PFW:Increase in season-ticket sales only Band-Aid for Bills' finan

[Heitz]

"With the Bills having already surpassed last year’s season-ticket sales of 48,236, many have seen the spike as a unified voice indicating that the Bills’ fans are “protesting” the relocation of eight games over a five-year span from Buffalo to Toronto."

 

I'm confused by the basic premise here - Bills fans are protesting by buying *more* season tickets?

 

That'll really show management that the fans are pissed...

[elegantelliotoffen]

sounds like someone wants to write about his own opinion but under the guise of an "inside source"

[Fewell733]

sounds like someone wants to write about his own opinion but under the guise of an "inside source"

 

bingo - PFW doesn't really practice journalism. Why are we worried about this article, it's totally irrelevant. Might as well have been a fan posting on the internet forecasting doom and gloom and saying that he knows a guy that knows a guy.

[Lurker]

also, Jack Kemp is a chairman for multiple billion dollar corporations, there is no doubt his friends could buy the Bills.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Kemp is a corporate chairman, or even wealthy. While he's a board member at several corporations, like Oracle, that doen't give him any real power. Mostly, Jack remains a big idea think tank guy, who remains very good at getting real wealthy people to contribute to his various social and political causes.

 

Maybe Jack could convince his contributors that Buffalo is a poor third world nation that would slip into anarchy and social chaos, threatening U.S. stability if the Bills left town. It just might work, actually...

[Lurker]

[/b]

 

 

Inside source you ask?

 

 

Both Marv Levy and Dick Jauron are good friends with Pro Football Weekly's publisher Hub Arkush.

Just because both guys have Chicago ties and know Arkush, do you honestly think they'd be a source for anything Bills-related, other than 'we have a group of fine young men..."? Yeah, I can really see Marv talking about something like the Bills relocating behind Ralph's back....

 

It's just as likely that the 'source close to the team' is someone in the local media that the writer knows, which is how most of these stories get put together.

[Fingon]

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Kemp is a corporate chairman, or even wealthy. While he's a board member at several corporations, like Oracle, that doen't give him any real power. Mostly, Jack remains a big idea think tank guy, who remains very good at getting real wealthy people to contribute to his various social and political causes.

 

Maybe Jack could convince his contributors that Buffalo is a poor third world nation that would slip into anarchy and social chaos, threatening U.S. stability if the Bills left town. It just might work, actually...

 

Director for

AVP, Incorporated (AVPI)

 

Director for

Six Flags, Incorporated (SIX)

 

Chairman of the Board/Director for

Sports Properties Acquisition Corporation (HMR)

 

Director for

Hawk Corporation (HWK)

 

And on the Board of Directors at Oracle....

 

Sounds like a man with many corporate connections and friends. And being a director doesn't give him any real power? Thats news to me. I'm sure if it came down to it; Kemp could find investors to buy the Bills.

[Lurker]

Director for

AVP, Incorporated (AVPI)

 

Director for

Six Flags, Incorporated (SIX)

 

Chairman of the Board/Director for

Sports Properties Acquisition Corporation (HMR)

 

Director for

Hawk Corporation (HWK)

 

And on the Board of Directors at Oracle....

 

Sounds like a man with many corporate connections and friends. And being a director doesn't give him any real power? Thats news to me. I'm sure if it came down to it; Kemp could find investors to buy the Bills.

Being a board member means you meet several times a year, nod occasionally at presentations, and collect your stipend of $25,000 or so. Some power.

 

He may know wealthy people, but he's not one of them. He could be a matchmaker, but we already have enough of those, thank you.

[Fingon]

Being a board member means you meet several times a year, nod occasionally at presentations, and collect your stipend of $25,000 or so. Some power.

 

He may know wealthy people, but he's not one of them. He could be a matchmaker, but we already have enough of those, thank you.

We already have enough match makers? I doubt it... can you name one other? Kelly is going through Kemp.

[Fingon]

"Other than President Ronald Reagan himself, few people in the political world have had more influence on the last quarter century of wealth creation and rising levels of entrepreneurial business expansion than Jack F. Kemp."

- Steve Forbes

[Lurker]

We already have enough match makers? I doubt it... can you name one other? Kelly is going through Kemp.

This guy, for one, has more juice than either Jimbo or Jack...

[Fingon]

This guy, for one, has more juice than either Jimbo or Jack...

I seriously doubt it. Kemp has been pro-business for years. He was a congressman for 18, the head of HUD, and a vice presidential candidate. In fact, that Steve Forbes quote says it all, he has a lot of friends in business.

[True]

... Why are we worried about this article, it's totally irrelevant. Might as well have been a fan posting on the internet forecasting doom and gloom and saying that he knows a guy that knows a guy.

 

 

IMO seasons are up on the potential of great games on a soft schedule and a few guys buying them as this "might" be the last chance.

 

 

B.

[Flbillsfan#1]

Wrong. They own them first for the profit, second for the pleasure. Winning increase profits and increases pleasure, which inflates their ego. But don't be foolish enough to think that anyone invests $800M or more for pleasure. Sorry, I'm a diehard Bills fan and if I bought the team, it's be first as an investment and second as pleasure.

When Ralph Wilson, Lamar Hunt, and the rest of the original owners of teams in the old AFL started that league, the KNEW they were going to lose money to begin with. They called themselves the foolish club, as in you had to be foolish & crazy to invest in such a scheme. They started the AFL for their PLEASURE not to make money. There were a number of original owners that didn't have pockets deep enough, or the stomach to continue to lose money, and they got out, taking a financial bath in the process. NOBODY in todays NFL will purchase a team expecting to lose money...I don't think it is even possible to do so, but I think anyone buying a team will do so because they want to be a part of the NFL, not to make money (not that they don't expect to) The ONLY chance Buffalo has to keep the Bills is if one or more people with DEEP POCKETS LOVES the Buffalo area enough to buy the team keeping it in Buffalo, knowing they could make much more money if they move the team.

[Pyrite Gal]

they probably could

 

but being members of multi-billion $ corps, their interest would be in maximizing the return on their investment - which would require moving the team to a city where the county govt is not the largest employer.

 

luxury boxes and additinal revenue streams from big business is the name of the game - and its not happening in Buffalo.

You are right that the key here is maximizing return on investment.

 

I simply think folks are being short-sighted about this if they view the answer to the maximizing return on investment as only being a choice between Toronto or Buffalo. In fact, the maximum return on investment for the NFL which ultimately controls who will be accepted as a partner/owner or not in the NFL is to gain return on investment from BOTH Toronto and Buffalo.

 

In order for someone to not see this view which I think is truth, they end up investing in ideas such as the statement above which claimed the Buffalo season ticket base of 48,000+ was a "liability."

 

This is flat out wrong.

 

Yes the season ticket base in WNY is almost certainly less than the POTENTIAL season ticket base from the GTA (the Greater Toronto Area for you folks who do not listen to Canadian radio as this Buffaloanian does). However, rather than looking at this as some sort of liability because it is smaller than the POTENTIAL GTA base, the WNY season ticket base was built through almost 40 years of work, has built a franchise worth 100s of millions of dollars, from a chump change initial investment by Ralph, and would just be silly to discard when one can almost certainly maximize return on investment by having franchises in BOTH Buffalo and Toronto.

 

It simply seems silly for me for folks to simply ignore the possibility of fulfilling the NFL's clear goal of expanding the franchise to non-American countries by setting up a franchise in Toronto while maintaining the 100s of millions of dollars which is lodged in Buffalo.

 

Do folks really think there is more of a return on investment from having only Toronto or only Buffalo when there easily is a case to be made for having franchises in Buffalo and Toronto as the even a nickel and dime effort like the NHL has been able to pull off this off with the two areas supporting both the Maple Leafs and the Sabres.

 

While the arena is obviously much larger for football than hockey, there also are a ton more dates to be filled for hockey than for football.

 

I think the return on investment question clearly points one in the direction of having franchises in both towns.

 

Perhaps the distinction here is that many have an outmoded view of the NFL as being a bunch of plucky individual owners, when since the CBA was forced on the NFL by the players in the early 90s, this ain't your grandmother's league anymore. Ralph getting voted down 30-2 in the last go around with the was likely the last hurrah of the individual owner as the controlling element in this partnership.

 

The return on investment question is one that will be determined by the NFL as a whole which has the ultimate decision on who to accept as an owner or not.

[obie_wan]

It's not as if they buy a team in order to lose money, but the idea that they run it like any other business is foolish.

you are right-

 

owners like Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones are all for sharing the wealth with the other small market teams

[Fingon]

Can you really make more money in Toronto?

 

1) You have to pay a relocation fee to the NFL (it's somewhere in the hundreds of millions)

2) You will probably have to pay for the majority of a new stadium

3) Corporate taxes in Canada are much higher

4) You will likely have to pay Erie County money for breaking the lease on the stadium.

 

 

Not to mention the Bills are already top 10 in profits.

 

 

Honestly, who would go through all that to make $40-50 million a year? You are already making $20 million.

[Fingon]

Buying an NFL team isn't a very good way to make money. You have to pay $1 billion, then you have to finance a stadium (if necessary),and then you have to pay a re-location fee (if necessary).

 

 

How much would this cost you? Close to $1.5 billion for $50 million a year return. Anyone who buys the Bills will not be doing it for the money.

[Lori]

4) You will likely have to pay Erie County money for breaking the lease on the stadium.

Lease runs out in 2012, and so far, the Bills have rebuffed the county's attempts to begin negotiating a new one...

[Lurker]

I seriously doubt it. Kemp has been pro-business for years. He was a congressman for 18, the head of HUD, and a vice presidential candidate. In fact, that Steve Forbes quote says it all, he has a lot of friends in business.

Big whoop. Now he runs a 3-man lobbying firm and sits on a few boards. Former congressmen and VP candidates are a dime a dozen...and unless McCain wins in November, maybe worth less than that wholesale.

 

Unless Kemp can align himself with a group that has a vested interest in keeping the team in WNY, his national business contacts aren't that helpful, IMO.

[Lurker]

Buying an NFL team isn't a very good way to make money. You have to pay $1 billion, then you have to finance a stadium (if necessary),and then you have to pay a re-location fee (if necessary).

 

 

How much would this cost you? Close to $1.5 billion for $50 million a year return. Anyone who buys the Bills will not be doing it for the money.

NFL owners make money on the appreciation in the team's value, not on an operating income basis. It's an asset that appreciates 15%-20% per year, all of which is tax-deferred until they sell the franchise.