This Off-season

[obie_wan]

jesus dude. you and bill should start watching team sumo instead of football, you just want to watch fat guys slap bellies.

 

 

you guys B word about not getting a new back up LT with draft picks?!?!?! wtf?!?!?! the oline let up the fewest sacks in team history.

we let ne throw for 9TDs on us, but you want to improve our blocking?

 

how many stars do the giants have on their o line? zero, they are all scrubs. they won because ther are 17 other starters on the team and the oline isn't everything.

 

yes we have done a bad job drafting o line. all that matters is who is on your team, we have a stud LT (best in afc, pro bowler) a good RT and a very good LG. our young RG is decent too. thin at center, but otherwise we have a very good line.

 

saying we should have addressed back ups over our dbs or drafting corner is idiotic really is silly.

 

our corners were bad last year, we are upgrading. there's more to football that big fat guys.

 

yet with an all scrub secondary, the Bills still won 7 games.

 

If Peters goes down, they won't win half that many - and Trent's progress will be severely hindered.

 

Fewest sacks but worst in the league in 3rd and 4th down conversions.

 

The OL still has to prove it can pass block without keeping in 2 TEs and a back.

 

but ignoring the OL for teh last 10 years has worked well for the Bills - so why not continue with a winning strategy

[Gary M]

The OL still has to prove it can pass block without keeping in 2 TEs and a back.

 

And give the QB enough time to throw past the down marker, instead of dumping off all the time.

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

Long-time lurker, first-time poster.

 

First of all, not too many teams have an excellent backup LT, and it's usually game over if a starting LT goes down. Second of all, how many games did you see Kirk Chambers play? He came in for Jason Peters about a 1/3 of the way into the Giants game and surrendered 1 sack and no QB hurries to Umenyiora, who had 13 sacks on the season. Then he started the following weekend and went against Trent Cole, who had 12.5 sacks, and didn't give up a sack or QB hurry. Hardly a lot of playing time, I would say, but enough to say he wasn't a total basket case considering he didn't get undressed by 2 of the better RDE's in the game. Third of all, the Bills drafted Demetrius Bell to develop at LT. Sure it's not "the middle rounds," but the kid looks like a worthwhile developmental prospect and has more raw tools than you'd find in a mid-round LT.

Actually, I have all of the tapes of the games and so, today my son and I looked as much as we could at Mr. Chambers and I must say that Chambers looked okay on some plays but was mostly an innocent bystander. He is so unathletic it is pathetic. IMO, the best player on our roster suited for back up LT is Brad Butler. Unfortunately, he is at another position on the other side of the line. If Whittle can start at RG(and has anything left in the tank) it would be nice if Butler spent some time with technique in case he is needed at LT.

I am hoping you are right about Mr. Bell. Linemen with athletic skills, (like Peters) can do wonders for an offense.

[ganesh]

While there are other things that needed to be addressed, I felt those 6 were the most important for us to get to the next level. I'd like to commend our front office for a job well done in their 1st season in their respective roles. My offseason grade: B+

 

In retrospect, I should have included the QB situation in the mix. While I would be thrilled to have a "happy" JP as our backup, it doesnt look that thats gonna happen. Trents injury history is a major issue in MY mind, and we didnt do anything to improve our situation. Here's to hoping he can stay healthy.

 

 

I agree you cannot fix everything at the same time. This team looks much better than what it was when Marv inherited it. I hope they will continue to infuse youth into this team and keep it competitive. The one worry is we did not get much help for the OL. Granted we spent quite a bit of money last year, but what we need is those 4-5th round guards/centers. I would have been happy with at least one pick in that area for the OL.

[34-78-83]

Addressing the O-line in Free Agency is not equal to ignoring it.

 

There's a difference between what the Bills have done in the past couple years and the way they operated for the 5 or so years prior. I would have like to see an additional lineman drafted this year for depth too but holy crap this can get out of hand...

[obie_wan]

Addressing the O-line in Free Agency is not equal to ignoring it.

 

There's a difference between what the Bills have done in the past couple years and the way they operated for the 5 or so years prior. I would have like to see an additional lineman drafted this year for depth too but holy crap this can get out of hand...

 

out of hand??

 

it's not like they have 12 roster spots tied up with the OL.

 

The Bills have 4 NFL caliber OL on the roster with a marginal C.

 

They do not have an NFL calbier backup on the roster, especially one that can play LT effectively - which means not having to keep in 2 TEs and a back to cover up his shortcomings (which means Walker will get exposed on the other side)

 

The Bills were lucky last year that there were OL to overspend on.

 

With the increase in the cap, the ability to use free agency as a means to cover up for drafting ignorance will disappear. the Bills will be left with signing Bennie Anderson & Tuten Reyes quality players to plug holes

[34-78-83]

out of hand??

 

it's not like they have 12 roster spots tied up with the OL.

 

The Bills have 4 NFL caliber OL on the roster with a marginal C.

 

They do not have an NFL calbier backup on the roster, especially one that can play LT effectively - which means not having to keep in 2 TEs and a back to cover up his shortcomings (which means Walker will get exposed on the other side)

 

The Bills were lucky last year that there were OL to overspend on.

 

With the increase in the cap, the ability to use free agency as a means to cover up for drafting ignorance will disappear. the Bills will be left with signing Bennie Anderson & Tuten Reyes quality players to plug holes

 

Every team has a bunch of Bennie Anderson's and Tuten Reyes's filling their backup positions. There may be one or 2 lucky teams in the NFL that have both a very good starting LT and a good backup. Our guy last year in that position played better than you think, though not an adequate starter. What happens if Peters goes down? Were in bad shape. Just like the Rams were last year w/o Pace and the Ravens are even more pathetic on offense whenever Ogden gets hurt. The list goes on. I am one who really stresses the importance of an O-line to a team as well, but I think this talk is out of hand looking at the rest of the league and considering that there were multiple positions of need in the draft. Would I have been happy if we drafted Alrbert in the 1st instead of Mcelvin? Yes (one of the few I'm sure).... But he wasn't about to come in here and help out Peters . He would have worked his way in backing up RT and challenging for starting RG spot and maybe in 2 or 3 years develop into a quality starter. The Bills were behind the 8 ball due to the previous regime and had to catch up quick last year by getting younger FA's with playing experience to fill those needs. I would call Dockery and Peters more than "NFL caliber"... and Butler is improving steadily while Walker was a surprise with how well he played last year. If someone major goes down on just about any team, it is going to create a problem. Hence the "Out of hand" comment

[stuckincincy]

Every team has a bunch of Bennie Anderson's and Tuten Reyes's filling their backup positions. There may be one or 2 lucky teams in the NFL that have both a very good starting LT and a good backup. Our guy last year in that position played better than you think, though not an adequate starter. What happens if Peters goes down? Were in bad shape. Just like the Rams were last year w/o Pace and the Ravens are even more pathetic on offense whenever Ogden gets hurt. The list goes on. I am one who really stresses the importance of an O-line to a team as well, but I think this talk is out of hand looking at the rest of the league and considering that there were multiple positions of need in the draft. Would I have been happy if we drafted Alrbert in the 1st instead of Mcelvin? Yes (one of the few I'm sure).... But he wasn't about to come in here and help out Peters . He would have worked his way in backing up RT and challenging for starting RG spot and maybe in 2 or 3 years develop into a quality starter. The Bills were behind the 8 ball due to the previous regime and had to catch up quick last year by getting younger FA's with playing experience to fill those needs. I would call Dockery and Peters more than "NFL caliber"... and Butler is improving steadily while Walker was a surprise with how well he played last year. If someone major goes down on just about any team, it is going to create a problem. Hence the "Out of hand" comment

 

The Bills are on thin ice if they suffer a spate of injuries to the OL.

 

Because they have a 2nd year QB, for one. Edwards is the putative starter, and it has been a subject of endless debate about his physical skills. And the receiving corps. And the conservative coaching. And two-TE sets. And were it not for 2 TE sets and conservative play callls, what would have been Edwards' fate?

 

Compare them to another 7 - 9 team. CIN. Their D was wiped out early on. They lost RT Willie Anderson for for 9 games. LT Levi Jones missed 1 game outright, 3 starts, and didn't become effective until mid-season. Starting 4th round C Eric Ghiacuic missed 4 starts. Add in lousy coaching.

 

But they had a canny, talented vet at QB. An authentic blocking FB. A versatile G/T in 2nd round '06 pick Whitworth. An '04 4th rounder G/T Stacey Andrews who they franchised this year...and he needs to compete for a starting spot. The OL mish-mosh set a team record for fewest sacks, and they passed a lot more than BUF. There are two players on their OL bench that likely would start on other clubs.

 

BUF has none of this. They don't have a top QB to compensate for line losses. They haven't taken OL in the mid or higher rounds since M. Williams and so like I say...they are on thin ice.

 

You trust to luck if you don't tap the OL collegian talent except in the bottom of the draft. LT Peters defines the term "dumb luck"...

[C.Biscuit97]

The Bills are on thin ice if they suffer a spate of injuries to the OL.

 

Because they have a 2nd year QB, for one. Edwards is the putative starter, and it has been a subject of endless debate about his physical skills. And the receiving corps. And the conservative coaching. And two-TE sets. And were it not for 2 TE sets and conservative play callls, what would have been Edwards' fate?

 

Compare them to another 7 - 9 team. CIN. Their D was wiped out early on. They lost RT Willie Anderson for for 9 games. LT Levi Jones missed 1 game outright, 3 starts, and didn't become effective until mid-season. Starting 4th round C Eric Ghiacuic missed 4 starts. Add in lousy coaching.

 

But they had a canny, talented vet at QB. An authentic blocking FB. A versatile G/T in 2nd round '06 pick Whitworth. An '04 4th rounder G/T Stacey Andrews who they franchised this year...and he needs to compete for a starting spot. The OL mish-mosh set a team record for fewest sacks, and they passed a lot more than BUF. There are two players on their OL bench that likely would start on other clubs.

 

BUF has none of this. They don't have a top QB to compensate for line losses. They haven't taken OL in the mid or higher rounds since M. Williams and so like I say...they are on thin ice.

 

You trust to luck if you don't tap the OL collegian talent except in the bottom of the draft. LT Peters defines the term "dumb luck"...

 

The Bills beat Cincy

[Ramius]

out of hand??

 

it's not like they have 12 roster spots tied up with the OL.

 

The Bills have 4 NFL caliber OL on the roster with a marginal C.

 

They do not have an NFL calbier backup on the roster, especially one that can play LT effectively - which means not having to keep in 2 TEs and a back to cover up his shortcomings (which means Walker will get exposed on the other side)

 

The Bills were lucky last year that there were OL to overspend on.

 

With the increase in the cap, the ability to use free agency as a means to cover up for drafting ignorance will disappear. the Bills will be left with signing Bennie Anderson & Tuten Reyes quality players to plug holes

 

how many teams in the NFL have "quality" backup LT on their roster? answer: 0. When a good to great starting LT goes down, thats it for that team. The team is left scrambling for an answer. Most of the times, you see the starting RT switch over to LT, or kick a guard out to tackle, and the new backup will be put in at G. Theres a ton of shifting Why? Because no teams have "quality" backups at LT.

 

Now, back to your ignorant crusade.

[34-78-83]

The Bills are on thin ice if they suffer a spate of injuries to the OL.

 

Because they have a 2nd year QB, for one. Edwards is the putative starter, and it has been a subject of endless debate about his physical skills. And the receiving corps. And the conservative coaching. And two-TE sets. And were it not for 2 TE sets and conservative play callls, what would have been Edwards' fate?

 

Compare them to another 7 - 9 team. CIN. Their D was wiped out early on. They lost RT Willie Anderson for for 9 games. LT Levi Jones missed 1 game outright, 3 starts, and didn't become effective until mid-season. Starting 4th round C Eric Ghiacuic missed 4 starts. Add in lousy coaching.

 

But they had a canny, talented vet at QB. An authentic blocking FB. A versatile G/T in 2nd round '06 pick Whitworth. An '04 4th rounder G/T Stacey Andrews who they franchised this year...and he needs to compete for a starting spot. The OL mish-mosh set a team record for fewest sacks, and they passed a lot more than BUF. There are two players on their OL bench that likely would start on other clubs.

 

BUF has none of this. They don't have a top QB to compensate for line losses. They haven't taken OL in the mid or higher rounds since M. Williams and so like I say...they are on thin ice.

 

You trust to luck if you don't tap the OL collegian talent except in the bottom of the draft. LT Peters defines the term "dumb luck"...

 

Buffalo beats the living schitt out of Cincy just about every time the play them lately.

Plus, the FA's we DID sign were not dumb luck. They were calculated.

[C.Biscuit97]

This is an interesting concept. I respectfully disagree to a large extent, but the assertion that running matters less than before is an interesting thought.

 

You bring up Indy/Polian in terms of building a team. OK, but remember, Indy brought in Marvin Harrison and Ken Dilger (an exceptional player before he was injured) in 95/96. In 1997, they used their 1st and 2nd picks on OTs (Glenn and Meadows), then they drafted Manning.

 

When they lost Tarik Glenn to a very sudden retirement, Tony Ugoh (2nd round/pick 10) was waiting in the wings. This year, they actually drafted 3 Centers. Were there a lot of early DBs along the way? Sure, but I remind you that Indy plays at least half of their games in a dome, and was all set at QB, RB, WR, TE, and they had Freeney locked up at DE. Even at that, they didn't ignore blocking as you would suggest.

 

My main point was the Colts don't really draft linemen high. Saturday, I believe, was undrafted free agent cut by someone else. And they routinely plug in guards. I'm on my way to work, but I would venture to guess that the Bills have drafted close to the same # of o-linemen in the first 3 rounds as the Colts - Jennings, Williams, Preston. Additionally because of the league and free agency, the draft isn't the only means to acquiring players. Walker was a 2nd rounder and Dockery was a 3rd rounder. They are more valuable than any rookie because they have experience the speed of the pro game.

 

 

 

As for the "different league" thing, I would bet that you have stats to back this up. Still, I remind you yet again that the Bills play many games in inclement weather where passing is less important, and sometimes barely possible. The Bills have pretty good starters on the OL, yet they failed WAY too often in terms of converting on 3rd and short. Can we at least agree on this?

 

My views might be dated as you suggest. I don't know, but imo there is no substitute, especially in cold weather, for running the football, and stopping the other team from doing so. My thinking is that once a football team does this, other great things will follow.

This leaves us with the hope that Stroud and Poz can make a difference. I think they can and will, but it will be for naught if Duke Preston is lining up next to Fowler. NFL teams exploit this type of weakness. In other words, we better stay healthy up front, because we don't seem to have young, talented players on the bench to come in and block. But, we do have a bevy of corners.

 

Jmo.

 

In 1997, there were 0 4,000 yard passers (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=0B2F42F0C3AEFEE401C5EB5349968469?archive=true&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=1997&qualified=true&Submit=Find&tabSeq=0&d-447263-p=1'>http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=0B2F42F0C3AEFEE401C5EB5349968469?archive=true&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=1997&qualified=true&Submit=Find&tabSeq=0&d-447263-p=1). This past season, there were 7 and Hasselback missed it by 34 yards. (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=0B2F42F0C3AEFEE401C5EB5349968469?archive=true&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=1997&qualified=true&Submit=Find&tabSeq=0&d-447263-p=1)

 

I will agree that you can never have too many good linemen. But I think the key to having a really good line is conitnuity. When's the last time the Bills had an entire unit come back in the same exact positions??? As for as much crap as Fowler gets (and he deserves some definitely), Losman has commented how important Fowler is in making line assignments. This a very uderrated part of the center's job. Additionally, Butler and Fowler didn't have a single snap together until the first regular season game. Could center be upgrade? Of course. But I definitely think another year together could result in a much better showing.

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

yet with an all scrub secondary, the Bills still won 7 games.

 

If Peters goes down, they won't win half that many - and Trent's progress will be severely hindered.

 

Fewest sacks but worst in the league in 3rd and 4th down conversions.

 

The OL still has to prove it can pass block without keeping in 2 TEs and a back.

 

but ignoring the OL for teh last 10 years has worked well for the Bills - so why not continue with a winning strategy

Interesting factoid about Peters going down, Got Proof?

 

Maybe we had the worst 3rd and 4th down conversions because we had the worst play calling in the league on 1st-4th (punts and field goals are given a get-outa-stats-free card)

 

Let's see how the pass blocking changes in 2008 with:

 

1) a bona fide #2 receiver

2) play calling that doesn't send a jumbotron-sized message to the opposing DC about how to stop the Bills offense

3) using Marshawn Lynch as a receiver out of the backfield

4) allowing the QB to audible

[D_House]

The Bills beat Cincy

[Dibs]

My main point was the Colts don't really draft linemen high. Saturday, I believe, was undrafted free agent cut by someone else. And they routinely plug in guards. I'm on my way to work, but I would venture to guess that the Bills have drafted close to the same # of o-linemen in the first 3 rounds as the Colts.....

.....and you'd be correct.

From 1998-2007(10 years)

Colts....1x2nd & 1x3rd

Bills....1x1st & 2x3rd

 

To be fair though in 1997 they drafted long time starters Glenn & Meadows in the 1st & 2nd.....and used a 2nd on C this last draft making 1997-2008(12 years)

Colts....1/3/1

Bills....1/0/2

 

Personally I don't see any benefit in looking at what teams use their early draft picks on. If a team is successful in their first attempt(i.e. Glenn for the Colts), they may not need to draft that position again early in the draft for over a decade. Conversely if a team is unsuccessful in drafting at a certain position they can end up drafting that positions many times before they land a good starter(i.e. Rams DL...5x1st rounders in last 8 drafts).

That being said, until recently the Bills have not had any decent players on the OL for years except for Ruben Brown.....I think it can be safely said that for the most part the OL has been badly ignored for years. That is not to say that it makes any sense to 'make up' for past inequities by gratuitously drafting OLmen now. We have a pro-bowl LT. We have very solid/good LG & RT. We have a young RG who may get the job done.

Having chosen not to draft Albert in the 1st round, I can't see what difference drafting a 4th round OLman would have made to this upcoming season.....certainly he couldn't be expected to be an instant starter(Center).....and doubtful to become a quality backup in rookie year.

To me there seems to be a lot of fuss over basically nothing.

[NewEra]

Just wait and see. Kelsey and Schobel are underrated IMO. They are real good DEs and having a strong push up the middle will open up the ouside for these guys to nail Brady and Co.

 

they did a great job last year. /cough

[Orton's Arm]

Now I want to know which guy you're thinking of...I don't remember a Miami OT

If memory serves, that particular turnstile's name was Greg Jerman.

[NewEra]

I'm fine with that.

 

why not take a OL to develop in round 3 - 5 that might actually have some talent?

 

If Felton is so good, why did 32 teams forget to draft him?

 

Picking up scraps and hoping you catch lightning in a bottle is not a real high percetnage way to build and maintain your OL. After lucking out with Peters, the Bills are even more convinced they can find undrafted players to become functional OL. Theyu will be back in the market signing Bennie Anerson's and Tuten Reyes after their latest crop of undrafted and 7th round porjeucts washes out.

 

Why did 32 teams pass on Jason Peters? It was pretty obvious that he was gonna be a OL when we picked him up.

[NewEra]

I agree you cannot fix everything at the same time. This team looks much better than what it was when Marv inherited it. I hope they will continue to infuse youth into this team and keep it competitive. The one worry is we did not get much help for the OL. Granted we spent quite a bit of money last year, but what we need is those 4-5th round guards/centers. I would have been happy with at least one pick in that area for the OL.

 

I agree with you, but our guys liked something about this kid. maybe he was a nice find. you can never have too many talented dbs. hopefully we can pickup an Olineman down the road.

[marauderswr80]

I still think the Bills have a few moves waiting up their sleeves.......

 

Dont forget about that thing called JUNE 1st Cuts........

 

This could be when Buffalo snags a OL or 2 to make that impact for this team. Just cause a player is cut at that time dont mean he cant play and help the team...

 

Point being, I think Buffalo makes a move then aswell.......