Trader Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Lets just put everyone on a 2 year deal. Long term deals clearly mean nothing. If a player has a 3, 4 or 5 year contract and he exceeds expectations then he wants a new deal. Why bother with long term contracts at all? Seems like a waste of time to me. Have we reached an era in pro sports where, "commitment" a promise or a contract is totally meaningless. Imagine if we ran the rest of the world that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimBob2232 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Ugh. I HATE when I hear this argument. Some of you people JUST DONT GET IT. To have a contract, BOTH sides agree. Part of NFL contracts is a clause that states that the MANAGEMENT can TERMINATE the agreement at any time and NOT pay the player anymore. (See Shawn Alexander). This means that contracts are NOT guaranteed. Because of this, the union has added a clause into the contract which states that the PLAYER can REFUSE TO PLAY and DEMAND renegotiation at any time should he feel he is not being properly accommodated financially. Its a two-way street. Neither side HAS to live up to their contractual obligations because the contract itself gives them the right not to. I should also mention you do NOT see this in baseball. Why? Because contracts ARE guaranteed. We can have this conversation on which method is better all day long...but I would assume most of us on this board are happy we are not still paying Drew Bledsoe and Mike Williams... (note, read up on Mo Vaughn's contract with the Mets if you want to see how bad guaranteed contracts could be for a franchise..ESPECIALLY Buffalo) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 How many hold outs are there every year? Ten, maybe? Out of about 1700 players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Because of this, the union has added a clause into the contract which states that the PLAYER can REFUSE TO PLAY and DEMAND renegotiation at any time should he feel he is not being properly accommodated financially. ( You sure about that? I really do not think that is the case as once we slide from OTAs to mandatory minicamps and training camps, fines start to levied agaisnt players who do not show up that are under contract. Yes, the only leverage a player has is to not report, which he can do at any time, but he also not get paid then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Part of a contract is sort of assuming your current role through the contract. However, if you exceed/far-exceed the expectations set for the contract you have to renegotiate a bigger/better contract. Isn't this how simple business works....Why do companies give a raise both when you meet performance goals as well as when you get promoted. It is the exact same reason.... Peters has outperformed his past contract even though it has 3 years left in it....This is his chance to get his big pay day. I had this argument a couple of years ago....NFL teams are ready to terminate veteran contracts when they don't see the same value in the player as at that time of the contract. If teams are allowed to terminate contracts without taking a monetary penalty (all teams have enough cap space, hence cap hit has become a non-entity in todays NFL), players should be allowed to parlay their play into meaningful contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Part of a contract is sort of assuming your current role through the contract. However, if you exceed/far-exceed the expectations set for the contract you have to renegotiate a bigger/better contract. Isn't this how simple business works....Why do companies give a raise both when you meet performance goals as well as when you get promoted. It is the exact same reason.... Peters has outperformed his past contract even though it has 3 years left in it....This is his chance to get his big pay day. I had this argument a couple of years ago....NFL teams are ready to terminate veteran contracts when they don't see the same value in the player as at that time of the contract. If teams are allowed to terminate contracts without taking a monetary penalty, players should be allowed to parlay their play into meaningful contracts. I don't totally agree with this its like most of us with our regular day to day jobs, i know in my case i am an at will employee, which means they can terminate my contract and end my employment for no real reason. However I don't have the ability to not work and demand more money if I feel i am not being paid enough, so I think the players should be required to play out their contract regardless of feelings or some idiot agent whispering sweet nothings into that players ear, telling him "holdout and we will get you to a new team and a new bigger fatter contract that in a year or 2 we can start this all over again. Play it out and then ask for more money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrite Gal Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I don't totally agree with this its like most of us with our regular day to day jobs, i know in my case i am an at will employee, which means they can terminate my contract and end my employment for no real reason. However I don't have the ability to not work and demand more money if I feel i am not being paid enough, so I think the players should be required to play out their contract regardless of feelings or some idiot agent whispering sweet nothings into that players ear, telling him "holdout and we will get you to a new team and a new bigger fatter contract that in a year or 2 we can start this all over again. Play it out and then ask for more money You work within the best contract you can get in the somewhat free market we have. The NFL player operates within the best contract he can negotiate within this somewhat free market. You and the NFL player are operating under exactly the same principles. However, in this case because the NFL player has far more leverage than you have due to his skillset being incredibly limited in the marketplace and being in far more demand (its called supply and demand) he operates within a far more advantageous contract than you (or I) do. You and the NFL player actually do operate under the exact same rules. However, the contract which you two operate under is very different because your skillsets and leverage are so different. It is simply incorrect to conclude that because your contracts are different that you operate under different realities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrite Gal Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 You work within the best contract you can get in the somewhat free market we have. The NFL player operates within the best contract he can negotiate within this somewhat free market. You and the NFL player are operating under exactly the same principles. However, in this case because the NFL player has far more leverage than you have due to his skillset being incredibly limited in the marketplace and being in far more demand (its called supply and demand) he operates within a far more advantageous contract than you (or I) do. You and the NFL player actually do operate under the exact same rules. However, the contract which you two operate under is very different because your skillsets and leverage are so different. It is simply incorrect to conclude that because your contracts are different that you operate under different realities. or different moralities for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 You work within the best contract you can get in the somewhat free market we have. The NFL player operates within the best contract he can negotiate within this somewhat free market. You and the NFL player are operating under exactly the same principles. However, in this case because the NFL player has far more leverage than you have due to his skillset being incredibly limited in the marketplace and being in far more demand (its called supply and demand) he operates within a far more advantageous contract than you (or I) do. You and the NFL player actually do operate under the exact same rules. However, the contract which you two operate under is very different because your skillsets and leverage are so different. It is simply incorrect to conclude that because your contracts are different that you operate under different realities. Good points, I guess it was more my own beliefs, I know i was raised to take what is given to me and if you want more wait until that time comes and then ask for more.... I get the supply and demand portion of it, just basically the way i was raised i would not be demanding a new deal when i am still playing out an older one that i may have signed one or 2 years ago--- to me it's stupid.... just my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Good points, I guess it was more my own beliefs, I know i was raised to take what is given to me and if you want more wait until that time comes and then ask for more.... I get the supply and demand portion of it, just basically the way i was raised i would not be demanding a new deal when i am still playing out an older one that i may have signed one or 2 years ago--- to me it's stupid.... just my opinion You can argue about the morality all day, but asking for a new deal isn't stupid. Provided your goal, as a pro athlete, is to make the most money, and not to be popular. Holdouts rarely backfire for the player, and until they do, the players are going to keep holding out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billadelphia Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Good points, I guess it was more my own beliefs, I know i was raised to take what is given to me and if you want more wait until that time comes and then ask for more.... I get the supply and demand portion of it, just basically the way i was raised i would not be demanding a new deal when i am still playing out an older one that i may have signed one or 2 years ago--- to me it's stupid.... just my opinion Not to mention, it's a snowball effect. Even players who were raised with morals like you're talking about see all of their piers doing it and want to join in on the fun. If you look back to 20yrs ago, it was totally different. Most of the players who opted out were in some sort of special circumstance situation or were superstars. It's hard to say who exactly it started with or what era (if anyone wants to research this, be my guest), but once a couple people started, the agents saw the effects, they wanted in on the action. I'd put money on the belief that alot of times, it's the agents who think their clients 'deserve' more money and not the players themselves. Agents remind me of ambulance chasing lawyers who put on a fake facade about how they're trying to get what their clients deserve, but the underlying reason is just more money for them. A new contract means that the agent gets a nice big cut, so why not push for a new one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Not to mention, it's a snowball effect. Even players who were raised with morals like you're talking about see all of their piers doing it and want to join in on the fun. If you look back to 20yrs ago, it was totally different. Most of the players who opted out were in some sort of special circumstance situation or were superstars. It's hard to say who exactly it started with or what era (if anyone wants to research this, be my guest), but once a couple people started, the agents saw the effects, they wanted in on the action. I'd put money on the belief that alot of times, it's the agents who think their clients 'deserve' more money and not the players themselves. Agents remind me of ambulance chasing lawyers who put on a fake facade about how they're trying to get what their clients deserve, but the underlying reason is just more money for them. A new contract means that the agent gets a nice big cut, so why not push for a new one? totally agree, you make very good points i just think it's more the agent's fault than the players because they are going to get a bigger cut of that contract, then also they become known as the man and other players want him as an agent cause he can get them the big payday, so now they have more clients which again equals more money for the agent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 You can argue about the morality all day, but asking for a new deal isn't stupid. Provided your goal, as a pro athlete, is to make the most money, and not to be popular. Holdouts rarely backfire for the player, and until they do, the players are going to keep holding out. I do believe it is ridiculous to hold out when you already have a contract where you are already making a buttload of money, and in the bolded section, it's the same if you are not a pro athlete. And just like free agency, once one owner takes a stand against these holdouts, and decides not to give them a new contract hopefully it will snowball and people like Chad Johnson can sit and not play because the owner has had enough of being held up and constantly caving to the demands of these over priced athletes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan Trapped in Pats Land Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I don't totally agree with this its like most of us with our regular day to day jobs, i know in my case i am an at will employee, which means they can terminate my contract and end my employment for no real reason. However I don't have the ability to not work and demand more money if I feel i am not being paid enough, so I think the players should be required to play out their contract regardless of feelings or some idiot agent whispering sweet nothings into that players ear, telling him "holdout and we will get you to a new team and a new bigger fatter contract that in a year or 2 we can start this all over again. Play it out and then ask for more money Do you work in an environment with a Collective Bargaining Agreement? If not, the comparison is not really viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Do you work in an environment with a Collective Bargaining Agreement? If not, the comparison is not really viable. The comparison is being made mainly to state that they should be playing out a contract and then negotiating a new one, it was just an example of how things can be, and if the owners would stand up and not cave to this crap that the players and agents pull, this whole thing wouldn't be an issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan Trapped in Pats Land Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 The comparison is being made mainly to state that they should be playing out a contract and then negotiating a new one, it was just an example of how things can be, and if the owners would stand up and not cave to this crap that the players and agents pull, this whole thing wouldn't be an issue Most of us work under At Will employment. NFL Players do not. It is more like a union job (say a pipefitter or a welder), but has some significant differences. The hold out is pretty much the only vehicle for a player like Peters to look for a pay change. Oh, and the workouts are also voluntary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I do believe it is ridiculous to hold out when you already have a contract where you are already making a buttload of money, and in the bolded section, it's the same if you are not a pro athlete. And just like free agency, once one owner takes a stand against these holdouts, and decides not to give them a new contract hopefully it will snowball and people like Chad Johnson can sit and not play because the owner has had enough of being held up and constantly caving to the demands of these over priced athletes. 1) Chad Johnson is not holding out because of money issues. 2) Peters is the 3rd highest paid o-line on the team. LT, not to mention pro bowl ones, are normally in the top 5 on a team salary-wise. 3) NFL contracts are not guaranteed and a player can be cut at any time, even because of injury. Do you think any owner will help out a player who lost his career to injury after they release them? I think not. 4) Don't compare your job to a pro athlete's job. They are completely different worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 BTW, they don't sign one contract - they sign a series of one-year contracts. Also, the terms are often lengthened to spread out the signing bonus money for cap reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 1) Chad Johnson is not holding out because of money issues. 2) Peters is the 3rd highest paid o-line on the team. LT, not to mention pro bowl ones, are normally in the top 5 on a team salary-wise. 3) NFL contracts are not guaranteed and a player can be cut at any time, even because of injury. Do you think any owner will help out a player who lost his career to injury after they release them? I think not. 4) Don't compare your job to a pro athlete's job. They are completely different worlds. My whole point about this argument was i would like to see one owner take a stand when i guy holds out over his contract and says " fine, sit, i don't care, and see how many other players hold out for new contracts at that point in time? I think you would see a drop in it because in the end the player loses a year which hurts him because the lifetime of playing NFL football is not long, and the player doesn't make money.... It would teach the players to think twice before holding out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 My whole point about this argument was i would like to see one owner take a stand when i guy holds out over his contract and says " fine, sit, i don't care, and see how many other players hold out for new contracts at that point in time? I think you would see a drop in it because in the end the player loses a year which hurts him because the lifetime of playing NFL football is not long, and the player doesn't make money.... It would teach the players to think twice before holding out I get that to a point and would agree in other sports that holding out is pretty low. But not in football. It is a cut throat business and Peters has earned a new contract based on his current play and position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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