Bills "mortified"

[Lurker]

Useless or not...do we have a bet?

Yes, we do. I stand by my position and look forward to seeing things play out. You know how to reach me.

 

However, I'm gonna take the TSW-detox treatment and stop posting/viewing for a while. I just don't see enough value to keep wading through the floaters to get to the occasional entertaining/insightful thread.

[JasoninMT]

C'mon....

 

Haven't we all gone over to our dad's house on Mother's Day (not that he's with James' mother mind you) and pulled a weapon on our father?

 

This is old news... [/sarcasm]

 

Because Hardy is an athlete, he lives under a spotlight.

 

It isn't like he shot someone outside his own nightclub with a custom made handgun and then claimed he didn't know anything about it and "his" custom made handgun was at home... until they found it in a trashcan outside another one of his businesses...

 

He's a young adult, he made a mistake, he's made other mistakes, and I'm sure every person here has done something stupid at least once - maybe not with a firearm, but something they regret later. I guess if I'm the Bills front office - you tell him the behavior is unacceptable and he needs to make certain to use his head in the future. I don't think the NFLPA will let you put language in the contract to negate the contract if he repeats the off-field incidents.

[Dwight Drane]

Yes, we do. I stand by my position and look forward to seeing things play out. You know how to reach me.

 

However, I'm gonna take the TSW-detox treatment and stop posting/viewing for a while. I just don't see enough value to keep wading through the floaters to get to the occasional entertaining/insightful thread.

 

 

Very Good.

 

 

There is no insightful commentary in sports anymore. The best thing I have seen in ages was on Bob Costs' show last week with a debate about much of what this thread incompasses, and the reason why you need to "detox".

 

I consider myself usually a fair poster that may look a bit further into things since I have little trust that the truth is up front when real money is involved. I let myself get drawn into the usual trash on this one, and was so deep that I had no choice to stick it out. Look, you came to me with an unsolicited wager on the situation, so before we all slap each other's a$$es and claim higher ground, you may want to ask yourself why you did that, and felt the need to institute a $200 spread from what I said in "playin the dozens" fashion, in terms that Mr Hardy's supporters might understand. The thread was so vile, and my comment was so outrageous, yet you still went rate shopping!

 

I just wanted to be sure we were good to go. If I lose, you'll see my money.

[Dwight Drane]

C'mon....

 

Haven't we all gone over to our dad's house on Mother's Day (not that he's with James' mother mind you) and pulled a weapon on our father?

 

This is old news... [/sarcasm]

 

Because Hardy is an athlete, he lives under a spotlight.

 

It isn't like he shot someone outside his own nightclub with a custom made handgun and then claimed he didn't know anything about it and "his" custom made handgun was at home... until they found it in a trashcan outside another one of his businesses...

 

He's a young adult, he made a mistake, he's made other mistakes, and I'm sure every person here has done something stupid at least once - maybe not with a firearm, but something they regret later. I guess if I'm the Bills front office - you tell him the behavior is unacceptable and he needs to make certain to use his head in the future. I don't think the NFLPA will let you put language in the contract to negate the contract if he repeats the off-field incidents.

 

That's about the best balanced view you can take. It's the 3 week timeframe that was the kick in the pants. I'm more worried that the guy can only learn fly and fade routes by the time the season starts.

[John from Riverside]

And your "he went to a diversionary program and that's just another admission of guilt" speaks of how little experience you've ever had with a court system. It's actually people like you who make innocent guys accept stuff like that because in the "he said/she said" world, the guy ALWAYS is the loser. Add to that the fact that he's a big dude, an athlete, who doesn't come from money and you have a guaranteed conviction.

 

I have no idea whether he's guilty or innocent of what he was accused of in either incident but apparently you do. I hope no one in your family ever has the misfortune of being around manipulative people who know how to work the system because you're going to be in for a rude awakening.

 

Everytime this crap comes up, I think back to the Duke Lacrosse case. Hang 'em high, Dave. Hang 'em high.

 

My problem with all of this is we just dont know what actually happened. James Hardy wasn't a Buffalo bill when this happened (or did not happen)

 

I in no way condone this type of violence but since he did not get convicted of anything then the possibility is they just had a fight which we have all had at one time or another (without the physical part) so I am concerned about what James Hardy does from here on out as a player on the team I root for.

 

I would also like to point out that it is not like former bills that we idolize were a bunch of saints who would have been in church had they not had to play on that day.

 

- Thurman Thomas went through his own childish phase....heard all kinds of stories about him.

 

- I was also told stories of Jim Kelly and his treatment of women by a friend who saw it first hand when I was stationed down in Cape Cod

 

- Bruce Smith smoked the wacky tobacky

 

Did I witness any of these things myself....no....did I love these players....yes......James Hardy is now one of MY players. I am going to support him until he gives me a reason not to.

[Steely Dan]

IIRC, Nicole Brown had 19 or so incidents of abuse and at least 8 times the cops were called and came to their house to investigate. I think we are a long way from making any comparison of the situations. I know you're not, but this discussion IMO doesn't even belong in the thread. I frankly don't know why you brought it up.

 

I brought it up because people were saying it was the only incident like that with his girlfriend and IMO it's the only incident that we know about and it's possible there were more. That's all I'm saying. Just because a woman reports one it doesn't mean she reports all of them. There were at least 11 Nicole never reported. I don't know if he has anymore or not and I think he may have reformed due to his speaking openly about it. I only wanted to correct the perception that if abuse isn't reported it's not happening.

 

 

But he has been arrested and suspended for 2 different things in a matter of 2 months which is multiple.

 

There are 100 different sources that show Hardy getting a 14 on the Wonderlic. Since none of the sources are the NFL or the Wonderlic people themselves, I will not post a link to further accuse MR Hardy of actions that he obviously did not commit since we do not have the proper information.

 

I once again embellished a bit. The IQ is considered roughly 2x Wonderlic score + 60.....which puts Hardy at an 88 IQ. The average WR gets a 17 or has an IQ of 94.

 

Of course, we know how biased these tests are, and they are of little use to us in truly evaluating intelligence.

 

I don't see a 50 question test with a time limit as a good way to judge someone's IQ. While a 14 isn't that great it's not as bad as some people have gotten and I don't think the way you figured his IQ is really very valid. I liked Marv Levy's philosophy of drafting. Good character on and off the team, smart and self motivated. The new regime doesn't have that philosophy.

 

 

Kelly, I'm sorry. I don't get angry about much, and while this isn't directed specifically at you, but the propensity to excuse extreme violence toward women -- and yes, when a 6'6" football player chokes a woman, that's extreme to the point of potentially homicidal -- by a few here is sickening. Moreover, the propensity to slough this off as a one-timer that could even conceivably be her fault (!!) because she claimed it was is insulting. As is bringing up uninteresting ancillary points about the baby possibly not being hit because the Fort Wayne media didn't go to town with part of the story. As far as I'm concerned, that would merely be the icing on the cake of an already disturbing story of violence toward women. The fact is, a young woman was choked by a very large football player who also ripped a telephone out of the wall when she was calling 911. Those facts are not in dispute. He wasn't convicted, but you know how those things go -- a "diversionary program" is another name for admission of guilt. Do people make amends for their past? Sure. And I hope he does. But I'm not willing to excuse truly terrible behavior because the woman is still with him. He will always be an unappealing player to me for that reason. I hope he turns over a new leaf, and I'll root for him to succeed with the Bills because he's a team member. But I won't feel great doing it.

 

Also, re: the Bills being willing to give him a pass and the girlfriend and the dad letting episodes pass, a term comes to mind: meal ticket. Despite illusions to the contrary, the Bills are a standard-issue NFL team, all of which overlook criminal behavior when it comes to rare talents (see Stevens, Jerramy; Pittman, Michael). They need a big receiver who can score touchdowns, and it looks he can do this pretty well. Hence they'll overlook unsavory episodes by chalking them up to youth and hope for the best. Every team does it because they're so desperate to win, and many times they end up being burned. And I would not be shocked if the girlfriend -- who has his son to take care of -- and the dad had at the back of their minds the fact that within three months, Hardy will be a millionaire.

 

Amen brutha, any man who EVER lays a hand on a woman in anger isn't a man at all. I've never laid a hand on a woman in anger. I've walked away until I've cooled down.

 

Believe me, I hate domestic violence toward women as much as you. I promise you that. I think there is way more of it than people realize, and I think it's far worse of a crime than a lot of other seemingly worse crimes. It's intolerable.

 

I also simultaneously believe that not all women that have been hit fit this stereotype of being the poor victim and stay in these horrible relationships for meal tickets or because they believe they have to. That is SO FUKKING INSULTING to women I don't know where to start. Sure it happens, and far, far too much. But there are millions of guys who have hit their loved one, or grabbed her by the neck once, or were HIT by their girlfriend or wife and retaliated. And there are, as I said, countless women who are stronger than the guys that hit them and walk away. More than stay I would bet. Because it happens all the time, everywhere.

 

You act like everyone who has ever been too drunk once or twice becomes a raging alcoholic. Too many do, sure, but most don't.

 

This particular girl was with Hardy since they were 13. Far before he could be considered a meal ticket. I don't know her any more than you but that holds a lot of weight for me. It doesn't automatically mean he isn't a jerk but it also doesn't automatically mean he is. If he IS the guy you're just assuming he is, then I despise him as much or more than you. But IMO we can't do that. That's just wrong. We need to know a lot more about what really happened. This is NOT a if it looks like and walks like a duck it's a duck situation. Not even close. Not yet.

 

I repeat, any man who EVER lays a hand on a woman in anger isn't a man at all.

 

 

Being a cop, you of all people should know how little credence you can lend to an witness report, especially an old woman in a stressful situation.

 

That's true, witness accounts are the least reliable testimony but taken as the best. However, in this case his father didn't say a gun wasn't pulled at first. I'm sure he knew about the accusation and I think he would have said something about it but it's not a given either.

 

Hardy's father told police he and his son were in an argument, and that the younger Hardy was always angry with him because he was in prison while his son was a boy, but that he was not injured and did not want to press charges against his son. He told the Journal Gazette:

"Me and my son's relationship is fine and anything (different) ... is not factual. Me and James' relationship is fine," he said.

 

Hardy says he never pulled a gun but I think the facts are vague when you take his fathers words into account. If he didn't pull a gun on him they definitely had a fight, not physical, maybe, but a fight of some kind and his father says he still has anger issues with him.

[Steely Dan]

I'm in total agreement for some counseling. I think that every rookie who makes the roster should have some sort of counseling that they are required to go through (i.e. money management, family management, career management beyond football, etc). It should be something that is more than just a formality for new players, and should probably be a one on one thing with a counselor who they can go to in confidence. With all of the money that gets thrown around in the NFL, it couldn't cost more than chump change, paid by the owners, for this to happen.

 

In a case like Hardy's, it would probably be best for him to pursue this on his own, regardless of what the team offers (if anything).

 

The NFLPA has a program that covers that stuff exclusively. I don't know if it's mandatory or voluntary but I know they do offer it.

 

 

Like I said, the facts in the case that I listed above were not in dispute. He even admitted to choking her after her initial story about a "friend" doing it a few days before. And his initial claim that a 1-year old broke the phone would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. In the Duke case, the facts were in dispute. Comparing the two is sophistry.

 

Also, in the Duke case the prosecutor hid evidence that would have cast a huge doubt on the kids guilt. With the Hardy incident the facts aren't really in dispute. It was repugnant but I'm willing to cut the kid a break. It's strike one on him now and I'm going to say strike 1 1/2 due to the last incident since some of the facts are in dispute. It sounds like he just needs guidance. It sounds to me like he really wants guidance but has never had anyone to give it to him except for coaches. I think the Bills have enough character in the lockerroom that if the kid does want guidance he'll find a lot of good guidance there.

 

 

I didnt say the lady has any axe to grind. Its the simple fact that eyewitness reports generally tend to suck. People simply cant remeber everything, and often "remember" falsehoods, especially in a stressful situation. Its a basic premise in general psych 101. Show a 30 second clip of a scene to an entire class, and tell them to pay attention to everything. Teach the class. At the end of class, ask the students to write down what they saw, or to answer specific questions about what happened. You'd be amazed at the variety of responses you'll get.

 

Also, I've heard of police training classes where an actor will barge in and shoot the teacher and then right after the incident when the teacher gets up they are asked to write down everything they remember about the attack. How many shots, what the person was wearing, man or woman, hair color, height, weight etc.

 

 

"No gun was involved," said Hardy. "I don't know where she got that from. That's something that me and my father discussed. The only problem is I feel even if I'm at home and I feel I have to protect myself he actually convinced me to go get one, but there wasn't one at the time there."

------------------------------------------------------------------

So, we still only have one 73-year-old witness who made a statement so believable the cops chose to do nothing, and a kid who has been up front since the "incident" took place.

 

Seems to me it is now highly debatable a gun was present in the first place, but I'm glad Hardy has made the decision to stay out of Fort Wayne.

 

It's odd that he has a permit to carry one but he didn't have it with him then. I'm not convinced either way totally but I'm leaning toward the gun being there and pointed.

 

 

Wow, quite an admittance and confession, Dave. I wonder how many years you get in the Indiana penal system for "aggravated red-marking". Hate to be a teacher in that state.

 

He touched the woman in anger. 'Nuff said.

 

 

I think there was a fight of some kind, of course. I think he lost his temper and there was a vicious argument, and probably some physical scuffle they both regret. I am not sure whether he or she started it. From what I do know, I think both were probably at fault and both later admitted as such.

 

You said "he admitted it" and provided a link where he admitted pushing her and leaving a red mark. That really isn't much of an admittance.

 

What makes me laugh is that you are making some big deal out of the fact a 19 year old black kid from the hood with a father in jail actually LIED to the police when they came to the house after the fight where his girlfriend was accusing him of who knows what.

 

Do you live on this planet they call earth?

 

Why the hell does his being black have anything to do with this? She had a red mark on her neck what more do you need to know?

[Steely Dan]

My problem with all of this is we just dont know what actually happened. James Hardy wasn't a Buffalo bill when this happened (or did not happen)

 

I in no way condone this type of violence but since he did not get convicted of anything then the possibility is they just had a fight which we have all had at one time or another (without the physical part) so I am concerned about what James Hardy does from here on out as a player on the team I root for.

 

I would also like to point out that it is not like former bills that we idolize were a bunch of saints who would have been in church had they not had to play on that day.

 

- Thurman Thomas went through his own childish phase....heard all kinds of stories about him.

 

- I was also told stories of Jim Kelly and his treatment of women by a friend who saw it first hand when I was stationed down in Cape Cod

 

- Bruce Smith smoked the wacky tobacky

 

Did I witness any of these things myself....no....did I love these players....yes......James Hardy is now one of MY players. I am going to support him until he gives me a reason not to.

 

I'm sorry but I've never heard any reliable evidence about the Kelly and women thing. No offense but on my end it's a friend of a friend story. I've never heard about any arrests or even police calls about it.

[Kelly the Dog]

Why the hell does his being black have anything to do with this? She had a red mark on her neck what more do you need to know?

What caused the red mark would help.

 

Who started and who finished the fight would be beneficial.

 

Whether it was a faint red mark or a deep bruise would throw a little light on the subject.

 

Did the red mark come from a choking motion with both hands around your throat or was it more like an assistant junior high principal who liked to pinch your neck or pull your ear could help.

 

Were there any threats made might illuminate the whole story.

 

Was this the first, second, eighth or 25th time you or your boyfriend fought could be a factor.

 

Shall I continue?

 

And, in case you have been living under a rock your whole life, 19 year old black kids in the hood don't really give policemen a big thumbs up on the trust factor.

[BillsVet]

I cannot believe this thread has lasted so long.

 

I don't think any of us know what happened on Mother's Day between Hardy and his dad. There's no use speculating, as we'll never understand.

 

Hopefully Hardy understands he's got a big job ahead of him and can concentrate on playing football.

[eball]

I cannot believe this thread has lasted so long.

 

I don't think any of us know what happened on Mother's Day between Hardy and his dad. There's no use speculating, as we'll never understand.

 

Hopefully Hardy understands he's got a big job ahead of him and can concentrate on playing football.

You're kidding, right? Don't you know, there are a handful of posters on this board who know EVERYTHING there is to know about James Hardy, the "incident" with his father, his motivations, feelings, thoughts, words, and deeds? All from reading a write-up of a police blotter?

 

We should all be thankful to be among such wisdom and omniscience.

[Dwight Drane]

You're kidding, right? Don't you know, there are a handful of posters on this board who know EVERYTHING there is to know about James Hardy, the "incident" with his father, his motivations, feelings, thoughts, words, and deeds? All from reading a write-up of a police blotter?

 

We should all be thankful to be among such wisdom and omniscience.

 

I didn't get it from the police blotter. I got it from the "sleepy eyes" as one unidentified AFC scout said in another thread.

 

This isn't a hard call to make. If he was on the Dolphins this would also be a 10 page thread. It would be covered in a lot more gooey white stuff though.

[Steely Dan]

What caused the red mark would help.

 

Who started and who finished the fight would be beneficial.

 

Whether it was a faint red mark or a deep bruise would throw a little light on the subject.

 

Did the red mark come from a choking motion with both hands around your throat or was it more like an assistant junior high principal who liked to pinch your neck or pull your ear could help.

 

Were there any threats made might illuminate the whole story.

 

Was this the first, second, eighth or 25th time you or your boyfriend fought could be a factor.

 

Shall I continue?

 

And, in case you have been living under a rock your whole life, 19 year old black kids in the hood don't really give policemen a big thumbs up on the trust factor.

 

I think it's not a stretch to believe it was a pretty bad mark in light of all the facts that are known about this case.

[Dwight Drane]

Alright....I'll put up $100 and you put up $300....just like I said in the post. I want my money if Hardy is arrested or brought into custody by the police for any reason, or at the scene of a shooting by the end of January 2009. The reason I am hesitant to bet is that any chickensh!t that doesn't admit Hardy is at more of a risk to get in trouble than someone in the general population is probably the type of weasel that will not pay up on a bet.

 

Now how do you want to pay?

 

Considering how Hardy is just misunderstood, and he is no real risk.....and just 2 % of the population is arrested in any given year, then technically you can say I should be given up to 80-1 odds considering the timeframe. That is how confident I am that we are dealing with a problem. I am letting you off on 3-1 odds.

 

Now, hopefully you will be at the home opening tailgate, because I have a funny feeling I will be able to collect by then.

 

I hate to "root" for somebody's demise, but since I have zero control over this champion of society's actions, I shouldn't worry too much.

 

I need a ruling ahead of time....

 

The Bills' rookies were visiting the Hall of Fame on Saturday, the day after the Hit+Run, so I don't expect Hardy to be involved. HOWEVER......there were 4 other Bills involved and there is a good chance they will be handed a subpoena. Does not talking to the police and being forced to testify because Hardy was at the scene of the crime constitute a winning wager? If Hardy is charged, it's cut and dry....but I would like an objective opinion.

[obie_wan]

I need a ruling ahead of time....

 

The Bills' rookies were visiting the Hall of Fame on Saturday, the day after the Hit+Run, so I don't expect Hardy to be involved. HOWEVER......there were 4 other Bills involved and there is a good chance they will be handed a subpoena. Does not talking to the police and being forced to testify because Hardy was at the scene of the crime constitute a winning wager? If Hardy is charged, it's cut and dry....but I would like an objective opinion.

 

no - any allegedly involvement by any Bill is just a misunderstanding.

 

those cops were Giants or Pats fans with a grudge

[VOR]

I need a ruling ahead of time....

 

The Bills' rookies were visiting the Hall of Fame on Saturday, the day after the Hit+Run, so I don't expect Hardy to be involved. HOWEVER......there were 4 other Bills involved and there is a good chance they will be handed a subpoena. Does not talking to the police and being forced to testify because Hardy was at the scene of the crime constitute a winning wager? If Hardy is charged, it's cut and dry....but I would like an objective opinion.

What? Is this a hypothetical, like "if Hardy were at the scene of the crime...?" And if that's what you're asking, the answer would be no.

[Dwight Drane]

What? Is this a hypothetical, like "if Hardy were at the scene of the crime...?" And if that's what you're asking, the answer would be no.

 

I think you missed the call for....OBJECTIVE!

[Lurker]

I think you missed the call for....OBJECTIVE!

Still bored, huh? I bet you stuck pins into puppies when you were a kid, too....

[VOR]

I think you missed the call for....OBJECTIVE!

So if Hardy was in a car that was involved in a crime and he doesn't talk, it means he's a "ghetto punk" and you should win your bet? Do you think you should win your bet if he gets a speeding ticket? How about a parking ticket?

[Fan in San Diego]

I cannot believe this thread has lasted so long.

 

I don't think any of us know what happened on Mother's Day between Hardy and his dad. There's no use speculating, as we'll never understand.

 

Hopefully Hardy understands he's got a big job ahead of him and can concentrate on playing football.

 

I wonder what will happen on Father's Day ?