Bills "mortified"

[Mickey]

IIRC, Nicole Brown had 19 or so incidents of abuse and at least 8 times the cops were called and came to their house to investigate. I think we are a long way from making any comparison of the situations. I know you're not, but this discussion IMO doesn't even belong in the thread. I frankly don't know why you brought it up.

If I am not mistaken, OJ's first wife (Marguerite?) had him charged on at least one occasion.

[Kelly the Dog]

Kelly, I'm sorry. I don't get angry about much, and while this isn't directed specifically at you, but the propensity to excuse extreme violence toward women -- and yes, when a 6'6" football player chokes a woman, that's extreme to the point of potentially homicidal -- by a few here is sickening. Moreover, the propensity to slough this off as a one-timer that could even conceivably be her fault (!!) because she claimed it was is insulting. As is bringing up uninteresting ancillary points about the baby possibly not being hit because the Fort Wayne media didn't go to town with part of the story. As far as I'm concerned, that would merely be the icing on the cake of an already disturbing story of violence toward women. The fact is, a young woman was choked by a very large football player who also ripped a telephone out of the wall when she was calling 911. Those facts are not in dispute. He wasn't convicted, but you know how those things go -- a "diversionary program" is another name for admission of guilt. Do people make amends for their past? Sure. And I hope he does. But I'm not willing to excuse truly terrible behavior because the woman is still with him. He will always be an unappealing player to me for that reason. I hope he turns over a new leaf, and I'll root for him to succeed with the Bills because he's a team member. But I won't feel great doing it.

 

Also, re: the Bills being willing to give him a pass and the girlfriend and the dad letting episodes pass, a term comes to mind: meal ticket. Despite illusions to the contrary, the Bills are a standard-issue NFL team, all of which overlook criminal behavior when it comes to rare talents (see Stevens, Jerramy; Pittman, Michael). They need a big receiver who can score touchdowns, and it looks he can do this pretty well. Hence they'll overlook unsavory episodes by chalking them up to youth and hope for the best. Every team does it because they're so desperate to win, and many times they end up being burned. And I would not be shocked if the girlfriend -- who has his son to take care of -- and the dad had at the back of their minds the fact that within three months, Hardy will be a millionaire.

Believe me, I hate domestic violence toward women as much as you. I promise you that. I think there is way more of it than people realize, and I think it's far worse of a crime than a lot of other seemingly worse crimes. It's intolerable.

 

I also simultaneously believe that not all women that have been hit fit this stereotype of being the poor victim and stay in these horrible relationships for meal tickets or because they believe they have to. That is SO FUKKING INSULTING to women I don't know where to start. Sure it happens, and far, far too much. But there are millions of guys who have hit their loved one, or grabbed her by the neck once, or were HIT by their girlfriend or wife and retaliated. And there are, as I said, countless women who are stronger than the guys that hit them and walk away. More than stay I would bet. Because it happens all the time, everywhere.

 

You act like everyone who has ever been too drunk once or twice becomes a raging alcoholic. Too many do, sure, but most don't.

 

This particular girl was with Hardy since they were 13. Far before he could be considered a meal ticket. I don't know her any more than you but that holds a lot of weight for me. It doesn't automatically mean he isn't a jerk but it also doesn't automatically mean he is. If he IS the guy you're just assuming he is, then I despise him as much or more than you. But IMO we can't do that. That's just wrong. We need to know a lot more about what really happened. This is NOT a if it looks like and walks like a duck it's a duck situation. Not even close. Not yet.

[Alaska Darin]

Kelly, I'm sorry. I don't get angry about much, and while this isn't directed specifically at you, but the propensity to excuse extreme violence toward women -- and yes, when a 6'6" football player chokes a woman, that's extreme to the point of potentially homicidal -- by a few here is sickening. Moreover, the propensity to slough this off as a one-timer that could even conceivably be her fault (!!) because she claimed it was is insulting. As is bringing up uninteresting ancillary points about the baby possibly not being hit because the Fort Wayne media didn't go to town with part of the story. As far as I'm concerned, that would merely be the icing on the cake of an already disturbing story of violence toward women. The fact is, a young woman was choked by a very large football player who also ripped a telephone out of the wall when she was calling 911. Those facts are not in dispute. He wasn't convicted, but you know how those things go -- a "diversionary program" is another name for admission of guilt. Do people make amends for their past? Sure. And I hope he does. But I'm not willing to excuse truly terrible behavior because the woman is still with him. He will always be an unappealing player to me for that reason. I hope he turns over a new leaf, and I'll root for him to succeed with the Bills because he's a team member. But I won't feel great doing it.

 

Also, re: the Bills being willing to give him a pass and the girlfriend and the dad letting episodes pass, a term comes to mind: meal ticket. Despite illusions to the contrary, the Bills are a standard-issue NFL team, all of which overlook criminal behavior when it comes to rare talents (see Stevens, Jerramy; Pittman, Michael). They need a big receiver who can score touchdowns, and it looks he can do this pretty well. Hence they'll overlook unsavory episodes by chalking them up to youth and hope for the best. Every team does it because they're so desperate to win, and many times they end up being burned. And I would not be shocked if the girlfriend -- who has his son to take care of -- and the dad had at the back of their minds the fact that within three months, Hardy will be a millionaire.

And your "he went to a diversionary program and that's just another admission of guilt" speaks of how little experience you've ever had with a court system. It's actually people like you who make innocent guys accept stuff like that because in the "he said/she said" world, the guy ALWAYS is the loser. Add to that the fact that he's a big dude, an athlete, who doesn't come from money and you have a guaranteed conviction.

 

I have no idea whether he's guilty or innocent of what he was accused of in either incident but apparently you do. I hope no one in your family ever has the misfortune of being around manipulative people who know how to work the system because you're going to be in for a rude awakening.

 

Everytime this crap comes up, I think back to the Duke Lacrosse case. Hang 'em high, Dave. Hang 'em high.

[Bill from NYC]

And your "he went to a diversionary program and that's just another admission of guilt" speaks of how little experience you've ever had with a court system. It's actually people like you who make innocent guys accept stuff like that because in the "he said/she said" world, the guy ALWAYS is the loser. Add to that the fact that he's a big dude, an athlete, who doesn't come from money and you have a guaranteed conviction.

 

I have no idea whether he's guilty or innocent of what he was accused of in either incident but apparently you do. I hope no one in your family ever has the misfortune of being around manipulative people who know how to work the system because you're going to be in for a rude awakening.

 

Everytime this crap comes up, I think back to the Duke Lacrosse case. Hang 'em high, Dave. Hang 'em high.

 

AD, the following is not aimed at you in particular. The thing is.....

It is far more likely than unlikely that Hardy has been involved in other domestic incidents with his girlfriend. It is also far more likely than unlikely that there will be another.

 

Now, this doesn't mean that I am "throwing him under the bus," It does however make me hope that I am wrong (experience tells me I am not), and to not feel so great about the Bills using an early 2nd on the kid.

 

As for the latest domestic incident, he was said to have drawn a gun. I choose to believe the 73 year old lady more than his drug dealing dad. Could there have been a legit reason? I would say yes, based on the history of his father. Still, it is a horror show imo. If the father is that bad, Hardy must simply steer clear of him.

 

Your jokes about my suggestion that he gets help were funny AD, but if more incidents would fail to surprise you, it would probably be a very good idea. My gut instinct (that's right, without having conducted an investigation) tells me that therapy would be a really good idea. It wouldn't hurt, ya know?

[Billadelphia]

AD, the following is not aimed at you in particular. The thing is.....

It is far more likely than unlikely that Hardy has been involved in other domestic incidents with his girlfriend. It is also far more likely than unlikely that there will be another.

 

Now, this doesn't mean that I am "throwing him under the bus," It does however make me hope that I am wrong (experience tells me I am not), and to not feel so great about the Bills using an early 2nd on the kid.

 

As for the latest domestic incident, he was said to have drawn a gun. I choose to believe the 73 year old lady more than his drug dealing dad. Could there have been a legit reason? I would say yes, based on the history of his father. Still, it is a horror show imo. If the father is that bad, Hardy must simply steer clear of him.

 

Your jokes about my suggestion that he gets help were funny AD, but if more incidents would fail to surprise you, it would probably be a very good idea. My gut instinct (that's right, without having conducted an investigation) tells me that therapy would be a really good idea. It wouldn't hurt, ya know?

 

Why? The reality of the situation is that there was one incident reported. There is no track record. You're basing this assumption on other peoples track records (i.e. habitual offenders), not Hardy's. The reality is that its 50-50 that it happens again.

[Bill from NYC]

The reality is that its 50-50 that it happens again.

 

50/50 is not OK when you are handing someone millions to play football. It isn't even that OK for fans, because we spend a lot of money supporting this team.

If Hardy getting help would, or even might decrease his odds of screwing up, I am for it.

[Ramius]

As for the latest domestic incident, he was said to have drawn a gun. I choose to believe the 73 year old lady more than his drug dealing dad. Could there have been a legit reason? I would say yes, based on the history of his father. Still, it is a horror show imo. If the father is that bad, Hardy must simply steer clear of him.

 

Being a cop, you of all people should know how little credence you can lend to an witness report, especially an old woman in a stressful situation.

[Bill from NYC]

Being a cop, you of all people should know how little credence you can lend to an witness report, especially an old woman in a stressful situation.

 

Not true. What axe to grind do you think a 73 year old lady would have and remember, Hardy does have a legal permit. I am thinking that she didn't want her family members to get hit by a stray bullet, and called the police.

 

For all we know she might be (good chance) one of those old AA "Church Ladies." Have you ever met one (NOT being a wiseass!) They are some of the best people in America. They go to church all the time, and take no nonsense, especially from young family members.

 

I have seen career violent criminals who were not the least bit afraid of police, but were scared schittless of their grandmothers. Seriously.

[Billadelphia]

50/50 is not OK when you are handing someone millions to play football. It isn't even that OK for fans, because we spend a lot of money supporting this team.

If Hardy getting help would, or even might decrease his odds of screwing up, I am for it.

 

I'm in total agreement for some counseling. I think that every rookie who makes the roster should have some sort of counseling that they are required to go through (i.e. money management, family management, career management beyond football, etc). It should be something that is more than just a formality for new players, and should probably be a one on one thing with a counselor who they can go to in confidence. With all of the money that gets thrown around in the NFL, it couldn't cost more than chump change, paid by the owners, for this to happen.

 

In a case like Hardy's, it would probably be best for him to pursue this on his own, regardless of what the team offers (if anything).

[dave mcbride]

And your "he went to a diversionary program and that's just another admission of guilt" speaks of how little experience you've ever had with a court system. It's actually people like you who make innocent guys accept stuff like that because in the "he said/she said" world, the guy ALWAYS is the loser. Add to that the fact that he's a big dude, an athlete, who doesn't come from money and you have a guaranteed conviction.

 

I have no idea whether he's guilty or innocent of what he was accused of in either incident but apparently you do. I hope no one in your family ever has the misfortune of being around manipulative people who know how to work the system because you're going to be in for a rude awakening.

 

Everytime this crap comes up, I think back to the Duke Lacrosse case. Hang 'em high, Dave. Hang 'em high.

Like I said, the facts in the case that I listed above were not in dispute. He even admitted to choking her after her initial story about a "friend" doing it a few days before. And his initial claim that a 1-year old broke the phone would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. In the Duke case, the facts were in dispute. Comparing the two is sophistry.

[Ramius]

Not true. What axe to grind do you think a 73 year old lady would have and remember, Hardy does have a legal permit. I am thinking that she didn't want her family members to get hit by a stray bullet, and called the police.

 

For all we know she might be (good chance) one of those old AA "Church Ladies." Have you ever met one (NOT being a wiseass!) They are some of the best people in America. They go to church all the time, and take no nonsense, especially from young family members.

 

I have seen career violent criminals who were not the least bit afraid of police, but were scared schittless of their grandmothers. Seriously.

 

I didnt say the lady has any axe to grind. Its the simple fact that eyewitness reports generally tend to suck. People simply cant remeber everything, and often "remember" falsehoods, especially in a stressful situation. Its a basic premise in general psych 101. Show a 30 second clip of a scene to an entire class, and tell them to pay attention to everything. Teach the class. At the end of class, ask the students to write down what they saw, or to answer specific questions about what happened. You'd be amazed at the variety of responses you'll get.

[stuckincincy]

Why? The reality of the situation is that there was one incident reported. There is no track record. You're basing this assumption on other peoples track records (i.e. habitual offenders), not Hardy's. The reality is that its 50-50 that it happens again.

 

My brother was a policeman for 35 years. Hated domestic abuse calls, hated laws that politicians jumping on bandwagons made, to harvest re-election hay - that demand that somebody has to get hauled off.

 

That took away an officer's experience and reliance on same. My brother had to haul to jail, out of all reason, 80 year-olds that never made a peep in the neighborhood for 60 years - but some silly argument over nothing overheard by a self-righteous snot, made him have to cuff and publicly mortify a decent citizen.

 

OTOH, he saw trends. You are a policeman - you see a lot...and you detect trends, you put forth an educated guess as to when it will be the repeat call to the same situation, the same cast of characters.

 

So skepticism is not to be dismissed.

 

I'm not particularly concerned about Hardy. But we will see what happens after a contract gets inked. A pile of new money never dreamed of before, has turned many a decent soul into a POS.

[Kelly the Dog]

Not true. What axe to grind do you think a 73 year old lady would have and remember, Hardy does have a legal permit. I am thinking that she didn't want her family members to get hit by a stray bullet, and called the police.

 

For all we know she might be (good chance) one of those old AA "Church Ladies." Have you ever met one (NOT being a wiseass!) They are some of the best people in America. They go to church all the time, and take no nonsense, especially from young family members.

 

I have seen career violent criminals who were not the least bit afraid of police, but were scared schittless of their grandmothers. Seriously.

Here is what we do know:

 

1] She saw an incident in her backyard.

2] She dialed 911 but hung up before they answered.

3] When they called back, which is how this got reported, because she didn't report anything until they asked her, she said Hardy and his father were involved "in a fistfight" and that Hardy was armed.

4] Minutes later when the cops arrived, they examined his father who did not have a mark on him and said nothing happened. There was no gun or fight, just an argument because his son is mad at him. (Some fistfight, apparently, where no marks on either of them between a hardened ex-con and his crazed women beating walking time-bomb son, huh?)

5] The woman told the cops that when she told young Hardy to stop fighting, he stopped, "pulled out" a weapon and immediately left.

 

That's what we know.

[VOR]

Like I said, the facts in the case that I listed above were not in dispute. He even admitted to choking her after her initial story about a "friend" doing it a few days before. And his initial claim that a 1-year old broke the phone would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. In the Duke case, the facts were in dispute. Comparing the two is sophistry.

No one is "excusing" Hardy's incident with his girlfriend. It was unfortunate and as far as we know, a one-time thing during a 9-year relationship. If there are any more incidents that have been covered-up, then that changes things. People can change, just like most people are claiming when it comes to Hardy's father, whose past is far worse than Hardy's.

[Lurker]

This thread has broken the camel's back about how useless this place has become in the off-season....

[Bill from NYC]

That's what we know.

 

We also know that he is teetering on the brink of tossing it all away.

 

Tell me. do you think he would have been a 1st round pick sans the domestic incident? If so, his conduct has already cost him a sizeable sum of money. Now this, before he signs his contract.

 

Like I said, I hope that he gets help.

[Billadelphia]

New link about this:

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=6085

[Guest dog14787]

We also know that he is teetering on the brink of tossing it all away.

 

Tell me. do you think he would have been a 1st round pick sans the domestic incident? If so, his conduct has already cost him a sizeable sum of money. Now this, before he signs his contract.

 

Like I said, I hope that he gets help.

 

I wonder what all the people who complained about Malcom Kelly having character issues think now.

 

Well guys, we skipped right over Malcom Kelly and picked up everyones favorite fella, no character issues here.

 

That being said, this is blown way out of proportion and I'm fairly confident Hardy has learned a valuable lesson.

 

I like James Hardy, he's got grit, something our offense needs, I'm anxious to see him perform.

[Alaska Darin]

Like I said, the facts in the case that I listed above were not in dispute. He even admitted to choking her after her initial story about a "friend" doing it a few days before. And his initial claim that a 1-year old broke the phone would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. In the Duke case, the facts were in dispute. Comparing the two is sophistry.

I haven't seen a single thing where he "admitted" anything. Perhaps you have a link?

[Alaska Darin]

AD, the following is not aimed at you in particular. The thing is.....

It is far more likely than unlikely that Hardy has been involved in other domestic incidents with his girlfriend. It is also far more likely than unlikely that there will be another.

 

Now, this doesn't mean that I am "throwing him under the bus," It does however make me hope that I am wrong (experience tells me I am not), and to not Feel so great about the Bills using an early 2nd on the kid.

Sorry. Not going through life with that mentality. I like to reserve my "assuming the dude is a scumbag" for politicians.

As for the latest domestic incident, he was said to have drawn a gun. I choose to believe the 73 year old lady more than his drug dealing dad. Could there have been a legit reason? I would say yes, based on the history of his father. Still, it is a horror show imo. If the father is that bad, Hardy must simply steer clear of him.

How do you know the 73 year old lady isn't a convicted felon of some kind? Once again, you're rushing to judgement based on nothing more than speculation and a bad newpaper report. I'm not saying Hardy's not a bad guy or that he's a good one. I'm simply not jumping on the bandwagon with what I actually know.

 

Same thing with the domestic "incident". I've been around enough women in my time to know there are some manipulative wenches out there who'd claw their own neck, tear their own shirt, and then rip the phone outta the wall after calling 911 just to "get you back" for something. I'm not saying that happened, either.

Your jokes about my suggestion that he gets help were funny AD, but if more incidents would fail to surprise you, it would probably be a very good idea. My gut instinct (that's right, without having conducted an investigation) tells me that therapy would be a really good idea. It wouldn't hurt, ya know?

Therapy is pretty much a load of crap. Dude will man up or he won't.