Best Case Scenario

[K-9]

I'm having trouble finding that bit of information. How about providing a source for our edification?

 

Me, too. But in my post above yours I included a proof source for the contrary.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[RI Bills Fan]

And, Bill Parcells had a team with Ray Lucas and Rick Mirer as the starting QBs and still did not have a losing season.

 

What year was this? I don't remember Rick Mirer ever Starting for the Jests.

[Lori]

Looking behind the numbers...

Jauron's starting QBs by year:

1999: Miller 3, Matthews 7, and McNown 6

-Erik Kramer, the best QB the Bears have had since Jim McMahon, was released before training camp. McNown held out for most of camp, making Matthews was the opening-day starter; Bears were 3-2 when a hamstring injury put him out for the next two games. He re-aggravated the injury in his next start and was inactive for four more games. McNown took over, but obviously wasn't ready. Miller came in and played well for a couple of weeks, but missed the last four games due to suspension, leaving the team in the hands of the rookie and the journeyman with a bad leg.

 

2000: Miller 2, Matthews 5, and McNown 9

-Miller, the probable starter, was injured in preseason, so McNown won the job by default. Jauron stayed with the kid that Mark Hatley traded half of his 1999 draft to get through a 1-7 start. McNown separated his shoulder in the ninth game, making Miller the starter until he shredded his Achilles in a game at the Ralph. Matthews went the rest of the way.

 

2001: Matthews 3, and Miller 13

-Miller was still coming back from the Achilles injury, so Matthews began the season as the starter. Bruised ribs knocked him out of the lineup in week 3, and Miller reclaimed the job. He separated his shoulder in the playoff loss.

 

2002: Burris 1, Chandler 7, and Miller 8

-Miller started the first five weeks before leaving with tendinitis in his elbow. Chris Chandelier came in and started a couple of games before sustaining yet another concussion. Still battling shoulder and elbow issues, Miller started three of the next four before a knee injury ended his season.

 

2003: Grossman 3, Chandler 6, Stewart 7

-Stewart started the first six games, and the Bears were rewarded with a 1-5 record and a new quarterback. The official word was that Kordell had a thigh injury, but most observers considered the move a benching. Chandler lasted six games before the inevitable injury (shoulder); Stewart came back in and resumed sucking, so they gave the rookie some playing time.

 

2006: Losman 16

-Losman took every snap from center.

 

2007: Edwards 9, Losman 7

Losman: sprained MCL in week 3, out for four weeks. Edwards: sprained wrist in week 8, also out for four weeks, although he might have been ready to come back before then.

If anything, he's almost too loyal to the guy who's starting that week. Another coach wouldn't have given either McNown or Stewart half the season, and he apparently thought he owed Losman a chance to retake the job after Edwards' injury. And if Jim Miller had managed to stay healthy, those numbers above -- and the Bears' W-L records for those seasons -- would look a lot different.

[Adam]

It's amazing how reading this thread people become so defensive about Jauron. (no pun intended) I don't understand the allegiance to a HC who's made it into the playoffs once in 7 full seasons and promptly lost his only post-season game, despite being a #1 seed.

With all the bad jobs in the league, I think Gary Kubiak is the only genius- he didn't take one until the right job opened. Ask Wade Phillips, Greg Williams and Mike Mularkey what their opinion is on the Buffalo job

[Lurker]

With all the bad jobs in the league, I think Gary Kubiak is the only genius- he didn't take one until the right job opened. Ask Wade Phillips, Greg Williams and Mike Mularkey what their opinion is on the Buffalo job

There's something to be said for that...waiting for the perfect job. But in the cold, cruel world of the NFL, unless you're a golden child candidate like Kubiak, it's almost impossible to not take the job that's available, rather than hold out for the ideal one. There are only 5-6 openings a year, after all. The same principal applies to lower round draft picks and UDFA's (how many shots do you really get?)

 

Inevitably, it's why so many coaches wash out: bad teams are hard to fix, especially if the player personnel department's not top notch, as they typically are in those situations. Intangibles, like the QB injury carousel in CHI, or Brady's ankle injury in SB XLII or Thurman's fumble in XXVIII, determine so much of what happens to a team's W-L record.

 

This isn't to say that Jauron doesn't make his fair share of mistakes, he's human after all. But I seem to recall more than a few HOF coaches having brain cramps at inopportune times, or making ill advised decisions--yet retaining their aura of invincibility. The expectation levels these guys work under, with so many fans viewing this as a real-life game of Madden, are hard to believe.

[ax4782]

Looking behind the numbers...

 

If anything, he's almost too loyal to the guy who's starting that week. Another coach wouldn't have given either McNown or Stewart half the season, and he apparently thought he owed Losman a chance to retake the job after Edwards' injury. And if Jim Miller had managed to stay healthy, those numbers above -- and the Bears' W-L records for those seasons -- would look a lot different.

 

Or he wanted to make sure that Edwards didn't get back in there too soon and reaggrivate the injury. A lesson he learned in Chicago through the rocky QB years you described. Also, none of those guys was really a bona fide NFL starter, and he was able to cobble together a 13-3 team without a legit starting QB. Imagine what he might be able to do in Buffalo with the team he and the FO have finally put together. Give him a chance. Getting rid of coaches too soon has been a huge part of what killed this team over the past seven years. Too many coaching and FO shake ups. Time for some stability. Jauron has made the Bills competitive again. Give him another couple years to really get this team going. I have a good feeling that we will be in the hunt for the WC this year, and if the Cheatriots are having an off year due to a loss of talent, we might have a shot at the division.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Here is a link after 10 seconds of looking.

 

http://www.nfluk.com/features-display.php?id=3010

[Sisyphean Bills]

What year was this? I don't remember Rick Mirer ever Starting for the Jests.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyj/1999.htm

[Sisyphean Bills]

If anything, he's almost too loyal to the guy who's starting that week. Another coach wouldn't have given either McNown or Stewart half the season, and he apparently thought he owed Losman a chance to retake the job after Edwards' injury. And if Jim Miller had managed to stay healthy, those numbers above -- and the Bears' W-L records for those seasons -- would look a lot different.

I think you're wrong that another coach wouldn't have given his 1st round pick a chance. (You're definitely not thinking of Tom Coughlin.) I also think that you are wrong that this other coach wouldn't have given Stewart a chance after courting him in free agency to be his starter. No, the problem wasn't that Jauron was "too loyal", it was that Jauron pulled the trigger to bring in bad, brittle, and bust QBs to lead his team. He's not alone in that department. Wayne Fontes changed QBs more often than his boxers too.

 

Jauron: 0.189 lifetime against playoff teams.

 

[Edit] I don't buy the point about Miller either. Miller shouldn't be dismissed as "garbage", that I agree with. But, his career is one of a fairly pedestrian QB (a 75.2 rating). Beyond the brittleness, he just wasn't a big time QB.

[Adam]

I think you're wrong that another coach wouldn't have given his 1st round pick a chance. (You're definitely not thinking of Tom Coughlin.) I also think that you are wrong that this other coach wouldn't have given Stewart a chance after courting him in free agency to be his starter. No, the problem wasn't that Jauron was "too loyal", it was that Jauron pulled the trigger to bring in bad, brittle, and bust QBs to lead his team. He's not alone in that department. Wayne Fontes changed QBs more often than his boxers too.

 

Jauron: 0.189 lifetime against playoff teams.

Wayne Fontes had a similar problem- he played all those QB's because he didn't have one

[Dibs]

..........it was that Jauron pulled the trigger to bring in bad, brittle, and bust QBs to lead his team. He's not alone in that department. Wayne Fontes changed QBs more often than his boxers too.

How is it you can be shown that your perceptions are incorrect time & again & yet still persist with the fallacy?

 

1999.....draft McNown.....he was a bust. No bad there since at least 3 in 4 1st round QBs(not including #1 overall) are busts.

2001.....Goes with Miller who does pretty good.....but gets injured.

By this stage(2002) he has no say in personnel decisions & had to go with Chandler(who was so old he had gray pubes).

In comes the useless Stewart in 2003.

 

How do you get "Jauron pulled the trigger to bring in bad, brittle, and bust QBs to lead his team" from that history?

 

In Buffalo he started the incumbent(JPL)......and drafted a very promising young QB(TE).....he has not had any time to show one way or the other with the Bills.

 

I couldn't care less if you think DJ is a terrible coach(personally I am withholding judgment for now).....but to continually put forward BS statements even after they are thoroughly refuted is annoying.

[Lori]

I think you're wrong that another coach wouldn't have given his 1st round pick a chance. (You're definitely not thinking of Tom Coughlin.) I also think that you are wrong that this other coach wouldn't have given Stewart a chance after courting him in free agency to be his starter. No, the problem wasn't that Jauron was "too loyal", it was that Jauron pulled the trigger to bring in bad, brittle, and bust QBs to lead his team. He's not alone in that department. Wayne Fontes changed QBs more often than his boxers too.

 

Jauron: 0.189 lifetime against playoff teams.

 

So now that I've disproven your theory that Jauron "switches" quarterbacks often, we're back to the "he had complete control in Chicago." Sorry, but that one's not true either:

The amazing journey: what kind of a leader was Chicago's Dick Jauron? He engineered one of the greatest turnarounds in recent NFL history - Coach of the Year

...

A 19-45 record from 1997 through 2000 prompted the Bears to hire their first general manager in 14 years. Jerry Angelo came on board in June 2001 and was given complete authority over football operations, including the hiring and firing of coaches. While Jauron was assured of being retained for 2001, the common perception was that Angelo would bring in his own coach after that.

 

...and further down in the same article...

EXECUTIVE OF THE YEAR

 

Mark Hatley, Bears. We know, we know--this appears to be a strange pick, seeing as Hatley now works in the Packers front office. But take a closer look, and you'll realize it makes perfect sense. Most Bears fans were glad when Hatley left for Green Bay soon after running the Bears' 2001 draft, citing the two major blunders of his four-year stewardship in Chicago: the drafting of Curtis Enis and Cade McNown. But following a 2001 season in which the Bears defied all expectations, a lot of those fans wish he were back in Chicago. Many of the players central to the Bears' success were brought in by Hatley, including Brian Urlacher, Anthony Thomas, Ted Washington, Keith Traylor, R.W. McQuarters, Rosevelt Colvin, Warrick Holdman, Marty Booker, Mike Brown, Brad Maynard, Jim Miller, Olin Kreutz, and Tony Parrish. That's quite a roll call.--William Wagner

[Lurker]

Here is a link after 10 seconds of looking.

 

http://www.nfluk.com/features-display.php?id=3010

Thanks...but I'm a little suspect of a fanboy site like Connor Bryne's, based in the UK of all places.

 

How about taking another 10 seconds and finding me a legit site...I'll gladly eat crow if you can show me that Jauron was making the draft and FA decisions, not the late Mark Hatley and then, as Lori's link shows, Jerry Angelo (who gave Juaron a 3-year extension after the 2001 season, then canned him after botching the next two drafts).

 

Thanks in advance.

 

While in Chicago, Hatley led the Bears' scouting efforts at both the professional and college levels, directed the annual draft and oversaw the team's free agency activity.

 

Of the 30 players selected in Hatley's initial three drafts in Chicago (1998-2000), 28 remain in the NFL today. Hatley's 2000 draft yielded three all-rookie performers: linebacker Brian Urlacher, safety Mike Brown and kicker Paul Edinger. Urlacher garnered consensus rookie 'Defensive Player of the Year' honors while also earning a trip to the 2001 Pro Bowl. Hatley's '98 effort generated all-rookie safety Tony Parrish.

 

Via trade and free agency, Hatley brought in starters such as Blake Brockermeyer, Jim Miller, Mike Wells, Thomas Smith, Phillip Daniels and Glyn Milburn. Milburn's performance in 1999 earned all-pro and Pro Bowl recognition. Of the Bears' 2001 potential starters, 11 are products of Hatley's four drafts. Players Hatley acquired via free agency and trade amount to nine other potential starters and key contributors.

[Sisyphean Bills]

So now that I've disproven your theory that Jauron "switches" quarterbacks often, we're back to the "he had complete control in Chicago." Sorry, but that one's not true either:

Thank you for all the corrections. Apparently, I wasn't reading all the legit sources. There were no "QB switches often" and Jauron is just a helpless victim. I got it now.

[Lurker]

Thank you for all the corrections. Apparently, I wasn't reading all the legit sources. There were no "QB switches often" and Jauron is just a helpless victim. I got it now.

Thanks in advance.

[Beerball]

3) Hardy is not a criminal.

I was very skeptical about Hardy after reading about his incident in college with his girlfriend/child, but after listening to his combine PC and then the Bills organization I have high hopes for this young man. He appears truthful and we know that the Bills investigated this and found him 'clean'. He has overcome huge odds already in his life, and I think the best is yet to come.

4) I think that R.Rich was right about this kid.

I hate it when that happens.

5) Butler keps progressing. This is freaking huge.

We need this in a big way.

6) Duke Preston is cut. I don't care if he is replaced by a udfa. He is a bad football player.

9) Parrish doesn't get broken in half.

I don't think we will see him return punts any longer. IF he does it is because the rooks failed.

 

10) Last but far from least, Trent Edwards needs to be even almost as good as I think that he will be. It is a ton to ask or expect from a kid with 9 starts, but I really do see great things in this kid. How perfect would it be for us if he shows enough to unite the crowd at OBD, let alone TSW?

Hope he turns into the next great Bills QB.

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sisyphean Bills]

Thanks in advance.

For what?

 

Actually, now that I have you two to answer all my questions, can I fire away?

 

- When was Jauron hired as HC of the Bears?

 

- When was Angelo hired as GM of the Bears?

 

- Did Wannstedt have control of personnel before Jauron?

 

- Was Jauron's contract structured differently than that of Wannstedt's? In what ways?

 

- Who was GM of the Bears after Wannstedt was fired and before Angelo was hired?

 

- Who was the Bears last GM before Jerry Angelo?

 

- Can you post a copy of Jauron's contract? And Angelo's as well?

 

- Is the Chicago Tribune worth reading?

 

- When was Cade McNown drafted?

 

- When was Rex Grossman drafted?

 

- Do you have a link from a legit source that says Miller was the #1 going into the 2000 season?

 

- When was McNown released?

 

- Was the problem that McNown was not the "perfect QB" for Crowton's college offense brought up from the bayou or was it that Crowton's offense wasn't up to the task in the NFL? Who hired Crowton?

 

- How many starts does a QB need to be declared a bust?

 

- What is the definition of a bust?

 

- Did the Bears have "nothing but garbage" at QB as some have said? Or was Jim Miller a special QB that was a victim of fate and injury, as Lori implied?

 

- Was Dick a liar when he said McNown gave his team the best chance to win?

 

- When McNown was benched, how prepared was Miller?

 

- Did Chris Chandler start and win a playoff game? Did Chris Chandler start in a Super Bowl? Are QBs that start Super Bowls customarily categorized as busts or garbage? What does it take to be considered "not garbage"?

 

- Did Chris Chandler make a Pro Bowl? How many?

 

- If a guy plays in the NFL for 17 years, is he a bust?

 

- Is having a QB with a history of concussions run a QB sneak a wise coaching move?

 

- Did Kordell Stewart make a Pro Bowl? If so when and how far removed was that from his days in Chicago?

 

- How many starts does it take to develop a "project" player? A project QB? How many starts for a #1 overall, blue chip QB? Is there any difference between a project and a blue chip QB, or more generally regardless of position?

 

- When will Dick Jauron stop being a victim and emerge as the best coach ever?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

[Edit]

 

PS: This is more of a philosophical question.

 

- What is your definition of leadership? Does leadership entail authority, responsibility or accountability? If so, to what degree? Is it just a matter of convenience? Can leadership exist where there is no authority, responsibility or accountability?

[Pyrite Gal]

Looking behind the numbers...

 

If anything, he's almost too loyal to the guy who's starting that week. Another coach wouldn't have given either McNown or Stewart half the season, and he apparently thought he owed Losman a chance to retake the job after Edwards' injury. And if Jim Miller had managed to stay healthy, those numbers above -- and the Bears' W-L records for those seasons -- would look a lot different.

My sense of the Bills QB situation was that the choices made as to which QB should start were much more forced by reality than by DJ or anyone's preference as to who they judged was the QB to invest in. Specifically:

 

1. Drafting Edwards took some independent action which went against the norm as we already had a young QB who had a troubled career (but a trouble overarching situation under the twists and turns of TD) but who had started 16 straight the year before and left the fanbase fairly hopeful he might actually be the answer. Yet, the move was more than defensible and in retrospect a no-brainer as Edwards was a clear second round talent who had the endorsement of old sage Bill Walsh, It was now clear that Nall was a marginal answer at best as the #2 who MIGHT do the job necessary as a fill-in but almost certainly would not develop into the QB of the future.

 

Edwards was a gutsy choice but really this showed few signs of a regime that desperately was looking for an alternative to JP but instead if an opportunity fell to them they had no reluctance to take it.

 

Again great reaction but few signs of a pro-active campaign to make the QB situation follow a particular path.

 

2. Making Edwards the #2 had clear implications for JP IF he got injured, but again this showed good reactive instincts by the Bills rather than a pro-active plan to make Edwards the starter ASAP. If anything, the most proactive part of this had an impact on Craig Nall as he was shipped out in addition to being passed over.

 

3. JP got illegally hit by Woolfork and reality dictated that Edwards start. Again if someone wanted to hatch a conspiracy theory that DJ had it out for JP the decision which made this a reality was getting rid of Nall as there was no decision to have Woolfork kill JP.

 

4. A fight might have emerged over whether to bench Edwards and bring JP back under the oft observed cliche that a player should not lose his job due to injury. However, giving JP another week of recovery was not outlandish with the decision to go with Edwards as starter against NYJ. The proof was in the pudding as to whether JP had recovered enough physically to play as he led the team to a victory in relief of Edwards. However, he was winning generally and playing well so this was at most a reactive decision rather than some proactive plot. Even more to the point when Edwards went down it was no one's plan but reality simply forced JP in.

 

5. The next decision was also a tribute to reaction as by now it seemed pretty clear that the Bills braintrust wanted to go with the guy they drafted who had been incredibly impressive for a rookie when he was forced into the line-up. However, reality again dictated that the Bills react in a particular way as JP had been the QB when the team pulled off a winning streak which put them in contention at least for a playoff spot. Reactions again dictated not that the Bills fulfill some conspiracy but that they keep JP as the starting QB. They did this.

 

However, ultimately JP did the coaches the favor of all calling himself out by declaring the Jax game make or break and by anyone's estimation he broke,

So I reject the notion that the Bill braintrust are and have always been operating within some nefarious plan at QB. The braintrust pretty much has done what the realities of injuries and the perceived realities of the marketplace forced them to do.

 

They probably were pleased with the way they were forced to go but that is just the game.

[Lori]

Thank you for all the corrections. Apparently, I wasn't reading all the legit sources. There were no "QB switches often" and Jauron is just a helpless victim. I got it now.

I don't care one way or the other about Jauron. In fact, if you go back into the archives here, you'll find that I was on the Mike Sherman bandwagon.

 

But you said, "Look it up." So I did. I also talked to Chris Villarrial about Miller and Jauron while he was here. Is that "legit" enough for you?

 

You're welcome.

[Lurker]

Thanks

You're welcome...carry on with your boulder.