Offensive Line

[Stussy109]

which numbers would those be.

 

The ones for the worst offensive production in team history , or

 

30+ in the NFL in 3rd down conversions, or

 

30th in overall offense, or

 

30th in passing

 

 

I guess that $75 million was well spent

 

 

I recall that Lynch's Rushing #'s YPC were highest running behind Big Ol' Langston Walker something in the high 4's.

[stuckincincy]

I recall that Lynch's Rushing #'s YPC were highest running behind Big Ol' Langston Walker something in the high 4's.

 

Lynch's 56 yarder against CIN upped the right-side average. IIRC, Walker was on the ground in the center of the line, as 2 CIN defenders missed their tackles for a loss in the backfield and Lynch was off and gone.

[San-O]

I'll give you that short yardage was not their best area. I would put a lot of the blame for that on three things. First, Fowler is undersized and on short yardage plays where leverage and weight are required in the middle to push the pile, he just can't get enough push to open those cracks and allow the back to get those yards. Second, using an H-Back is not effective in those situations. You need a big strong FB who can crack a hole in the line and spring the back for that necessary yard or two. Third, the playcalling was straight up the middle on the majority of those plays, right to where the line was weakest with Fowler blocking. Their success came when they ran left, towards the strength of the line with Dockery and Peters and TE on the outside. When they ran that way in short situations, they were much more likely to succeed. SF either didn't know or didn't care. If Fowler wasn't at center, this line would be All-Pro, but he is so the line is above average, and will likely be better this year.

 

 

I have a question, for anyone really: How is it that you have a professional football team, with pro coaches, and a very experienced O-line coach,

and the Bills weren't able to recognize the apparent strengths and weaknesses of this line and make any kind of adjustments?

 

These guys are getting paid to do that, aren't they?

[obie_wan]

I have a question, for anyone really: How is it that you have a professional football team, with pro coaches, and a very experienced O-line coach,

and the Bills weren't able to recognize the apparent strengths and weaknesses of this line and make any kind of adjustments?

 

These guys are getting paid to do that, aren't they?

 

 

Since Polian left, the Bills organization has been unable to identify and build a quality OL.

 

Since Modrak has been with the Bills they have used 2 picks in the top 3 rounds on OL talent - whiffing with Mike Williams and hitting on the injury prone Jonas Jennings who was let go to our free agent dumping ground - SF. The Bills have drafted some players who looked promising, like Merz and Pennington, but were let go before 2 years.

 

Maybe John Guy is to blame for his assessment of the free agents they have bruoght in like Tuten Reyes, Greg Jerman, Bennie Anderson, etc. Last year they got better than usual performance out of their OL free agents - but arguably the production was not consistent with an investment of $75 million.

 

 

The 2008 version should be much better than previous versions, but is weak at C which has absolutely crippled the running game. If any starter goes down for more than a game or 2, the injury will wreck havoc with the Bills offense and Trent's development.

 

But the front office experts are convinced that undrafted free agents are the answer at LT and the perennially lousy Preston of the Yulon is the answer at the interior - contrary to his actual performance on the field.

 

Maybe Kugler will be difference -

[Dibs]

Lynch's 56 yarder against CIN upped the right-side average. IIRC, Walker was on the ground in the center of the line, as 2 CIN defenders missed their tackles for a loss in the backfield and Lynch was off and gone.

Lynch had 2 runs of 56 yards......both to the right.

Stats were....

Left sideline....19-55-2.9ave

Left side....99-359-3.6ave

Middle....59-179-3.0ave

Right side....83-420-5.1ave

Right sideline....20-102-5.1ave

 

Total Left....118-414-3.5ave

Total Right....103-522-5.1ave

 

Even if you remove both 56 yard runs from the right side stats you get.....

101-410-4.1ave

 

I'm not putting forward any reasons for it but Lynch's production towards the right side of the line last season was dramatically better than the left.

[Steely Dan]

I was waiting to defer to someone who's a little more knowledgable on the subject, but no one has posted yet, so I'll get it started anyway.

 

Starters:

LT Jason Peters

LG Derrick Dockery

C Melvin Fowler

RG Brad Butler

RT Langston Walker

 

Peters is a UDFA TE turned LT. He's the strongest member of the line. He's very athletic and was selected to the Pro Bowl last year, but was injured late in the season, so he didn't make the trip. He's possibly the best player on the Bills roster. He consistently shuts down whoever is across from him, including 06 defensive MVP Jason Taylor everytime the Bills play the Dolphins.

 

Dockery is the highest paid player on the team, he's 6-6 330+ and is a very solid and dependable starter. Him and Peters could be the best left side tandem in the NFL if they improve their run blocking.

 

Melvin Fowler is probably the weak link on the line. He's smallish 6-3 310, and gets pushed off the line too easily sometimes. I've heard from the coaching staff and other players that he's a smart player, and a good leader on the line.

 

Brad Butler is 6-7 315. He's a young player who won the job last year in camp. He started every game and did a pretty good job. He has good technique, and should be improved from his experience last year. Someone else will have to fill in more...

 

Langston Walker is a big man 6-8 355. His first year with the Bills was last year. He was improved on pass protection from his years with the Raiders, but can improve run blocking. He's a smart guy and a smart player, but lacks some of the athletic ability, and needs to play more ferociously.

 

Those 5 guys started 15 consectutive games last season, until Peters got hurt in week 15. Once Peters went down, there was a notable drop off in the lines performance as a whole. Him playing well is vital to the Bills success. They were very good in pass protection last year, only allowing 26 sacks, and I anticipate that success carrying over. As a line, they need to play with a little more nastiness in the run game, because Marshawn Lynch rarely got to the second level untouched, which we need to have happen more often because he can be dangerous in space with a head of steam.

 

Consistency is a plus for this unit since they've been together a year now, and should be able to improve on their play from last year, which was overall very good. They're also a very big group, even for NFL OL standards.

 

It's hard for me to anticipate possible reasons why they might falter. If Peters goes down we could be screwed, as well as Dockery. Fowler could be a liability at center. Many on this board wanted to see us bring in a new center, which would help the line, but he's not exactly terrible either.

 

Someone will have to fill this man in on the backups...

 

I think that's an excellent summary.

 

 

I also see some hard questions for our OL, but your indictment overstates the case so badly its hard to defend what comes off as WGR like hysteria that we simply are DDOOOMMEEDD because our OL is in such bad shape.

 

I think there are real questions about:

 

1. whether Whittle's injury is just the first in the series that getting older players come down with which makes him a questionable back-up.

 

2. How will Chambers be if called upon for an extended stint.

 

3. Given that Preston proved not to be the answer at G (as proven by him being beaten out by Butler at a new position for him which many folks feel confident in him but he clearly is still learning) how do we feel about him as back-up C.

 

These certainly are issues to be concerned about, but it appears doubtful that anyone should be getting their panties all up in a wad over these issues which simply do not rise to the level of worries (yet).

 

I think it would be more than reasonable to be worried rather than simply concerned about these issues if they involved someone we saw as a starter.

 

Yet, though back-ups are an important thing in this league where injury is only a play away, perhaps the most indicative signs for us outsiders about how comfortable we should be with the back-ups is the level of intensity the braintrust shows in trying to pick up different answers for the back-up concerns.

 

It could easily be the case (and it appears to be judging from the candidates who were available and the team needs, that there simply was no specific player available in this draft at OL who was either:

 

1. A good enough player to be a better choice than a potential elite player McKelvin who slipped down to the #11 spot (is there some specific OL player whom you think was worthy of a #11 or is a better prospect than McKelvin.

 

2. Is OL (a RG at best but more likely a back-up) a greater need than a WR for our second choice (as the player picked would be a starter at WR but a likely back-up or depth player at the #2 pick I think WR was the right way to go).

 

3. The Bills seemed to have made a BPA pick for Ellis in the 3rd. This BPA will likely actually see some significant playing time for us as we run a DL rotation while a BPA OL player would likely have warmed the bench and not contributed much to the Bills in 08 if we were lucky,

 

4. The big endorsement of the Bills coaches actually was shown when there was not any huge FA investments for OL depth though we had the cash to do this. Is there a credible case to be made that there was some specific player we should have gone after to increase our OL depth.

 

In the absence of a suggestion of real alternatives then such a broad based indictment comes off as merely a whine.

 

A big part of the problem was that the opposing D could stack the line of scrimmage because the only deep threat the Bills had was Evans. It's really a testament to the O line IMO that Lynch got 1,100 yards last year. If Hardy is half of what he's eventually expected to be the opposing D will not be able to stack the line again. The safeties will have to hang back because Evans, Hardy and Parrish or Reed will be out there too. I think with the addition of Hardy the Bills receiving corps is given a huge shot in the arm. His presence will make every other receiver more productive. At the same time this will help the O line because they won't have as many rushers anymore. I expect big things from this O this year.

 

[Phil03]

Thanks everyone for all your help. For those interested in my article here it is:

2008 Projected Starters:

Left Tackle: Jason Peters

Left Guard: Derrick Dockery

Center: Melvin Fowler

Right Guard: Brad Butler

Right Tackle: Langston Walker

 

2007 Injuries:

T Jason Peters: Week 17

 

2007 Statistics:

LEFT END LEFT TACKLE MID/GUARD RIGHT TACKLE RIGHT END Passing

ALY Rank ALY Rank ALY Rank ALY Rank ALY Rank Sacks Rank

2.8 29 3.9 23 4.02 19 4.65 6 3.48 26 26 11

ALY (Adjusted Line Yards): It is an alternate measure for yards per carry developed by Football Outsiders that takes into account various factors including down, distance, situation and opponent.

Source: www.footballoutsiders.com

 

Overview:

The Buffalo Bills offense was once again disappointing in 2007 but this time the offensive line was not the problem. The last time the Bills had given up less than 35 sacks was in 1999 when Doug Flutie was the starting quarterback. This year, the line only gave up 26 and allowed the running backs to run for a league average 4.0 yards per carry. Unfortunately, the play of quarterbacks J.P. Losman and Trent Edwards was sub par and the Bills won less than half of their games for a third consecutive season.

 

At left tackle, the Bills have one of the best in the NFL in Jason Peters. Peters was signed in 2004 by the Bills as an undrafted free agent and after spending a season as a blocking tight end, made the switch to right tackle for the 2005 season. He made the switch to the left side in the middle of the 2006 season and has done an excellent job ever since. Peters is strong and big at 6’4” and 340 lbs and is also extremely smart. He has adjusted very quickly to the tackle position and will continue to improve as he gains experience. He has great work ethic and is surprisingly athletic for his size. Peters only gave up six sacks and was named to the Pro Bowl team but was unable to play because of an injury he suffered late in the season. Overall, Peters is an excellent pass protecting lineman but his run blocking is only above average for a starting left tackle. On the right side, the Bills have another very big tackle in Langston Walker. Walker was signed as an unrestricted free agent from Oakland and is one of the biggest in the league at 6’8” and 365 lbs. He obviously lacks athleticism because of his size but managed to improve as a pass blocking lineman although he often received help from the tight end or running back. Walker is much better at run blocking than pass protecting but still has a lot of room for improvement. He is strong so will be very good at blocking when the run is behind him but he lacks the athleticism and technique to seal the corner or block to the outside. Kirk Chambers is the backup on the left side and had a very difficult game when he replaced Peters in week 17. Chambers lacks athleticism to stay with speedy defensive ends and will need tight end help if he is required to play. The Bills also added Demetrius Bell in the seventh round of the draft but he is still very raw and has a lot to learn before he can play in the NFL.

 

The Bills signed Derrick Dockery to a seven-year deal worth 49 million dollars in the 2007 off-season to be the team’s starting left guard. Dockery spent the first four seasons of his career with the Redskins without missing a single game. He certainly did not disappoint and is one of the reasons why the Bills line was so good at pass protecting in 2007. Dockery is another big lineman at 6’6” and 330 lbs whose strength allows him to avoid being pushed into the backfield. He however struggles when asked to pull to the outside because of his lack of athleticism. He also seems to lack aggressiveness in run blocking and is one of the reasons why the Bills ranked near the bottom of the league when running to the left. Similar to Peters, Dockery is an excellent pass protecting lineman but remains average at best in run blocking. On the other side is Brad Butler, a 6’7” and 315 lbs fifth round pick who played tackle at Virginia but adjusted very well to the guard position in his first season as a starter. He has great work ethic and should continue to improve as he gains experience at his new position. Butler is excellent when he stays in his position but similar to Dockery, he will struggle if asked to pull to the outside. Butler earned the starting job in camp last season when he beat out Duke Preston and Jacon Whittle, the two backup guards. Preston is a former fourth round pick who was the favorite to win the starting job at right guard but struggled in camp and in limited action in 2007. He also has the ability to play center which may be a better position for him but either way he is not someone the Bills want to count on for an extended period of time. Jason Whittle is a veteran at 33 years old and missed most of the season after suffering an injury in week 3. He is a capable backup but lacks strength and will get pushed into the backfield too often.

 

The center position was the weak link on the offensive line for the Bills in 2007 and unfortunately it will be the case once again this season. Melvin Fowler will return as starter for a third consecutive season after the Bills failed to address the situation in the off-season. He has decent size at 6’3” and 310 lbs but lacks strength to create holes in the running game and is average in pass protection. Fowler is also a liability in short yardage situations which was a problem all season long for the Bills in 2007.

 

2008 Outlook:

The Bills will be returning all five starters on the offensive line in 2008. The line had a few troubles early in the season but it built chemistry later on and was very good in pass protection. The Bills only gave up 13 sacks in the last 11 games of the season after giving up 13 in the first five games. As a result, the passing game also improved and the team averaged 181 passing yards as opposed to only 128 in the first five games. The problem with the Bills line is that there is very little depth and the offense will be in even more trouble if Dockery, Peters or Walker go down with an injury. Overall the Bills offensive line is excellent in pass protection and slightly below average in run blocking but could improve with better schemes since all the linemen have the size to be dominant in run blocking.

 

Information provided by members of StadiumWall.com

[colin]

I think that's an excellent summary.

 

 

 

 

A big part of the problem was that the opposing D could stack the line of scrimmage because the only deep threat the Bills had was Evans. It's really a testament to the O line IMO that Lynch got 1,100 yards last year. If Hardy is half of what he's eventually expected to be the opposing D will not be able to stack the line again. The safeties will have to hang back because Evans, Hardy and Parrish or Reed will be out there too. I think with the addition of Hardy the Bills receiving corps is given a huge shot in the arm. His presence will make every other receiver more productive. At the same time this will help the O line because they won't have as many rushers anymore. I expect big things from this O this year.

 

 

exactly. LB's had a gap picked out and just had to run downhill on most short running plays against us. a good medium pass WR would have torched those a couple times.

[Huuuge Bills]

Thanks everyone for all your help. For those interested in my article here it is:

 

Good job.

[Captain Hindsight]

Thanks everyone for all your help. For those interested in my article here it is:

Thanks good read

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Until someone provides something more than an overly broad statement such as "the Bills should be drafting OL to develop backups" and can explain why that would be a BETTER strategy than what the Bills did in this draft, it's all just talk.

Because having one competent backup lineman is more important than your 5th cornerback?

[eball]

Because having one competent backup lineman is more important than your 5th cornerback?

If the Bills had drafted anyone in the early or middle rounds to be a 5th cornerback, your argument might carry more weight.

[obie_wan]

If the Bills had drafted anyone in the early or middle rounds to be a 5th cornerback, your argument might carry more weight.

that would be Reggie Corner in the 4th and youboty in the 3rd 2 years ago.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

If the Bills had drafted anyone in the early or middle rounds to be a 5th cornerback, your argument might carry more weight.

You'll have to explain just who out of McGee, Greer, McKelvin and the oft-overlooked Will James you expect Corner to surpass in the next few seasons.

 

If Buffalo had taken a lineman in the 4th round, he might've been penciled in as the number one lineman off the bench by day one of training camp.

 

Even if Corner is a pretty good player, I'm finding it hard to understand what he'd do for this team. Normally it doesn't make much sense to get picky with positions once you get past that 3rd round, but these are extenuating circumstances: I can't think of a position where we were more stacked heading into that pick.

 

A 3rd round pick with a first round grade who we'd selected just two years ago was already our #5 cornerback before the pick was made. I'm assuming they've lost interest in Youboty, but still...was it really so necessary to address that 5th CB spot?

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

that would be Reggie Corner in the 4th and youboty in the 3rd 2 years ago.

I'm sure they drafted Youboty believing he could become a starter at (what was at the time) a position of need. Corner is a different story, IMO. He'd have to be some kind of player to ascend to a starting role before his contract runs out.

[Dibs]

You'll have to explain just who out of McGee, Greer, McKelvin and the oft-overlooked Will James you expect Corner to surpass in the next few seasons.

It is quite unlikely that Greer will be a Bill past this season. IIRC he is in the last year of his contract which means.....if he plays well this year & improves he will warrant a contract which I'd imagine our FO will not want to pay....or if he regresses we probably will not want to re-sign him anyway.

 

James is signed up for 2 seasons for relatively low money.....he is a true stopgap pickup. Unless he shows himself to be a consistent performer he will likely be gone after 2 years.

 

Youboty.....just my opinion but he is as good as gone after this season. Must show great improvement to stay.

 

Overall we have a bunch of guys who might end up being good enough for the #3 job longterm.

 

If Buffalo had taken a lineman in the 4th round, he might've been penciled in as the number one lineman off the bench by day one of training camp.

And who might that have been?

Corner was chosen at #114...the next OLman was picked at #130(Tony Hills) a full half a round later. To be penciled in as a starter we would have been looking for someone who can play C or maybe RG. Hills is a pure OT. The only player who could possibly have had the chance of that was Josh Sitton(#135, last pick in 4th round). Even if there was a legitimate C/OG pick when we chose Corner....there would only have been a 1 in 5 chance that he would eventually become a legit starter(obviously less chance he could start immediately).

 

Assuming that the FO had Corner rated quite a deal higher than any OLman(which seems to be the case with all teams)....it would have been remiss of them to pass on him. Depth at CB is probably more important than depth on the OL. Apart from CBs get injured more often, there is a regular need for 3(if not 4) of them to be on the field at one time.

Even if Corner is a pretty good player, I'm finding it hard to understand what he'd do for this team. Normally it doesn't make much sense to get picky with positions once you get past that 3rd round, but these are extenuating circumstances: I can't think of a position where we were more stacked heading into that pick.

 

A 3rd round pick with a first round grade who we'd selected just two years ago was already our #5 cornerback before the pick was made. I'm assuming they've lost interest in Youboty, but still...was it really so necessary to address that 5th CB spot?

What Corner can do for this team is become the long term #3(or #4) CB for several years.....and if he does become good enough can replace McGee down the road.

I disagree with the 1st round grade on Youboty. Just because the media rated him that highly pre-draft does not mean he was a 1st round talent.....if he was, why did he drop to the 3rd? Obviously every team did not have him rated as that or he would surely been chosen in the 2nd. Youboty most likely will not pan out.....and with the inevitable loss of Greer after 1 season....and James the season after, there is a good chance that Corner was drafted to potentially be the #3 guy.

 

To me, if one was wanting to improve the OL in any real way it makes more sense to argue that we should have passed on McKelvin and drafted Albert instead.......but then maybe the potential dropoff from Albert to Butler was assessed as less than the dropoff from McKelvin to Greer(James,Youboty).

 

On top of that, one has to consider what grades the FO has our current OL backups as....most likely they grade them higher than most fans do.

[Steely Dan]

It is quite unlikely that Greer will be a Bill past this season. IIRC he is in the last year of his contract which means.....if he plays well this year & improves he will warrant a contract which I'd imagine our FO will not want to pay....or if he regresses we probably will not want to re-sign him anyway.

 

James is signed up for 2 seasons for relatively low money.....he is a true stopgap pickup. Unless he shows himself to be a consistent performer he will likely be gone after 2 years.

 

Youboty.....just my opinion but he is as good as gone after this season. Must show great improvement to stay.

 

Overall we have a bunch of guys who might end up being good enough for the #3 job longterm.

 

 

And who might that have been?

Corner was chosen at #114...the next OLman was picked at #130(Tony Hills) a full half a round later. To be penciled in as a starter we would have been looking for someone who can play C or maybe RG. Hills is a pure OT. The only player who could possibly have had the chance of that was Josh Sitton(#135, last pick in 4th round). Even if there was a legitimate C/OG pick when we chose Corner....there would only have been a 1 in 5 chance that he would eventually become a legit starter(obviously less chance he could start immediately).

 

Assuming that the FO had Corner rated quite a deal higher than any OLman(which seems to be the case with all teams)....it would have been remiss of them to pass on him. Depth at CB is probably more important than depth on the OL. Apart from CBs get injured more often, there is a regular need for 3(if not 4) of them to be on the field at one time.

 

What Corner can do for this team is become the long term #3(or #4) CB for several years.....and if he does become good enough can replace McGee down the road.

I disagree with the 1st round grade on Youboty. Just because the media rated him that highly pre-draft does not mean he was a 1st round talent.....if he was, why did he drop to the 3rd? Obviously every team did not have him rated as that or he would surely been chosen in the 2nd. Youboty most likely will not pan out.....and with the inevitable loss of Greer after 1 season....and James the season after, there is a good chance that Corner was drafted to potentially be the #3 guy.

 

To me, if one was wanting to improve the OL in any real way it makes more sense to argue that we should have passed on McKelvin and drafted Albert instead.......but then maybe the potential dropoff from Albert to Butler was assessed as less than the dropoff from McKelvin to Greer(James,Youboty).

 

On top of that, one has to consider what grades the FO has our current OL backups as....most likely they grade them higher than most fans do.

 

I think Greer will be here long term. I don't think he'll command a high price and he seems to like Buffalo. Call it a gut feeling but I think he'll be around for awhile.

 

I also get a feeling that Youboty will have a breakout year this year.

 

Now having said that I must add this little fact. Every time I make predictions the opposite seems to come true so look for Greer to be gone at seasons end and for Youboty to suck this year. Why do I even try?

[Dibs]

Now having said that I must add this little fact. Every time I make predictions the opposite seems to come true so look for Greer to be gone at seasons end and for Youboty to suck this year. Why do I even try?

Nicely saved. You now are predicting your prediction will not come true.....that means that that prediction is bound to not come true....so your original prediction is now bound to come true.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Overall we have a bunch of guys who might end up being good enough for the #3 job longterm.

I'm of the opinion we've gotten way, way past that point with Greer. He held his own as a starter last year, and thats one of the reasons the result of the 1st round bothers me a bit. To say he might end up being good enough for the nickel is short-changing (pun intended) what he accomplished last season. On a Cover 2 team with a good pass rush, Greer fits right in with Indy's corners.

 

He's shown he's (at the very least!) a nickel back in this league. That said, he isn't a 'name' player, so I see no reason why we couldn't lock him up for a realistic price, especially if CB depth is of the importance most here say it is.

 

Besides that, let me get this straight: we don't draft a replacement for Fletcher until after he's gone. We don't draft a replacement for McGahee until after he's gone. We don't draft a replacement for Crowell at the foothills of his walk year. But we have to draft a nickel back before Greer's walk year, and a full two seasons before Will James' contract expires?

 

Absolutely. Nickel Back > Middle Linebacker.

 

Nickel back isn't necessarily something you have to plan two seasons in advance for.

 

And who might that have been?

Corner was chosen at #114...the next OLman was picked at #130(Tony Hills) a full half a round later. To be penciled in as a starter we would have been looking for someone who can play C or maybe RG. Hills is a pure OT. The only player who could possibly have had the chance of that was Josh Sitton(#135, last pick in 4th round). Even if there was a legitimate C/OG pick when we chose Corner....there would only have been a 1 in 5 chance that he would eventually become a legit starter(obviously less chance he could start immediately).

I do believe you've misinterpreted my post. I'd never dream of finding an immediate starter for this team in the 4th round...I'd like to think our personnel overall is alot better than that.

 

Assuming that the FO had Corner rated quite a deal higher than any OLman(which seems to be the case with all teams)....it would have been remiss of them to pass on him. Depth at CB is probably more important than depth on the OL. Apart from CBs get injured more often, there is a regular need for 3(if not 4) of them to be on the field at one time.

All things being even, thats already debatable. Things weren't even close to being even, though.

 

After the McKelvin pick and before the Corner pick, cornerback was already one of the deepest positions on the team. Three cornerbacks with significant starting experience, PLUS (according to most) a rookie with a top-10 grade.

 

Speaking strictly in terms of depth, offensive line on the other hand is probably the weakest unit on the team. Of course if Jason Peters goes down the season is all but over...he's a Pro Bowl left tackle. A player that makes that kind of impact can't be replaced. Can't blame the front office for that.

 

The problem is that if any starting lineman goes down for the count, this offense will likely be moving with a serious handicap. The bench is simply an empty cupboard. I'd rather see Preston replaced by a UDFA I know nothing about. Whittle will be run over by big interior lineman. Chambers would need extensive help in pass protection. There just isn't anyone at any position you can feel comfortable with.

 

I'm confident that the scouting department could have found a competent backup in the 4th round...hell, they've been known to find starters from time to time.

 

But, alas, it was more important to replace Greer before we know if he's leaving and Will James 2 years before we need to worry about it.

 

I understand drafting for value. I didn't question the Edwards or D. Wright picks last year, as most did...because the personnel overall was quite lacking, and getting a good player in the middle-late rounds at any position was a good thing.

 

But at a certain point you have to say, "The depth chart is full here. Its time to cross this position off the list, and look elsewhere." I could've sworn we'd reached that point after the McKelvin pick. Offensive line isn't the only place they could've gone, it just would have been a good 'elsewhere' to start with.

 

What Corner can do for this team is become the long term #3(or #4) CB for several years.....and if he does become good enough can replace McGee down the road.

I disagree with the 1st round grade on Youboty. Just because the media rated him that highly pre-draft does not mean he was a 1st round talent.....if he was, why did he drop to the 3rd? Obviously every team did not have him rated as that or he would surely been chosen in the 2nd. Youboty most likely will not pan out.....and with the inevitable loss of Greer after 1 season....and James the season after, there is a good chance that Corner was drafted to potentially be the #3 guy.

Good points regarding Youboty. In my defense, I do strongly remember (and I think others will concur) hearing that some teams DID have a 1st round grade on him. Thats what I was referring to, I just worded it too strongly.

 

On top of that, one has to consider what grades the FO has our current OL backups as....most likely they grade them higher than most fans do.

Right. Duke Preston to the rescue.

[Dibs]

I'm of the opinion we've gotten way, way past that point with Greer. He held his own as a starter last year, and thats one of the reasons the result of the 1st round bothers me a bit. To say he might end up being good enough for the nickel is short-changing (pun intended) what he accomplished last season. On a Cover 2 team with a good pass rush, Greer fits right in with Indy's corners.

 

He's shown he's (at the very least!) a nickel back in this league. That said, he isn't a 'name' player, so I see no reason why we couldn't lock him up for a realistic price, especially if CB depth is of the importance most here say it is.

 

Besides that, let me get this straight: we don't draft a replacement for Fletcher until after he's gone. We don't draft a replacement for McGahee until after he's gone. We don't draft a replacement for Crowell at the foothills of his walk year. But we have to draft a nickel back before Greer's walk year, and a full two seasons before Will James' contract expires?

 

Absolutely. Nickel Back > Middle Linebacker.

 

Nickel back is something you can realize you need, pick up a 3rd round rookie, and move on. It isn't something you have to plan two seasons in advance for.

I guess we'll see with Greer....it'd be wonderful if he(& the pass D) improve this season & we can lock him up for a reasonable price.

 

I think you are not looking at history in perspective. Since 2006(after TD) we have replaced 17 of the 22 starting players. We didn't have the luxury of being able to replace them all in 2006.....that year we were replacing SS, FS, DT, RG & attempted CB, TE & DT......finding LF replacement that year(the year before he left) was well down the list of priorities. We spent 1st & 2nd round picks to replace WM & LF in 2007.....we needed those players to pan out since again, we didn't have the luxury for them to fail.

Entering this draft(2008) we only realistically had 7 positions(FS, CB, C, RG, #2WR, TE, FB) which we were not locked into at starter(due to either ability, contract or potential). We used 1st on CB & 2nd on #2WR leaving IMO C & TE being the only obvious weakness.

 

We didn't have to draft a nickel back.....but what are the options in the 4th round? It's a 4th round pick.....not likely to become a starter let alone a good one. I assume that we went for the best talent on our board so as to maximize the chances that we end up with a player who can play.

Again I ask....."Who would we pick instead.....and what could we realistically expect from them?"

All this fuss over a 4th round pick most likely destined either way to be a backup at best.

 

Re: Crowell.....hopefully we will re-sign him.

 

I do believe you've misinterpreted my post. I'd never dream of finding an immediate starter for this team in the 4th round...I'd like to think our personnel overall is alot better than that.

Looks like I did

After the McKelvin pick and before the Corner pick, cornerback was already one of the deepest positions on the team. Three cornerbacks with significant starting experience, PLUS (according to most) a rookie with a top-10 grade.

 

Speaking strictly in terms of depth, offensive line on the other hand is probably the weakest unit on the team. Of course if Jason Peters goes down the season is all but over...he's a Pro Bowl left tackle. A player that makes that kind of impact can't be replaced. Can't blame the front office for that.

 

The problem is that if any starting lineman goes down for the count, this offense will likely be moving with a serious handicap. The bench is simply an empty cupboard. I'd rather see Preston replaced by a UDFA I know nothing about. Whittle will be run over by big interior lineman. Chambers would need extensive help in pass protection. There just isn't anyone at any position you can feel comfortable with.

 

I'm confident that the scouting department could have found a competent backup in the 4th round...hell, they've been known to find starters from time to time.

 

But, alas, it was more important to replace Greer before we know if he's leaving and Will James 2 years before we need to worry about it.

 

I understand drafting for value. I didn't question the Edwards or D. Wright picks last year, as most did...because the personnel overall was quite lacking, and getting a good player in the middle-late rounds at any position was a good thing.

 

But at a certain point you have to say, "The depth chart is full here. Its time to cross this position off the list, and look elsewhere." I could've sworn we'd reached that point after the McKelvin pick. Offensive line isn't the only place they could've gone, it just would have been a good 'elsewhere' to start with.

 

 

Good points regarding Youboty. In my defense, I do strongly remember (and I think others will concur) hearing that some teams DID have a 1st round grade on him. Thats what I was referring to, I just worded it too strongly.

 

 

Right. Duke Preston to the rescue.

It all comes back to either trust.....or distrust. Just because things seem a to be a certain way does not actually mean that they are. In the 2006 draft we(as fans who knew everything about this team) were desperate to draft an OT. We not only didn't draft one in the 1st round but had to wait till the 7th(IIRC) for us to get one. "What was the FO doing???" Well....strangely they had better knowledge of their players than we did & 2 seasons later we have a pro-bowl LT.

 

My point is that until this FO show that they have actually made a mistake it is simply unfair to assume that they have. Honestly, is it likely that a 4th round OLman instead of a CB is that much more obvious and important that one can say that picking the CB(who one has no real idea of how his, nor his OL counterparts were rated) was the 'only logical choice'?