Lurker Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 Mike Williams was a stupid pick at #4. You don't spend huge money on a fat RT when a bonafide LT who is rated just as high is sitting there as well. Again, revisionist history. There were plenty of stories about Big Mike's light footedness...to the point of emphasizing his dancing prowess (aspects of this article are hillarious/painful in hindsight). McKinnie had his share of pros and cons, including questions about his strength and toughness. On the whole, the entire 2002 draft class has turned out to be underwheming...
Lurker Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 case in point is the Colts who took 3 centers in the mid-rounds. We have a liability at starting C and nobody in the pipeline and we totally ignore the position. The Bills ability to draft OL left with Polian. I won't argue that...
Dan Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 case in point is the Colts who took 3 centers in the mid-rounds. We have a liability at starting C and nobody in the pipeline and we totally ignore the position. The Bills ability to draft OL left with Polian. The Colts have one of the Best Qbs ever; a solid Receiving corps, TE, RBs, Secondary, D-Line. So, yes, they had a different draft strategy. But that's the point. And remind me again, why does it matter if we pay through the nose for OL help via free agency and draft CBs or draft OL and pay through the nose for CBs? Its six in one hand, half a dozen in the other. The current FO thought they could get FA linemen better than they could draft them. Given the past draft record, maybe they know their college line scouts suck. I don't know. But we got a decent line out of this FO, so why are we complaining about how they got it?
eball Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 While DJ's had his run of draft day, Buffalo's spent four late picks (out of 26 total selections) on OL in three drafts. That's practically nothing. Pennington and Merz were cut, Bell is a project, and Butler starts because Whittle and Preston were all the competition he had last year in camp. That's because the Bills needed an influx of talent at SO MANY POSITIONS. How many times do we need to go over this? Donahoe left the cupboard bare -- not just on OL, but throughout the roster. Butler, by the way, is no slouch and pretty highly regarded. Any real fan knows that using free agency liberally is a penalty for drafting poorly. The Bills under Donahoe didn't draft decent OL and went with bargain basement types. In 2006-07, the Buffalo was forced to pay through the nose for free agent OL (Dockery, Walker, and Fowler) and somehow that negates having to use a first day pick for an OL? Wouldn't it be better to have options on OL in case of injury as opposed to options at CB in a C2 defense? Spare me the "real fan" b.s. Free agency is a way of bringing in proven talent, as opposed to taking a chance on somebody you "hope" performs well based upon what he did in college. There are good and bad FA signings, just as there are good and bad draft picks. A sound strategy includes BOTH FA and the draft to build a team. A year ago the Bills HAD NO CHOICE but to buy their OL because the Donahoe administration completely ignored it (and swung and missed with Williams). Was it unwise for them to do so? Hell no it wasn't. You and others keep insisting the Bills should be spending early draft picks on the OL when they STILL NEED TO ADDRESS OTHER WEAKNESSES. Once the team is solid overall, depth can be sought.
Dibs Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 Here's a novel concept: rather than draft projects, how about spend mid-round draft picks on offensive linemen who have started and been successful at major college programs and whose skills translate directly to the NFL? That way, we can avoid having to plug gaping holes with overpriced free agents... can't expect Jason Peters every single time! You're just making this up as you go along..... What do we call mid round? For the sake of discussion I'm going with rounds 4 & 5 since 1-3 are early and 6 & 7 obviously late. 4th & 5th rounders(2000-2005).....bold denotes those whose skills translated directly to the NFL 3 out of 25(12%) 2000 Michael Thompson Michael Moore Matt Johnson Richard Mercier 2001 Bill Ferrerio Floyd Womack Victor Leyva Matt Lehr Russ Hochstein 2002 Martin Bibla Travis Scott Edward Ta'amu Jonathan Goodwin 2003 Montrae Holland - This guy has done OK....injury prone journeyman Ben Sobieski David Diehl Sean Mahan - starter after 3 years 2004 Trey Darilek Jacob Bell Jeb Terry 2005 Dan Buenning - started rookie season....didn't play a down last year Elton Brown Dylan Gandy Claude Terrell Scott Young
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 While DJ's had his run of draft day, Buffalo's spent four late picks (out of 26 total selections) on OL in three drafts. I must have missed it when we fired Modrak...
Dawgg Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 I will address 2005, as I don't have the time to look at every single year. I know you love to regurgitate lists of past transactions and picks to prove your point, but you can't just exclude a whole bunch of significant data points!!! 2005Dan Buenning - started rookie season....didn't play a down last year Elton Brown Dylan Gandy Claude Terrell Scott Young Dylan Gandy has a number of starts for the Colts, who have a very good offensive line. He has also started and performed well in playoff games. You fail to mention David Stewart, taken by the Titans in the 4th round out of Mississippi State, who has been a fixture at right tackle, received a first-round tender and is about to be extended by the team. You also conveniently leave out Jason Brown, a fixture at guard for the Ravens, also taken in the 4th round. He was voted to Sports Illustrated’s All-Pro team and is one of the best young guards in the NFL. Todd Herremans was drafted as a tackle in the 4th round out of Saginaw Valley but started every game the past 2 years for the Eagles as guard, including 2 playoff games. You leave him out as well.
Pirate Angel Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 The probelm with your plan is the Bills just don't ever feel compelled to make the OL a priority in the draft. and the one year they spend a 1st round pick, they draft a fat, unmotivated slob who has never played LT and pass up a bonafide LT from a major college program. The ability to find and develop OL is systemic to the the Bills organziation. Although they are good at finding CBs, they have been generally horrible (except for Peters) over the last 10 years of recognizing OL talent - either in the draft or free agency. Even with Peters, they did not know what they had and ended up cutting him before bringing him back later. anybody would have wiffed on williams, the guy was a freak in college, but in the same offseason we did nab a franchise left tackle in Jason Peters
Dibs Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 I will address 2005, as I don't have the time to look at every single year. I know you love to regurgitate lists of past transactions and picks to prove your point, but you can't just exclude a whole bunch of significant data points!!! Dylan Gandy has a number of starts for the Colts, who have a very good offensive line. He has also started and performed well in playoff games. You fail to mention David Stewart, taken by the Titans in the 4th round out of Mississippi State, who has been a fixture at right tackle, received a first-round tender and is about to be extended by the team. You also conveniently leave out Jason Brown, a fixture at guard for the Ravens, also taken in the 4th round. He was voted to Sports Illustrated’s All-Pro team and is one of the best young guards in the NFL. Todd Herremans was drafted as a tackle in the 4th round out of Saginaw Valley but started every game the past 2 years for the Eagles as guard, including 2 playoff games. You leave him out as well. Uggg....oops.....I started the list looking at the OGs......and by the time I finished them I forgot I hadn't added the OTs & Cs. Sincerest apologies. Firstly, I saw no point in finding the odds of obtaining a backup OLman. We have a top backup C starting at the moment.....also at worst a top backup OG starting. We need a better starter at C(& maybe RG)....not backups for them. At OT we have good starters so I wasn't actually too interested in the OTs anyway. Who knows how good the incumbent backup OTs are....management seem content to stay with them......& I tend to trust Bill about his assessment on Chambers in that he did a fine job last season. Anyway....Let's try again.....there may be a better percentage this time..... (I figure some players possibly should be highlighted.....but some who start due to no talent shouldn't.....this I guess will roughly even out) OGs....3 out of 25(12%) OCs....5 out of 16(31%) OTs....6 out of 32(19%) Total....14 out of (19%) Honestly, this is probably a decent percentage for 4th/5th round picks.....a 1 in 5 chance of getting a starter. That is my point BTW......that for some reason the sky is falling because we didn't draft an OLman in the 4th or 5th rounds. At some point one just has to assume that the coaches are happy with the backup talent level......or were willing to take the injuries risk due to better prospects at other positions when they were picking. Either way I don't understand all of this discourse over a mid-round draft pick. 4th & 5th rounders(2000-2005).....bold denotes those whose skills translated directly to the NFL Guards 2000 Michael Thompson Michael Moore Matt Johnson Richard Mercier 2001 Bill Ferrerio Floyd Womack Victor Leyva Matt Lehr Russ Hochstein 2002 Martin Bibla Travis Scott Edward Ta'amu Jonathan Goodwin 2003 Montrae Holland - This guy has done OK....injury prone journeyman Ben Sobieski David Diehl Sean Mahan - starter after 3 years 2004 Trey Darilek Jacob Bell Jeb Terry 2005 Dan Buenning - started rookie season....didn't play a down last year Elton Brown Dylan Gandy Claude Terrell Scott Young Centers 2000 2001 Roberto Garza - starter after 4 years Ben Hamilton Chukky Okabi 2002 Scott Peters 2003 Austin King Ryan Pontbriand Ben Claxton Dan Koppen 2004 Alex Stepanovich - started as rookie but....injury prone(?) Eric Ghiaciuc Duke Preston Jason Brown Junius Coston Drew Hodgdon Robert Hunt Geoff Hangartner Tackles 2000 Kaulana Noa Cooper Carlisle - starter after 6 years Joey Chustz Greg Robinson-Randall Tutan Reyes 2001 Kenyatta Jones Mathias Nkwent Ryan Diem Elliot Silvers Bernard Robertson Marques Sullivan Shawn Draper 2002 Matt Hill 2003 Brett Williams Steve Sciullo Lance Nimmo Jordan Black Tony Pashos - starter after 4 years 2004 Nat Dorsey Stacy Andrews - starter after 4 years Adrian Jones Jake Scott Mark Wilson Sean Bubin 2005 Ray Willis David Stewart Todd Herremans Daniel Loper Adam Kieft Anthony Alabi Frank Omiyale Wesley Britt
Dr. K Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 Mike Williams was a stupid pick at #4. You don't spend huge money on a fat RT when a bonafide LT who is rated just as high is sitting there as well. I questioned the pick of a 375-pound RT at the time. Did you? The overwhelming response was "this guy's a sure fire success." The "bona fide" LT you talk about (on the Vikings?) did not take the league by storm. I guess he's played reasonably well, but he's no Orlando Pace.
obie_wan Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 I questioned the pick of a 375-pound RT at the time. Did you? The overwhelming response was "this guy's a sure fire success." The "bona fide" LT you talk about (on the Vikings?) did not take the league by storm. I guess he's played reasonably well, but he's no Orlando Pace. I made the same argument then, I make now. You don;t waste #4 money on a RT, no matter how quick his feet- especailly when he is overweight and has a motivation problem. I guess McKinney playing "reasonably well" at LT is a whole let better than "out of the league"
BillsVet Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 That's because the Bills needed an influx of talent at SO MANY POSITIONS. How many times do we need to go over this? Donahoe left the cupboard bare -- not just on OL, but throughout the roster. Butler, by the way, is no slouch and pretty highly regarded. Spare me the "real fan" b.s. Free agency is a way of bringing in proven talent, as opposed to taking a chance on somebody you "hope" performs well based upon what he did in college. There are good and bad FA signings, just as there are good and bad draft picks. A sound strategy includes BOTH FA and the draft to build a team. A year ago the Bills HAD NO CHOICE but to buy their OL because the Donahoe administration completely ignored it (and swung and missed with Williams). Was it unwise for them to do so? Hell no it wasn't. You and others keep insisting the Bills should be spending early draft picks on the OL when they STILL NEED TO ADDRESS OTHER WEAKNESSES. Once the team is solid overall, depth can be sought. After two complete drafts, two free agency periods, and two seasons worth of games, the OLdepth still isn't a priority? When you've got Kirk Chambers, a street free agent, Duke Preston, who needs no introduction, and Whittle, who's 33 and missed most of last season, it better be. Liberally using FA is the penalty for drafting poorly. All teams with long term success draft well. Case in point: NE, IND, SD, NYG, GB, perhaps JAC, PHI, and PIT. As for the OL, no one is saying that it's required to use a first each year there. However, as Dawgg pointed out in an earlier post, finding good OG's is possible in the mid-rounds. This team eschews the OL, because they believe they've got solid starters and backups. Thing is, they don't. Not at least the backups. The priorities on a football team will always be: 1. QB 2. OL (specifically at LT) 3. DL (specifically a pass rushers) Once those pieces are in place, it's much easier to win. DJ and Marv lucked into Jason Peters just as Donahoe did. If OL depth is not a weakness, then DB's aren't either. OL almost always trumps a defensive secondary in importance to the team. Then again, not to this HC. And if people think Modrak makes the final decision on draft day, I think it's safe to now say he doesn't. Modrak prepares everyone for the draft, and Jauron, because his head is in the noose, is getting to make the picks. How else can you describe 7 DB's taken in 3 years?
Bill from NYC Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 After two complete drafts, two free agency periods, and two seasons worth of games, the OLdepth still isn't a priority? When you've got Kirk Chambers, a street free agent, Duke Preston, who needs no introduction, and Whittle, who's 33 and missed most of last season, it better be. Liberally using FA is the penalty for drafting poorly. All teams with long term success draft well. Case in point: NE, IND, SD, NYG, GB, perhaps JAC, PHI, and PIT. As for the OL, no one is saying that it's required to use a first each year there. However, as Dawgg pointed out in an earlier post, finding good OG's is possible in the mid-rounds. This team eschews the OL, because they believe they've got solid starters and backups. Thing is, they don't. Not at least the backups. The priorities on a football team will always be: 1. QB 2. OL (specifically at LT) 3. DL (specifically a pass rushers) Once those pieces are in place, it's much easier to win. DJ and Marv lucked into Jason Peters just as Donahoe did. If OL depth is not a weakness, then DB's aren't either. OL almost always trumps a defensive secondary in importance to the team. Then again, not to this HC. And if people think Modrak makes the final decision on draft day, I think it's safe to now say he doesn't. Modrak prepares everyone for the draft, and Jauron, because his head is in the noose, is getting to make the picks. How else can you describe 7 DB's taken in 3 years? Bravo!
Dibs Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 ......However, as Dawgg pointed out in an earlier post, finding good OG's is possible in the mid-rounds..... It's possible......just as it's possible to find good players of any position in the mid-rounds.....just not likely. 20% chance.....that's the odds(using 2000-2005 drafts). To put forward after the 2008 draft that it was bungled because no OLman was drafted in the mid-rounds is ridiculous. Let's say we drafted an OG in the 4th......whoopee....we have a 1 in 5 chance that that player will develop into a better player than Fowler.
Lurker Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 I made the same argument then, I make now. You don;t waste #4 money on a RT, no matter how quick his feet- especailly when he is overweight and has a motivation problem. How come you're not working in the NFL? Your judgement sure was better than 90% of the folks who get paid to evaluate talent.
eball Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 DJ and Marv lucked into Jason Peters just as Donahoe did. If OL depth is not a weakness, then DB's aren't either. OL almost always trumps a defensive secondary in importance to the team. Then again, not to this HC. You say this as if it's a bad thing. Didn't New England* "luck" into Tom Brady? What's your point? It's great that Peters turned into the LT he is, because it allowed the Bills to focus on other areas. Your second sentence is idiotic. The Bills drafted for a STARTING corner; if they needed STARTERS on the OL I'd be looking for them to draft there. Believe it or not, OL DEPTH falls below DB STARTERS in priority. And if people think Modrak makes the final decision on draft day, I think it's safe to now say he doesn't. Modrak prepares everyone for the draft, and Jauron, because his head is in the noose, is getting to make the picks. How else can you describe 7 DB's taken in 3 years? You "think" it's safe to say? Got a hidden microphone at OBD, do ya? More ridiculousness. How do I describe 7 DBs in 3 years? Competition. Three of them will be starting on opening day (Whitner, McKelvin, Simpson). Another will likely be the nickel (Corner). That's pretty good drafting.
stuckincincy Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 (edited) 22 of 32 teams drafted an OL, 4th round or higher, this year... http://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker#tab:dt-by-position|pos-ol Edited May 7, 2008 by stuckincincy
Bill from NYC Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 22 of 32 teams drafted an OL, 4th round or higher, this year... That's because we had all the dbs.
stuckincincy Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 That's because we had all the dbs. Yep...we "Cornered" the market.
Rockinon Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 Man, who cares about 2000-2005. This is 2008 and what is important now is what we intend to do with what we have now for talent.
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