whitner

[eball]

not to wory - they picked up an undrafted free agent OG AND a 7th round project.

 

There are not enough roster spots for all of this OL talent.

The number of non-OL roster spots occupied by poor talent plays into the decision-making process as well, does it not?

[Ramius]

The number of non-OL roster spots occupied by poor talent plays into the decision-making process as well, does it not?

 

remember, its not about the talent we draft, just the positions we draft. who cares if we draft the next robert gallery or mike williams? the fact that matters is that we spent picks on the OL.

 

Drafting talented non-line players doesnt fly too well 'round these parts.

[colin]

1. McKelvin is probably the pick they could have most easily done without in terms of meeting team needs, but once this player whom the Bills viewed as worthy of a top 10 pick slipped to #11, they were going to pick him.

 

 

with NE in our division and our horrible pass d last year you think the best corner in the draft doesn't fit a need.

 

But ... oh wait ... you said corners don't help pass D.

 

i forgot, the drugs.

 

well good luck with that!

[julian]

Yes...but like you say... looking forward to 2 years together. What happens if they lose OL starts more in line with the usual for most clubs? what's your confidence level in the OL bench?

 

They correctly nursed Edwards - not a bunch of time-consuming deep pass patterns. AFAIK.

im not disagreeing that this team is a jason peters injury away from being in trouble...Having a jason peters at LT is awsome and i dare say he would start for atleast 25 other teams. you cant have every base covered, its just not gonna happen . If we (GOD FORBID) need the back up to come in its gonna be a gigantic dropoff no matter who we drafted or brought in. the talent level of a jason peters cant be matched with your back up, if hes hurt were in trouble just like almost every other team with a high end left tackle.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

the talent level of a jason peters cant be matched with your back up, if hes hurt were in trouble just like almost every other team with a high end left tackle.

Right...but the talent level of a Brad Butler or a Melvin Fowler or a Langston Walker can nearly be matched by a backup, so that there isn't much drop in performance in the case of an injury. Unfortunately, on this team, that isn't the case. Its definitely a concern.

[yall]

At G we have Fowler

 

I'm glad he can play guard, after seeing him play center...

[Dan]

For all posters claiming that we're in trouble because we didn't draft Oline depth players this year.... are you suggesting that we should be drafting 2nd string players for the Oline because Peters may get injured and not address obvious needs at the starting position in other areas of the team?

 

I want solid lines as much as the next guy. I really do. But let's be realistic here. We needed a big WR. We needed a TE. We needed a CB. We needed a DE/DT. Those are needs. Not well we kinda don't like the guy that's there (like Fowler). Now, yes we could have drafted a lineman instead of Oman, for example. But, I would guess the FO was going with BPA after a certain point and not just drafting for specific positions.

 

So taking Oman, as an example, could we use a OG over a RB. Absolutely. But, the FO (I'm guessing) decided the potential upside of Oman was greater than the potential upside of any linemen at that time. Can we argue that? Sure. It's speculation. So, look at the first 3 picks - CB, WR, and DE. I would argue those are all much higher need positions that a backup offensive linemen.

 

The current incarnation of the FO has done a pretty decent job of filling the holes on this team through FA and the draft. Provided all the players work out, we'll have our starting lineups set (for the most part) after this year. So, in 3 years, we'll have gone from a team with aging players and guys that couldn't wait to leave to a young team set for several years. At that point, I think we'll start seeing them draft more for depth at key positions. But, I would suggest that this year was just one year too soon.

 

Initially, I didn't like the CB pick in round one. But, in thinking about it, it seems obvious. Our starting Oline held up pretty well last year and we're returning all our starters. So, they should get better. Our secondary, however, was a mash unit and gave up every critical 3rd down pass they could. So, yes, maybe we should work to strengthen that unit.

 

And yes, if Peters goes down we're screwed. But, if we drafted a LT in round 2, wouldn't we still be screwed if a rookie came in to protect Trent's blind side?

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

And yes, if Peters goes down we're screwed. But, if we drafted a LT in round 2, wouldn't we still be screwed if a rookie came in to protect Trent's blind side?

Was Cleveland screwed last year with a rookie protecting Anderson's blind side?

 

Just playing :devil:s advocate. Your post is spot-on. There were other positions that needed to be addressed this year, but next year's offseason will be devoid of excuses...whether its free agency or the draft, we MUST bring in some depth/competition on the O-line.

[Dan]

Was Cleveland screwed last year with a rookie protecting Anderson's blind side?

 

Just playing :devil:s advocate. Your post is spot-on. There were other positions that needed to be addressed this year, but next year's offseason will be devoid of excuses...whether its free agency or the draft, we MUST bring in some depth/competition on the O-line.

Point made. Counter point - was there a tackle even close to Thomas' ability in the draft in round 2?

 

So, yes, if we had passed on Joe Thomas in round 2 I would think it a mistake.

 

Agreed. We need to work on depth on the Oline next year. But, we'll also need to work on depth at several positions, I'd think.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Point made. Counter point - was there a tackle even close to Thomas' ability in the draft in round 2?

 

So, yes, if we had passed on Joe Thomas in round 2 I would think it a mistake.

I hear ya. Just throwing it out there.

 

Agreed. We need to work on depth on the Oline next year. But, we'll also need to work on depth at several positions, I'd think.

In terms of depth, I think offensive line comes first, though. We may need a new linebacker, as Crowell may walk. We may need a safety, depending on whether Ko sinks or swims. A new backup quarterback, most likely. Maybe an upgrade at tight end...perhaps one or two positions unexpectedly need attention.

 

After that, offensive line should be back in the limelight. We'll probably need three new reliable linemen: a quality center who can push Fowler, a quality guard who can push Butler, and a quality tackle who can backup both positions. I don't see ANY of those on this team now. I can't think of a unit thats even close to being as starved for reliable backups as this one. The guys brought in need to have game experience if they're free agents, and they need to be 4th-5th round or higher if they're draft picks.

 

I can completely understand why it didn't happen this year, but next year they'll begin the offseason with a pretty solid roster, and they'll have some flexibility for the first time since the new regime took over. Linemen get hurt in this league, and unfortunately, we're not at all prepared for it. This is something that screams for attention.

[obie_wan]

For all posters claiming that we're in trouble because we didn't draft Oline depth players this year.... are you suggesting that we should be drafting 2nd string players for the Oline because Peters may get injured and not address obvious needs at the starting position in other areas of the team?

 

I want solid lines as much as the next guy. I really do. But let's be realistic here. We needed a big WR. We needed a TE. We needed a CB. We needed a DE/DT. Those are needs. Not well we kinda don't like the guy that's there (like Fowler). Now, yes we could have drafted a lineman instead of Oman, for example. But, I would guess the FO was going with BPA after a certain point and not just drafting for specific positions.

 

So taking Oman, as an example, could we use a OG over a RB. Absolutely. But, the FO (I'm guessing) decided the potential upside of Oman was greater than the potential upside of any linemen at that time. Can we argue that? Sure. It's speculation. So, look at the first 3 picks - CB, WR, and DE. I would argue those are all much higher need positions that a backup offensive linemen.

 

The current incarnation of the FO has done a pretty decent job of filling the holes on this team through FA and the draft. Provided all the players work out, we'll have our starting lineups set (for the most part) after this year. So, in 3 years, we'll have gone from a team with aging players and guys that couldn't wait to leave to a young team set for several years. At that point, I think we'll start seeing them draft more for depth at key positions. But, I would suggest that this year was just one year too soon.

 

Initially, I didn't like the CB pick in round one. But, in thinking about it, it seems obvious. Our starting Oline held up pretty well last year and we're returning all our starters. So, they should get better. Our secondary, however, was a mash unit and gave up every critical 3rd down pass they could. So, yes, maybe we should work to strengthen that unit.

 

And yes, if Peters goes down we're screwed. But, if we drafted a LT in round 2, wouldn't we still be screwed if a rookie came in to protect Trent's blind side?

 

So who after McKelvin and maybe Hardy, which of the othr picks are not going to be backups in 2008??

 

Your argument has no foundation.

 

How does drafting backups at TE,FB,LB, etc take priority over finding a STARTING C and a future starter at OL that can backup at LT right now?

[Bill from NYC]

We may need a new linebacker, as Crowell may walk. We may need a safety, depending on whether Ko sinks or swims. A new backup quarterback, most likely. Maybe an upgrade at tight end...perhaps one or two positions unexpectedly need attention.

 

After that, offensive line should be back in the limelight.

 

Ouch!

 

The thing is Dan, these guys go early. In the first round alone, I think no less than 7 OTs went, and a Guard at #15. You listed 4 positions, allowed for one or two more, and then listed blocking.

Sorry, but this won't cut it, and this is the primary reason for the long term lack of wins.

 

Btw, I am far from sold on Simpson. He looked slow when I watched him. I truly hope to be wrong because if I am correct, say hello to another 1st round safety in 09. Jauron made his priorities clear. Is there one out there named Reggie Safety?

[Dibs]

So who after McKelvin and maybe Hardy, which of the othr picks are not going to be backups in 2008??

 

Your argument has no foundation.

 

How does drafting backups at TE,FB,LB, etc take priority over finding a STARTING C and a future starter at OL that can backup at LT right now?

20%

That's the odds(at best) of finding a starting OLman from the 4th/5th rounds!!!!

Why does everyone think that starters for the OL are easier to find than every other position?

 

Where do you find star LTs?

Apart from Peters......drafted in the top 7 of the draft.

Where do you find most solid starters at OG?

The 1st round.....Every 1st round OG in the past 15 years has had at least a solid starters career.

 

It's a reasonable argument to put forward that we should have drafted Albert instead of McKelvin(though not many are saying this if any).......it's a ridiculous argument to get your knickers in a twist over the fact that we didn't draft an OLman in the 4th-6th rounds.

 

I wonder......if we had drafted Jeremy Zuttah(only OL drafted within 23 picks of Ellis) instead of Chris Ellis, would everyone be all 'the sky is falling' because we didn't get a backup DE in the 3rd?

[Dibs]

Ouch!

 

The thing is Dan, these guys go early. In the first round alone, I think no less than 7 OTs went, and a Guard at #15. You listed 4 positions, allowed for one or two more, and then listed blocking.

Sorry, but this won't cut it, and this is the primary reason for the long term lack of wins.

 

Btw, I am far from sold on Simpson. He looked slow when I watched him. I truly hope to be wrong because if I am correct, say hello to another 1st round safety in 09. Jauron made his priorities clear. Is there one out there named Reggie Safety?

 

Your first point I think is spot on......except for 'the primary reason' bit which I'll address in another thread.

I'm surprised you are accepting all of this baloney about how important it was that we didn't use a 4th-6th draft pick on the OL....it dilutes your(long standing) point that the good OLmen typically are drafted in the 1st round. All that this recent talk of mid-round OL picks is doing is perhaps convincing people that drafting for the OL there is good enough. Drafting the OL in the mid-rounds gives as much chance as any position of finding a starter caliber player(around 20%).....and a tiny chance of finding a starter of good or better caliber.

 

Your second point is......well.....it's like a petulant child irrationally stamping their foot. Ignoring Whitner, DJ(& the FO) has shown that the most important areas in their eyes have been the DL & the OL. I've said before.....the only large contracts given out through FA signings, re-signings or trades by this current Bills regime(except for Mitchell) has been to either the DL or OL or ST.

Peters, Dockery, Walker, Schobel, Stroud, Johnson, Tripplett, Kelsay.....no DBs.....one LB.....no QBs.....no WRs(Parrish as probowl PR).....no RBs.....no TEs(though RR got decent money). This organization has invested heavily in the lines.

 

In regards to the draft.....starting backwards.....

2008....I would still prefer to have drafted Albert over McKelvin but like most(all?) I can see that the McKelvin pick was actually a good one. Hardy was a no-brainer.....and 3rd round Ellis.....all the good OLmen were gone, not a bad pick.

2007....You yourself are happy with that draft

2006....Leading into this draft, most wanted a LT. Obviously the new management wanted to see what we had on the OL & that paid off in spades with Peters becoming a pro-bowler. Whitner(your bugbear) was not only a pick for great need but also one of relative safety(pardon the pun). A very good solid player.....which is a good result(to those who look at things in perspective). McCargo was yet another Lineman for the team & Youboty(3rd rounder) was apparently a miss. This last part being very important......had he developed I'm certain that we would not have drafted Corner. The point being that it is more important to succeed when drafting.....not simply drafting a position of 'importance'(since to be a SB caliber team, you need solid/good players everywhere....and depth).

 

What about next year?

I'd love an OG in the 1st(assuming Butler doesn't shine). Why? Because of the success rate.

I'd hate.....absolutely hate for us to draft an OT in the 1st. Why? Apart from Peters should be a star for the next decade....unless we draft one in the top 7 spots we know there is little chance that we will get a star LT.....and a star LT is IMO the most valuable thing to have on a team apart from star QB.

1st round C? I haven't checked on the success rates for C but again I'd love for us to draft one.

 

We had the chance this year with Albert & let it pass. If one can accept that....and understand that this Bills FO has focused on the OL outside the draft....I for the life of me can see no reason why all the angst & venom about the situation.

[eball]

Ouch!

 

The thing is Dan, these guys go early. In the first round alone, I think no less than 7 OTs went, and a Guard at #15. You listed 4 positions, allowed for one or two more, and then listed blocking.

Sorry, but this won't cut it, and this is the primary reason for the long term lack of wins.

 

Btw, I am far from sold on Simpson. He looked slow when I watched him. I truly hope to be wrong because if I am correct, say hello to another 1st round safety in 09. Jauron made his priorities clear. Is there one out there named Reggie Safety?

What priorities are those? Do you have a link to specific quotes?

 

If the Bills need a starting safety, should they not draft one?

 

Should the Bills draft a "stud" LT in the first round when they already have one? Is that a wise use of resources when there are holes elsewhere?

 

I'm all for acquiring depth across the lines, but even the Bills of the early 90s weren't "deep" in OL talent. The current Bills line is good -- and young -- and I'm not at all disappointed the front office (Brandon, Modrak, Jauron -- NOT just Jauron) used the first three picks in this draft to acquire players who will likely see the field on opening day. Come to think of it, both 4th round picks will also likely be in the starting lineup in September as well -- on ST.

 

Keep banging that drum, though.

[Dan]

...

I can completely understand why it didn't happen this year, but next year they'll begin the offseason with a pretty solid roster, and they'll have some flexibility for the first time since the new regime took over. Linemen get hurt in this league, and unfortunately, we're not at all prepared for it. This is something that screams for attention.

I would very much agree with all that you posted. The Oline Depth is probably the weakest on the team, easily. And will have to be addressed. Only caveat being... the FO may decide to address the depth issue in FA - not the draft. Either way, I'm guessing it'll have to be addressed.

 

So who after McKelvin and maybe Hardy, which of the othr picks are not going to be backups in 2008??

 

Your argument has no foundation.

 

How does drafting backups at TE,FB,LB, etc take priority over finding a STARTING C and a future starter at OL that can backup at LT right now?

I agree. None of the later round guys will be starters. But, IMO, they were taking best player available approach at that point. And not addressing needs.

 

The thing is Dan, these guys go early. In the first round alone, I think no less than 7 OTs went, and a Guard at #15. You listed 4 positions, allowed for one or two more, and then listed blocking.

Sorry, but this won't cut it, and this is the primary reason for the long term lack of wins.

 

Btw, I am far from sold on Simpson. He looked slow when I watched him. I truly hope to be wrong because if I am correct, say hello to another 1st round safety in 09. Jauron made his priorities clear. Is there one out there named Reggie Safety?

Which is why I'd hope they'll draft OL earlier rather than later. But, when they weren't drafting them this year, that's when I could only conclude that the FO sees the deficiencies at CB and WR as bigger needs than OG or C. Next year.. hopefully is different. Hopefully, we don't have any glaring weaknesses on the team and we can draft 1 or 2 quality linemen to develop as backup and/or starters. But, you're right; there's a few players that may effect that. I think Ko is definitely a question mark seeing as how he's had little playing time. Of course, the TEs. So, if Ko is the weakest link and once again the Oline looked good throughout, yeah I could see draftign a safety first again. Not sure I agree either way, but I could see it.

 

Bottomline for me is what's the product on the field look like. Because there's often more than one way to get to your destination. I would suggest that the team is getting better. Although the record didn't show it last season, I think that was largely due to the number of injured players. I expect this year our wins to be greater that our losses. If that happens, I think we can conclude that the current plan is working. And the FO buys its self a little time and respect for putting the team together. If we have another middle of the pack 8-8 or worse year, then its definitely time to look critically at their building plan. But, overall, I think everyone has to agree that the team is better off now than 2.5 years ago - regardless of how we drafted or handled FAs. Could we be even better? Perhaps, but that's complete speculation.

 

I guess to say it shortly, it's just been ~2.5 years for this FO and HC. That's not quite long enough to see if they know what they're doing. Most regimes come in with a 3 year plan (or so it seems). I think we have to be patient for another season and see how their moves pan out. IMO, this is the first season that we can really even begin to talk about Whitner and the '05 guys abilities. So, I understand the consternations, but I just think we have to be careful that we're not judging this FO based on mistakes of the past FO.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Ouch!

 

The thing is Dan, these guys go early. In the first round alone, I think no less than 7 OTs went, and a Guard at #15. You listed 4 positions, allowed for one or two more, and then listed blocking.

Sorry, but this won't cut it, and this is the primary reason for the long term lack of wins.

 

Btw, I am far from sold on Simpson. He looked slow when I watched him. I truly hope to be wrong because if I am correct, say hello to another 1st round safety in 09. Jauron made his priorities clear. Is there one out there named Reggie Safety?

This cannot be true as Jauron has no input into the process. Never has. In fact, the only thing holding him back as a coach is his front offices that give him garbage talent.

 

Back to the other point, yes, this offensive line has no depth and is one injury away from becoming overly porous. It is also true that, outside of Peters, this line is not stocked with Pro Bowl talent across the board. Dockery is above average and the left side held it together last year, but as a unit their run blocking wasn't where it needs to be. They did well in pass pro and were helped with Edwards (and to a be consistent some degree of it was Losman, who did play a few games) getting the ball out quickly on those 5 yard and less patterns that Fairchild focused the offense around.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

This cannot be true as Jauron has no input into the process. Never has. In fact, the only thing holding him back as a coach is his front offices that give him garbage talent.

This act is already old as my nutsack. Nobody said he has no input, of course, merely that he isn't all alone in the war room making picks to his desire. I would tell you how bad the team was when this regime started, and how far they've come since then, but I'm sure its been explained to you before. Some people are only comfortable wallowing in pessimism.

[Ramius]

This cannot be true as Jauron has no input into the process. Never has. In fact, the only thing holding him back as a coach is his front offices that give him garbage talent.

 

Back to the other point, yes, this offensive line has no depth and is one injury away from becoming overly porous. It is also true that, outside of Peters, this line is not stocked with Pro Bowl talent across the board. Dockery is above average and the left side held it together last year, but as a unit their run blocking wasn't where it needs to be. They did well in pass pro and were helped with Edwards (and to a be consistent some degree of it was Losman, who did play a few games) getting the ball out quickly on those 5 yard and less patterns that Fairchild focused the offense around.

 

how many OLs league wide have pro-bowl talent across the board?

 

The vikings have a highyl regarded line, and have a number of "1st round picks" alogn the OL. And exactly how many playoff wins has that gotten them? Hell, how many playoff appearances has it gotten them? Perhaps theres a bit more to winning games that simply drafting a bunch of OLs.

[K-9]

...Btw, I am far from sold on Simpson. He looked slow when I watched him. I truly hope to be wrong because if I am correct, say hello to another 1st round safety in 09. Jauron made his priorities clear. Is there one out there named Reggie Safety?

 

When did you watch him because I had the same feeling watching him in the first half dozen games or so of '06 and thought he looked a LOT slower than he did in camp and pre-season. I thought his slowness was more a result of his inexperience as a rookie which often blocks a player's athleticism from showing. You know, the old 'think' before I 'react' type of deal. He played cautious it seemed. But I thought the last half of '06 he started thinking less and he looked a bit quicker. It's a damn shame he got hurt last year because I have the feeling he's gonna be back to early '06 form until he gets his feet wet again.

 

GO BILLS!!!