually, there are a number of cases where teams do recover the money paid up front for a player. For example, if a player fails to honor the contract by retiring of his own choosing, the courts have held as they did in the Barry Sanders case that he owed Detroit a pro-rated amount of his signing bonus for the years he did not play. In addition, it was recently held in the Michael Vick case that when he failed to honor his original contract due to his own criminal acts, he owed Atlanta millions of dollars in a pro-rated amount for the years he did not play under his original contract. If Peters were to refuse to play for the Bills and they refused to trade him, he would owe the Bills a pro-rated amount of his signing bonus for the years he did not play. As it stands right now, the voluntary OTAs being held by the Bills are simply that, voluntary. If however, he were to skip mandatory workouts he would then be subject to fines and would owe them to the Bills. If he were to hold out and never play again he would not walk away with his entire signing bonus, but the Bills should easily be able to win a suit to recover a portion of his signing bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Non guaranteed contracts. Every other major US league has guaranteed contracts. That's why. Contracts have changed. When you hear about a new huge contract, say Clements $80M deal, a certain % is now guaranteed. I think in Clements case it was $24M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Actually, there are a number of cases where teams do recover the money paid up front for a player. For example, if a player fails to honor the contract by retiring of his own choosing, the courts have held as they did in the Barry Sanders case that he owed Detroit a pro-rated amount of his signing bonus for the years he did not play. In addition, it was recently held in the Michael Vick case that when he failed to honor his original contract due to his own criminal acts, he owed Atlanta millions of dollars in a pro-rated amount for the years he did not play under his original contract. If Peters were to refuse to play for the Bills and they refused to trade him, he would owe the Bills a pro-rated amount of his signing bonus for the years he did not play. As it stands right now, the voluntary OTAs being held by the Bills are simply that, voluntary. If however, he were to skip mandatory workouts he would then be subject to fines and would owe them to the Bills. If he were to hold out and never play again he would not walk away with his entire signing bonus, but the Bills should easily be able to win a suit to recover a portion of his signing bonus. of course......i guess i should have been more clear, but i was speaking purely in cases of player's performance (or lack there of).......obviously if a player retires the team can make a claim, but it is pretty uncommon that teams actually ever end up seeing the cash out of it (i.e. terrell owens with the eagles and jake plummer with the bucs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 of course......i guess i should have been more clear, but i was speaking purely in cases of player's performance (or lack there of).......obviously if a player retires the team can make a claim, but it is pretty uncommon that teams actually ever end up seeing the cash out of it (i.e. terrell owens with the eagles and jake plummer with the bucs) The NFL wants to chamge the CBA so teams can get money back for certain conduct detrmental to the league (see Pacman Jones, Chris Henry) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan Trapped in Pats Land Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Contracts have changed. When you hear about a new huge contract, say Clements $80M deal, a certain % is now guaranteed. I think in Clements case it was $24M Not guaranteed. It's money that is tied up in Likely To Be Earned incentives, like workout bonuses, roster bonuses, etc. The only guaranteed money is the upfront bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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