Offensive Line

[eball]

that would be Reggie Corner in the 4th and youboty in the 3rd 2 years ago.

Wrong and wrong.

 

Youboty was drafted to eventually start -- and at this point his grade is incomplete, leaning towards a D minus. Sometimes you swing and miss. Would you seriously argue that right now, the Bills' staff is comfortable with Youboty at ANY position on the field? This is his last chance.

 

Corner was drafted to compete for the nickel back position.

[eball]

You'll have to explain just who out of McGee, Greer, McKelvin and the oft-overlooked Will James you expect Corner to surpass in the next few seasons.

 

If Buffalo had taken a lineman in the 4th round, he might've been penciled in as the number one lineman off the bench by day one of training camp.

 

Even if Corner is a pretty good player, I'm finding it hard to understand what he'd do for this team. Normally it doesn't make much sense to get picky with positions once you get past that 3rd round, but these are extenuating circumstances: I can't think of a position where we were more stacked heading into that pick.

 

A 3rd round pick with a first round grade who we'd selected just two years ago was already our #5 cornerback before the pick was made. I'm assuming they've lost interest in Youboty, but still...was it really so necessary to address that 5th CB spot?

I realize Dibs responded already to this post, but I just have to say, 'wow.'

 

"Stacked" at the position? Greer is a journeyman. There's a reason he has never broken into the starting lineup -- and he only did so last year out of sheer necessity. I keep reading posts from fans saying he "held his own" or "played very well" but I don't study film and I'll leave those decisions to the actual coaches. I saw Greer make a couple of nice plays in the Dallas game -- other than that, I couldn't tell you a thing about his season. Youboty is a bust at this point, and clearly the coaches aren't comfortable he'll finally turn the corner (pardon the pun) this year. James was signed at a very reasonable cost, and it's not as if he's a world beater. Stacked indeed.

 

Corner will immediately compete for the nickel, and to tell you the truth, if he develops as I believe the coaching staff thinks he will, don't be surprised if he eventually supplants McGee. This is a guy who was under the radar entering the draft, and may wind up being one of those rare diamonds in the rough.

 

In any event, I've grown tired of this draft debate. I'm satisfied with how the Bills, over the past three offseasons, have addressed all areas of their football team and gotten them to a point at which I believe they have a talented roster and should honestly and legitimately compete for the postseason. I simply can't make myself find fault when I compare what we have now with what we had two short seasons ago.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

I realize Dibs responded already to this post, but I just have to say, 'wow.'

 

"Stacked" at the position? Greer is a journeyman. There's a reason he has never broken into the starting lineup -- and he only did so last year out of sheer necessity. I keep reading posts from fans saying he "held his own" or "played very well" but I don't study film and I'll leave those decisions to the actual coaches. I saw Greer make a couple of nice plays in the Dallas game -- other than that, I couldn't tell you a thing about his season. Youboty is a bust at this point, and clearly the coaches aren't comfortable he'll finally turn the corner (pardon the pun) this year. James was signed at a very reasonable cost, and it's not as if he's a world beater. Stacked indeed.

 

Corner will immediately compete for the nickel, and to tell you the truth, if he develops as I believe the coaching staff thinks he will, don't be surprised if he eventually supplants McGee. This is a guy who was under the radar entering the draft, and may wind up being one of those rare diamonds in the rough.

 

In any event, I've grown tired of this draft debate. I'm satisfied with how the Bills, over the past three offseasons, have addressed all areas of their football team and gotten them to a point at which I believe they have a talented roster and should honestly and legitimately compete for the postseason. I simply can't make myself find fault when I compare what we have now with what we had two short seasons ago.

This argument just isn't going to get us anywhere. I feel that Greer and James could start for close to half the teams in this league. You feel differently.

[eball]

This argument just isn't going to get us anywhere. I feel that Greer and James could start for close to half the teams in this league. You feel differently.

Fair enough.

[DrDawkinstein]

This argument just isn't going to get us anywhere. I feel that Greer and James could start for close to half the teams in this league. You feel differently.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

 

wait just a second. is this a rational agreement to disagree based on opinions?!?!?

 

dont you guys know youre supposed to resort to calling each other names until one of you leaves?!?! where's your internet handbook??

 

(ps nice job fer reals)

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

I think you are not looking at history in perspective. Since 2006(after TD) we have replaced 17 of the 22 starting players. We didn't have the luxury of being able to replace them all in 2006.....that year we were replacing SS, FS, DT, RG & attempted CB, TE & DT......finding LF replacement that year(the year before he left) was well down the list of priorities. We spent 1st & 2nd round picks to replace WM & LF in 2007.....we needed those players to pan out since again, we didn't have the luxury for them to fail.

Entering this draft(2008) we only realistically had 7 positions(FS, CB, C, RG, #2WR, TE, FB) which we were not locked into at starter(due to either ability, contract or potential). We used 1st on CB & 2nd on #2WR leaving IMO C & TE being the only obvious weakness.

But neither case has worked out badly. We went into the draft without a starting middle linebacker, and we ended up okay. We into the draft without a starting running back, and we ended up okay. This year, we went into the draft without a starting WR, and we ended up okay. But to target a nickel back as early as the 4th round a full two seasons before it will become necessary, when our current nickel back is a young player who can be re-signed, is a different story.

 

The fact is that James was 4th and Youboty was 5th on the depth chart heading into that pick, and by comparison, we have NO decent backup offensive linemen. Under normal circumstances I'd have no issue with a BPA pick anytime after the 3rd round, but again, these seem to be extenuating circumstances...when one position is in dire straights, and another already has a few options.

 

We didn't have to draft a nickel back.....but what are the options in the 4th round? It's a 4th round pick.....not likely to become a starter let alone a good one. I assume that we went for the best talent on our board so as to maximize the chances that we end up with a player who can play.

Again I ask....."Who would we pick instead.....and what could we realistically expect from them?"

All this fuss over a 4th round pick most likely destined either way to be a backup at best.

A BACKUP offensive lineman. Not a starter. I'm confident the scouting department could have found us a reliable backup offensive lineman, if they weren't busy satisfying the cornerback obsession.

 

It all comes back to either trust.....or distrust. Just because things seem a to be a certain way does not actually mean that they are. In the 2006 draft we(as fans who knew everything about this team) were desperate to draft an OT. We not only didn't draft one in the 1st round but had to wait till the 7th(IIRC) for us to get one. "What was the FO doing???" Well....strangely they had better knowledge of their players than we did & 2 seasons later we have a pro-bowl LT.

Duke Preston and Jason Whittle have almost zero upside. They are what they are, and it isn't much. This is plain to see. They could possibly be high on a UDFA or a practice squadder...but can you really rely on those kind of players? Should we put all our eggs in the basket of someone who couldn't beat out Duke Preston last year? Even if you're high on someone like that, you should still bring in talent to stabilize the position.

 

That means the only guy that can fit this case...that is, the front office seeing much more in them than we can...is Kirk Chambers. So maybe they think they already have a competent backup tackle.

 

Great. There's still three other starters at risk of injury on every play. Where is their backup plan?

 

My point is that until this FO show that they have actually made a mistake it is simply unfair to assume that they have. Honestly, is it likely that a 4th round OLman instead of a CB is that much more obvious and important that one can say that picking the CB(who one has no real idea of how his, nor his OL counterparts were rated) was the 'only logical choice'?

I have quite a bit of trust in the current regime...they've found a way to turn this ship around from the disaster they inherited. This overloading of the cornerback position is one of the few issues I've had with them. I don't know that every issue comes down merely to "trust or distrust." I believe people who are good at their jobs can still make mistakes, and can still have flaws. This could just be one of their few mistakes...doesn't mean we shouldn't trust them in the future. The fact that they're capable of making mistakes only means we should try to avoid blind faith, even if we do still trust their vision for the team, and most of their decisions.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

wait just a second. is this a rational agreement to disagree based on opinions?!?!?

 

dont you guys know youre supposed to resort to calling each other names until one of you leaves?!?! where's your internet handbook??

 

(ps nice job fer reals)

Sorry!

 

I promise I'll read the handbook before my next post, Doc.

[stuckincincy]

This argument just isn't going to get us anywhere. I feel that Greer and James could start for close to half the teams in this league. You feel differently.

 

Considering that near a third of the league ended up 8 - 8 or 7 - 9, that's a safe statement.

[Dibs]

......I have quite a bit of trust in the current regime...they've found a way to turn this ship around from the disaster they inherited. This overloading of the cornerback position is one of the few issues I've had with them. I don't know that every issue comes down merely to "trust or distrust." I believe people who are good at their jobs can still make mistakes, and can still have flaws. This could just be one of their few mistakes...doesn't mean we shouldn't trust them in the future. The fact that they're capable of making mistakes only means we should try to avoid blind faith, even if we do still trust their vision for the team, and most of their decisions.

You may well be correct in your assessment of CB depth etc and it could well be a mistake made by the FO(though honestly, 1 player from a 4th round pick is never going to be a big mistake). The way I see it though is that if it seems sooooo obvious to fans.....why would our experts do the opposite? To assume an irrational bias towards CBs is unfair since for 3 offseasons our FO has pumped all the money into contracts for the lines(not at any other position).

 

There has to be other factors.....perhaps the biggest being that they (probably) had Corner rated well above any OLman in terms of potential.....especially when you consider that no OLman was selected within half a round after we selected Corner.

Perhaps us fans are over-rating the incumbent CBs......and under-rating the incumbent OLmen.

 

All I'm saying is that before we as fans go crying over "such a stupid pick" we should actually give things time to prove the situation. I relate this sort of thing back to Youboty & Whitner. Whitner was a "bad" pick in part because he was a 'reach'.

Youboty was a "good" pick because he was a 'steal'. As it turned out Whitner has been minimally a good solid performer(dispelling the 'reach' title) while Youboty has yet to do anything(dispelling the 'steal' title).

 

(Also that a 4th rounder has soooo little chance of making a difference this year that the whole discussion is relatively moot.)

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

You may well be correct in your assessment of CB depth etc and it could well be a mistake made by the FO(though honestly, 1 player from a 4th round pick is never going to be a big mistake). The way I see it though is that if it seems sooooo obvious to fans.....why would our experts do the opposite? To assume an irrational bias towards CBs is unfair since for 3 offseasons our FO has pumped all the money into contracts for the lines(not at any other position).

 

There has to be other factors.....perhaps the biggest being that they (probably) had Corner rated well above any OLman in terms of potential.....especially when you consider that no OLman was selected within half a round after we selected Corner.

Perhaps us fans are over-rating the incumbent CBs......and under-rating the incumbent OLmen.

 

All I'm saying is that before we as fans go crying over "such a stupid pick" we should actually give things time to prove the situation. I relate this sort of thing back to Youboty & Whitner. Whitner was a "bad" pick in part because he was a 'reach'.

Youboty was a "good" pick because he was a 'steal'. As it turned out Whitner has been minimally a good solid performer(dispelling the 'reach' title) while Youboty has yet to do anything(dispelling the 'steal' title).

 

(Also that a 4th rounder has soooo little chance of making a difference this year that the whole discussion is relatively moot.)

Can't find much to disagree with here. Nice post. I understand your viewpoint, and I'm fairly certain you understand mine. Thanks for the back-and-forth.

[Dibs]

Can't find much to disagree with here. Nice post. I understand your viewpoint, and I'm fairly certain you understand mine. Thanks for the back-and-forth.

No worries....enjoyable for me too. I like your posts because you put forward your views and opinions on how you see things could be without dogmatically insisting that that is how things are. It'd be nice if more posters followed your example.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

No worries....enjoyable for me too. I like your posts because you put forward your views and opinions on how you see things could be without dogmatically insisting that that is how things are. It'd be nice if more posters followed your example.

Thanks for your kind words. You're one of my favorite posters here, and thats been the case since just about the day I signed up. An internet message board poster basing his opinions on facts and hard evidence? Now that is an example other posters can learn from.

[Pyrite Gal]

You may well be correct in your assessment of CB depth etc and it could well be a mistake made by the FO(though honestly, 1 player from a 4th round pick is never going to be a big mistake). The way I see it though is that if it seems sooooo obvious to fans.....why would our experts do the opposite? To assume an irrational bias towards CBs is unfair since for 3 offseasons our FO has pumped all the money into contracts for the lines(not at any other position).

 

There has to be other factors.....perhaps the biggest being that they (probably) had Corner rated well above any OLman in terms of potential.....especially when you consider that no OLman was selected within half a round after we selected Corner.

Perhaps us fans are over-rating the incumbent CBs......and under-rating the incumbent OLmen.

 

All I'm saying is that before we as fans go crying over "such a stupid pick" we should actually give things time to prove the situation. I relate this sort of thing back to Youboty & Whitner. Whitner was a "bad" pick in part because he was a 'reach'.

Youboty was a "good" pick because he was a 'steal'. As it turned out Whitner has been minimally a good solid performer(dispelling the 'reach' title) while Youboty has yet to do anything(dispelling the 'steal' title).

 

(Also that a 4th rounder has so little chance of making a difference this year that the whole discussion is relatively moot.)

I also liked your post as a dose of reality when looking at the CB situation, but I think folks are ignoring a couple of key things which may well be critical in how good (or not good) this team is.

 

A. The key to understanding the Corner pick IMHO is likely not gonna be what he will contribute to this team as a CB this year (likely very little in '08 as I think he will be #5 on the CB depth chart at best). He may follow the Greer track and several years down the line becomes a consistent CB player. However, I think the key to why he was picked and likely why we picked him quite early in the 4th round will be ST.

 

After being at the top of the NFL in various statistical ST rankings, 07 saw the Bills ST unit give up a few big returns which was unusual. Further, with the loss of ST stalwarts like Wire, Haggan and Stamer, this team will seriously be looking to reload its ST.

 

Corner showed great intensity and competitiveness in college. He was on his track team and likely has the speed to be a gunner for us. Though not known as a run plugger (a major role for a CB in our Cover 2) he got some positive reviews in assessments I have seen of him having good tackling techniques. He clearly has great athletic ability since he rose up the charts as a CB despite his short stature. He got several plaudits for having a good football head and ability to recognize plays. His high INT totals are an indicator of good ball skills.

 

My guess is that his major contributions to this team may well be as a gunner on the coverage units and potentially as a short return guy on the kickoff unit.

 

B. Has Youbouty disappointed? Yep

 

Is Youbouty a bust? Nope.

 

The biggest problem I have with him is whether he will be injury free after he was inconsistent even being available last season. However, folks who simply want to discard him with some judgment about his ability as a player seem to want to ignore:

 

1. The death of his Mom leaving him as the oldest child in a family which also did not have a Dad meant that his first year was basically a lost cause. Yet, overall, it was a football positive for him as he proved to be good enough in practice he won a start against NYJ when we had injury issues that forced us to go deep on the depth chart at CB. He played a pivotal role in this game against the cagey but rag armed Chad Pennington. Did he impress overwhelmingly?

 

No. he played in two other games and scored a few tackles but did not pick off the ball nor was he challenged much in pass coverate. Still the hope he would emerge as a starter in his second year was not a total fantasy to hope for.

 

2. he did not step up and take the job his second year when he had every chance to due to injury. Apparently he could not stay healthy enough to be seriously considered for the job. Nevertheless on the good side he did play the gunner role and made a couple of very nice tackles on ST.

 

Stil, though these are real reasons they do not qualify as excuses. You either do the job or you do not and he did not do the job in 08.

 

Still simply writing him off at this point seems way pre-mature. I would not count on Youbouty (the Bills certainly are not) but I would not also assume he will suck this year.

 

3. In general folks seem to focus on measuring whether a player worked out or not based on his performance as a position player. This is important and the lead measure of success for a player. However, simply because a player did not succeed at a high level as a position player does NOT mean he had a failed career or was a bust if he was a second day pick.

 

It seems fairly obvious that Steve Tasker had a near HOF if not really an HOF career though he never made it as a consistent position player to look at the extreme case. However, one can work your way in to Mark Pike and even to Sam Aiken who was judged valuable enough to be extended by the Bills and then valuable enough to receive early off-season interest from other team. He sucked as a position player and still does but he had a very useful career for the Bills and for himself personally in terms of cash and even achievement as he was a key to the team being ranked #1 in ST for several years and now has jumped to a team which was 18-1 last year in what we hoped will be a failed attempt to get an SB ring.

 

ST is critically important and while I expect that the first three picks were selected to make their primary contribution to the Bills with position play, all the rest are going to have the careers as Bills be judged good, bust or indifferent by their contribution to the ST performance.

 

Starting with Corner who afterall was the SECOND CB selected by the Bills at a position where many of us felt we needed a back-up or developmental choice there at most, any judgment about Corner which does not even mention his ST role is relatively ignorable.