late round draft value

[BillsVet]

You say this as if it's a bad thing. Didn't New England* "luck" into Tom Brady? What's your point? It's great that Peters turned into the LT he is, because it allowed the Bills to focus on other areas.

 

Your second sentence is idiotic. The Bills drafted for a STARTING corner; if they needed STARTERS on the OL I'd be looking for them to draft there. Believe it or not, OL DEPTH falls below DB STARTERS in priority.

 

 

You "think" it's safe to say? Got a hidden microphone at OBD, do ya? More ridiculousness. How do I describe 7 DBs in 3 years? Competition. Three of them will be starting on opening day (Whitner, McKelvin, Simpson). Another will likely be the nickel (Corner). That's pretty good drafting.

 

Tell me when DB's can pass protect for a QB in the pocket. Tell me when they run block to give your RB a chance to get more than 4 ypc. Please.

 

San Francisco paid a king's ransom for their secondary (Clements, Michael Lewis, et al) and still their team is poor. Part of it is related to QB play, and part is due to a lackluster OL they've only recently began to address.

 

My reasoning for DJ being the deciding factor in picks? How about he's a former NFL DB? How about Day 1 in 2006? With extreme weaknesses on OL and DL, they take 3 DB's in their first 4 picks. Predominantly in rounds 1-3, Buffalo's taken a host of defensive players. Think that's not related to the HC? I do. Especially considering that 6 of their 9 picks in rounds 1-3 the past three drafts have been defenders. And that's considering they already had Schobel, Kelsay, McGee, Crowell, and signed Stround, Mitchell, S. Johnson, and Tripplett. Yes, DJ is the decider at OBD on draft day.

[Dibs]

22 of 32 teams drafted an OL, 4th round or higher, this year...

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker#tab:dt-by-position|pos-ol

Not that I think it means anything but.......

It was actually 18 of 32 teams drafted an OL, 4th round or higher this year.....14 teams didn't.

 

Again....not that I think it means anything but......

23 of 32 teams drafted a DB, 4th round or higher this year......only 9 didn't.

 

FWIW.....and again I don't think it means anything.....

18 of 32 teams drafted a DL, 4th round or higher this year.....14 teams didn't.

[Dawgg]

Not that I think it means anything but.......

It was actually 18 of 32 teams drafted an OL, 4th round or higher this year.....14 teams didn't.

 

Again....not that I think it means anything but......

23 of 32 teams drafted a DB, 4th round or higher this year......only 9 didn't.

 

They're BOTH important.

 

But the problem is that the Bills draft DBs year after year, neglecting O-Line prospects in the middle rounds in favor of project tight ends, DBs and wide receivers. When you consistently do that year after year, you're in trouble.

[Dibs]

They're BOTH important.

 

But the problem is that the Bills draft DBs year after year, neglecting O-Line prospects in the middle rounds in favor of project tight ends, DBs and wide receivers. When you consistently do that year after year, you're in trouble.

I totally agree that we have not spent enough resources in the past on the OL but I just don't understand why now....at this point in time.....it has become a huge bash the current FO & HC issue. We are talking about one mid round pick that had it been selected then this storm in a teacup would not be here. It seems to me that because the 2008 draft did not contain a 20% chance mid-round OL prospect then all of the sins of the past are dumped upon the FO & HC.

 

This is ridiculous. The current regime has shown patients in their first draft.....paying dividends by not squandering a 1st rounder on LT when we had a probowler in the making(Peters). They then re-sign Peters and bring in 2 good FAs. At what point has the current regime shown that they are not aware of the OL issues? Since they have been astute & on the ball so far, why is there absolutely no trust in them that they just may have some idea of the talent that we have.....as well as potential backup talent which may be gotten via FA(for depth purposes)?

[BillsVet]

I totally agree that we have not spent enough resources in the past on the OL but I just don't understand why now....at this point in time.....it has become a huge bash the current FO & HC issue. We are talking about one mid round pick that had it been selected then this storm in a teacup would not be here. It seems to me that because the 2008 draft did not contain a 20% chance mid-round OL prospect then all of the sins of the past are dumped upon the FO & HC.

 

This is ridiculous. The current regime has shown patients in their first draft.....paying dividends by not squandering a 1st rounder on LT when we had a probowler in the making(Peters). They then re-sign Peters and bring in 2 good FAs. At what point has the current regime shown that they are not aware of the OL issues? Since they have been astute & on the ball so far, why is there absolutely no trust in them that they just may have some idea of the talent that we have.....as well as potential backup talent which may be gotten via FA(for depth purposes)?

 

Dibs, I think it'd have been ridiculous to go with Branden Albert, Jeff Otah, Chris Williams, et al in the first. On that I can agree. I can also see the need to go WR and DE in the 2nd and 3rd. The Bills generally have a need in the 1st and 2nd, and they use those rounds to fill needs. They did it in 06, 07, and now in 08.

 

In the fourth, it sounded like their draft board wasn't stressing OL. There was talk that had Martin Rucker or Lowery (who went to NYJ) been available, they'd have selected one of them. That's speculation, but decent OL were available.

 

I will also agree that you cannot bash a draft just days afterward for the difference in opinion over a 4th or 5th round pick.

 

With that in mind, I don't understand how, in two consecutive years, the Bills have drafted the same position in the first four rounds. Last year Lynch and Wright went 1st and 4th. This year, same with McKelvin and Corner.

[Dr. K]

I totally agree that we have not spent enough resources in the past on the OL but I just don't understand why now....at this point in time.....it has become a huge bash the current FO & HC issue. We are talking about one mid round pick that had it been selected then this storm in a teacup would not be here. It seems to me that because the 2008 draft did not contain a 20% chance mid-round OL prospect then all of the sins of the past are dumped upon the FO & HC.

 

This is ridiculous. The current regime has shown patients in their first draft.....paying dividends by not squandering a 1st rounder on LT when we had a probowler in the making(Peters). They then re-sign Peters and bring in 2 good FAs. At what point has the current regime shown that they are not aware of the OL issues? Since they have been astute & on the ball so far, why is there absolutely no trust in them that they just may have some idea of the talent that we have.....as well as potential backup talent which may be gotten via FA(for depth purposes)?

 

Well said. Some people here will not be happy unless they run the draft room themselves.

[nucci]

Tell me when DB's can pass protect for a QB in the pocket. Tell me when they run block to give your RB a chance to get more than 4 ypc. Please.

 

San Francisco paid a king's ransom for their secondary (Clements, Michael Lewis, et al) and still their team is poor. Part of it is related to QB play, and part is due to a lackluster OL they've only recently began to address.

 

My reasoning for DJ being the deciding factor in picks? How about he's a former NFL DB? How about Day 1 in 2006? With extreme weaknesses on OL and DL, they take 3 DB's in their first 4 picks. Predominantly in rounds 1-3, Buffalo's taken a host of defensive players. Think that's not related to the HC? I do. Especially considering that 6 of their 9 picks in rounds 1-3 the past three drafts have been defenders. And that's considering they already had Schobel, Kelsay, McGee, Crowell, and signed Stround, Mitchell, S. Johnson, and Tripplett. Yes, DJ is the decider at OBD on draft day.

So by your reasoning, we need a former O-Linemen as HC?

[eball]

I totally agree that we have not spent enough resources in the past on the OL but I just don't understand why now....at this point in time.....it has become a huge bash the current FO & HC issue. We are talking about one mid round pick that had it been selected then this storm in a teacup would not be here. It seems to me that because the 2008 draft did not contain a 20% chance mid-round OL prospect then all of the sins of the past are dumped upon the FO & HC.

 

This is ridiculous. The current regime has shown patients in their first draft.....paying dividends by not squandering a 1st rounder on LT when we had a probowler in the making(Peters). They then re-sign Peters and bring in 2 good FAs. At what point has the current regime shown that they are not aware of the OL issues? Since they have been astute & on the ball so far, why is there absolutely no trust in them that they just may have some idea of the talent that we have.....as well as potential backup talent which may be gotten via FA(for depth purposes)?

Ding Ding Ding!!!! We have a winner!!!

[eball]

My reasoning for DJ being the deciding factor in picks? How about he's a former NFL DB? How about Day 1 in 2006? With extreme weaknesses on OL and DL, they take 3 DB's in their first 4 picks. Predominantly in rounds 1-3, Buffalo's taken a host of defensive players. Think that's not related to the HC? I do. Especially considering that 6 of their 9 picks in rounds 1-3 the past three drafts have been defenders. And that's considering they already had Schobel, Kelsay, McGee, Crowell, and signed Stround, Mitchell, S. Johnson, and Tripplett. Yes, DJ is the decider at OBD on draft day.

2006? You mean when Buffalo had Joe Bag-o-Donuts ready to play both safety positions?

 

Spending 2/3 of early round picks on defense, for a team with a crappy defense, is hardly provocative. The last time I checked, most coaches, GMs, and player personnel guys would tell you it all begins with a competent defense. There's even a phrase...can't quite think of the exact quote...but it's something about championships and defense.

 

You and others of your ilk need to stop blaming Jauron for the sins of Donahoe (and Butler before him). In three off-seasons the Bills' roster has been completely re-vamped across the board -- and there's a GOOD YOUNG OL in place.

 

Depth is a luxury afforded to teams with strong overall rosters...the Bills are on their way to achieving that status, thanks in large part to the drafting and FA strategy of Levy, Modrak, Jauron, and Brandon.

[OCinBuffalo]

Here's another concept: if you buy into the fact that the current OL is above-average (I do), you spend mid-round picks on other areas of glaring need (such as TE and ST), and then bring in some developmental OL prospects to build depth. I'd almost expect for both Bell and Felton to make the PS; maybe one of them will impress enough to knock Preston off the roster.

 

Bottom line: there is not "one" draft or FA strategy that must be followed each year. It's a fluid process that changes as the team needs change. This year the Bills didn't "need" to draft OL as a high priority because they had to find instant contributions at other areas (CB, WR, ST). Would it be "nice" to have high quality backups at all of the OL positions? Hell, yes! But that's a luxury when your team has weaknesses in other areas that need to be addressed.

 

This is the reality that everyone has to come to terms with. With FA being what it is now, this is how you have to build your team. You pray that you get good guys who are willing to take a lesser paycheck in order to stay on the team/in the area, and you hope that you win enough for them to want to do that. But, as long as there are retard owners like Dan Snyder/Jerry Jones throwing crazy money and/or draft picks around, you can't hope to keep even 30% of your players.

 

Drafting an O lineman high is no guarantee that he will stay on the team, be any good, or not demand a new contract after 2 years, any more than any other position. So it really doesn't matter, and all of this angst about always drafting O line, in today's game, is really a waste of time.

 

I will say that we need a center next year in the draft, and if there is a good one at pick #32, then I say we get him.

[stuckincincy]

You and others of your ilk need to stop blaming Jauron for the sins of Donahoe (and Butler before him). In three off-seasons the Bills' roster has been completely re-vamped across the board -- and there's a GOOD YOUNG OL in place.

 

Fine.

 

Go back year and compare them to another 7 -9 team. CIN. Then lose RG Walker for 9 games. Lose C Fowler for 4. Lose LT Peters for 1 game outright, and play him 10 snaps or so for 3 other games.

 

Do the Bills end up 7 - 9? Would they fall from thier 3rd least pass attempts, to the bottom? Would Edwards have been planted head first into the turf despite the dearth of long pass plays?

 

From what I read here on TSW, nobody is claiming that the current roster backups are going to come in and mow down linebackers and DLs.

 

It's a rough sport - you have to plan for injuries. One can certainly heap bricks on CIN, but not for not stocking the OL bench just in case.

 

The Bills are on OL thin ice...

[eball]

Stuck, you're missing the point. OL depth is a luxury. You're using the Bungles as an example, and despite having some quality OL depth they STILL FINISHED 7-9 because the team was weak in other areas -- most notably on defense!

 

Build a strong all-around team, and then look for depth.

[BillsVet]

The Bills are on OL thin ice...

 

I think that's all some are saying in this thread. IMO, most fans like the 07 and 08 drafts on the surface. The one detail which has been overlooked is not drafting OL, with no OL picked before round 5 in three straight drafts.

[Bill from NYC]

I think that's all some are saying in this thread. IMO, most fans like the 07 and 08 drafts on the surface. The one detail which has been overlooked is not drafting OL, with no OL picked before round 5 in three straight drafts.

Actually, I think the 07 draft was a great one, to the point that I was shocked.

[OCinBuffalo]

I think that's all some are saying in this thread. IMO, most fans like the 07 and 08 drafts on the surface. The one detail which has been overlooked is not drafting OL, with no OL picked before round 5 in three straight drafts.

On the surface, no O line before round 5 looks/sounds alarming. However, consider the fact that for the last 3 drafts, there has been a huge run on O line in rounds 1 and 2. When it's our turn to pick in round 3, and you're looking at the 15th best tackle, or the 10th best guard, it's kinda hard not to pick the 3rd best QB(Edwards) if he is still there.

 

Edit: Not saying Edwards is worse than anybody, just talking about his draft grade at the time.

[Lurker]

I made the same argument then, I make now.

 

You don;t waste #4 money on a RT, no matter how quick his feet- especailly when he is overweight and has a motivation problem.

 

I guess McKinney playing "reasonably well" at LT is a whole let better than "out of the league"

You realize that Williams played RT because he had a left-handed QB at Texas, right? Top flight RT prospects with good feet are transistioned to the left side quite regularly in the NFL (we have our own case in point in Peters). And his 350 lbs playing weight wasn't fat, he was a huge man who had no problem carrying it.

 

IMO, MWs motivation 'problem' as a prospect was no different than a lot of high round picks that end up having successful careers. Namely, that he didn't play with a mean streak. Most guys develop one in the NFL...Williams didn't. Mckinnie had the same knock coming out of Miami, BTW.

 

There's no way your crystal ball was the only one that worked among talent evaluators and draft watchers in 2002...hindsight makes us all genuises.

[BillsVet]

On the surface, no O line before round 5 looks/sounds alarming. However, consider the fact that for the last 3 drafts, there has been a huge run on O line in rounds 1 and 2. When it's our turn to pick in round 3, and you're looking at the 15th best tackle, or the 10th best guard, it's kinda hard not to pick the 3rd best QB(Edwards) if he is still there.

 

Edit: Not saying Edwards is worse than anybody, just talking about his draft grade at the time.

 

Yeah, if it was between an Edwards or the 10th rated guard, no question you've got to go with Edwards. In a league where perhaps 1/3 of the teams have a decent QB, that's more than acceptable.

 

We can sit here all day and go back and forth over what to take in the mid rounds, but the team has made their decision on OL. Hopefully there aren't any catastrophic injuries this season, but that's a risk in and of itself. It's been said before here many times that if you think you've got a franchise QB, find the players to surround him with. That goes not only for skill positions, but also in the trenches as well.

[stuckincincy]

Stuck, you're missing the point. OL depth is a luxury. You're using the Bungles as an example, and despite having some quality OL depth they STILL FINISHED 7-9 because the team was weak in other areas -- most notably on defense!

 

Build a strong all-around team, and then look for depth.

 

I agree...and I for one would have voted against the B'gals rapacious stadium deal if I lived in Hamilton County at the time.

 

I have problems with their management, and certainly their coaching staff. But they have been absolutely savaged by significant injuries, 2 years in a row...

 

I'm no fan of Lewis. He has poor game day sense, can't tell time, and is smarmy and duplicitous to the press and fans.

 

But the injuries have been heavy, much moreso than BUF:

 

- '03 3rd rounder WR Kelley Washington - missed the better part of 2 seasons with hamstring injuries. Since acquired by NE*

 

- '03 4th rounder CB Dennis Weathersby - car crash, never played.

 

'- 04 1st rounder RB Chris Perry - about one season's worth of games over 4 years.

- '05 1st rounder DE David Pollack breaks his neck in game #2 of 2006. Also in that game, C Rich Braham tears up knee; never plays again.

 

- '07 2nd rounder RB Kenny Irons tears up knee in the 2nd game of pre-season. Out for the year, doubtful for 2008.

 

In 2006, CIN lost these games from these starters:

 

DE David Pollack - 14 games.

C Rich Braham - 14 games

LT Levi Jones - 10 games.

LB Brian Simmons - 5 games.

CB Delthea O'Neal - 4 games.

SS Dexter Jackson - 4 games.

LB Rashad Jeanty - 4 games.

RG Bobbie Williams - 3 games.

WR T.J. Houshmanzadeh - 2 games.

 

In 2007, starters missing games:

 

MLB Ahmad Brooks - 14 games

RT Willie Anderson - 9 games.

LB Rashad Jeanty - 6 games.

RB Rudi Johnson - 5 games.

C Eric Ghiaciuc - 4 games.

S Madieu Williams - 3 games.

S Dexter Jackson - 2 games.

LT Levi Jones - 1 game plus 3 starts - spot duty.

 

That's a sh*tload of games lost, by starters, over a two-year stretch...

 

The injuries started again in the pre-season in '07. They played 3 pre-season games with an amazing 20 players short.

 

Their LB corps was wiped out for 2 seasons - recall that in the CIN - BUF game this past season, the starting OLBs for CIN were DE Robt. Geathers, and rookie SS Chidi Ndukwe. Landon Johnson played MLB, and the only LB back-ups on the roster were street FA Dhani Jones and NYJ cast-off Anthony Schlegal.

 

Much as I dislike Lewis, he has never publicly blamed injuries...

[OCinBuffalo]

Yeah, if it was between an Edwards or the 10th rated guard, no question you've got to go with Edwards. In a league where perhaps 1/3 of the teams have a decent QB, that's more than acceptable.

 

We can sit here all day and go back and forth over what to take in the mid rounds, but the team has made their decision on OL. Hopefully there aren't any catastrophic injuries this season, but that's a risk in and of itself. It's been said before here many times that if you think you've got a franchise QB, find the players to surround him with. That goes not only for skill positions, but also in the trenches as well.

My thing is this: if they think they have their O line settled, then I want them to leave it alone and let the guys play together. I don't want them to keep moving new guys in every year, maybe one at the most. They have to get used to each other and learn how to play with one another. I don't mind depth, but I don't want our O line treated like a fantasy football team. O line is more of a team thing than any other position and constant disruption isn't going to get us anywhere.

[eball]

My thing is this: if they think they have their O line settled, then I want them to leave it alone and let the guys play together. I don't want them to keep moving new guys in every year, maybe one at the most. They have to get used to each other and learn how to play with one another. I don't mind depth, but I don't want our O line treated like a fantasy football team. O line is more of a team thing than any other position and constant disruption isn't going to get us anywhere.

No other unit on a football team relies so heavily upon each player knowing not only his own job, but the tendencies and proficiencies of the guy next to him.