A technique question about how we ran our D scheme

[Pyrite Gal]

In another thread someone made the claim that the stats indicate that it was Greer who most often faced off against the opponents #1 WR rather than McGee and thus Greer should be considered our current #1 and McGee the #2 as McKelvin competes to make the starting line-up.

 

I must admit I did not pay a lot of attention to these match-ups since as I have said repetitively, in the Cover 2 as we run it, the CB responsibility for the WR is in the short zone and his job is to work with safeties (and the MLB for the deep middle when we are running something more like the Tampa 2) to turn over the coverage of the WR for the mid and deep outside zones.

 

The CB does have match-up coverage on the WR in the shortzone as he is expected to do press coverage, but the claim that we are assigning our top CB to cover their top WR is actually illusory as in the Bills scheme Greer is always playing the right CB role in what is basically a match-up zone coverage and McGee is playing the left CB role.

 

To the extent that there is any statistical indication that we chose to have Greer face the tougher opponent it is because IF the offense made a choice they chose to have their better receiver pick on Greer.

 

Traditionally and early in the first year under Jauron/Fewell we ran our D in a static mode with CBs assigned not a particular WR but always assigned to a specific side of the field. We changed this up in the middle of last year and had Clements assigned to the opponents #1 because McGee had a not atypical problem of really operating well in the Cover 2 (many players say it takes a full season or even a little more for a player to really get it as far as doing correct reads and playing the Cover 2 like it should be played).

 

McGee actually had such problems that the coaching staff simply benched him for a game and made him watch and learn without having to worry for a game about getting toasted.

 

In addition, when McGee re-entered the line-up, they then switched us from a static application of the D scheme where a particular CB always covered the same side of the field to one where NC covered the opposing #1 WR whereever he lined up.

 

These two moves had a beneficial impact on McGee's play which improved a lot in the second half of 06 to the extent the Bills were comfortable with him as the #1 CB last year despite his trials and tribulations in the first half of the 06 season. The stats I saw last year seemed to bear this out in terms of McGee's play.

 

The overall team pass D stats were simply horrible, but I attribute this as much to and actually even more to our horrendous lack of a pass rush than to coverage issues.

 

So my question to anyone who was tracking this, did the Bills tend to always send their CBs to the same side of the field as they traditionally have done, or did they assign a particular CB to do his press coverage in the short zone on a particular WR.

 

I think it was the former and thus to the extent the stats show Greer getting more action than McGee or dueling with the other teams #1 WR it likely was because the opponent chose to pick on Greer rather than us sending Greer in to do battle against the other team's #1 because we judged him to be better than McGee.

 

As far as McKelvin goes, he should ultimately become the answer at one CB slot for the Bills for years to come. However, though the conventional wisdom is that a 1st round choice is supposed to start immediately, it would not surprise me at all if McKelvin will be doing quite well if he were even to win the nickel role in game 1.

 

Did McKelvin play in some collegiate version of the Cover 2 or if not did he see many opponents using the Cover 2. If likely not, then it would surprise me to see it take a season of play before he is ready to start for the Bills at CB even though he is an incredibly gifted athlete who was clearly the best CB in college ball.

 

McKelvin may end up in a tough position with many rabid fans and the uninformed media types labeling his a mistaken pick if he does not start immediately at CB. He easily may not and he would still be the furthest thing from a bust if it takes him a chunk of time before he can be trusted to play much less start at CB.

 

It could get even tougher for him with the nervous Nellies who will demand he start and contribute immediately if in order to get a shot at return duty he would have to beat out one of the best PR guys in the NFL and a former recent Pro Bowler at KR for us.

 

Personally, I hope he is so good he immediately becomes our CB and stars there. I doubt however, my fantasy wish will come true. We'll see.

[Dawgg]

So my question to anyone who was tracking this, did the Bills tend to always send their CBs to the same side of the field as they traditionally have done, or did they assign a particular CB to do his press coverage in the short zone on a particular WR.

 

Last year, it was more of the former.

 

When Nate Clements was on the team, they made the conscious decision around 4 games in that Nate would cover the team's #1 receiver and follow him around wherever he goes. Nate ended up having one of his best seasons, propelling him to a mega-$$$ deal with the 49ers. If McKelvin can develop into that type of corner, this is a great pick.

[Chilly]

Last year, it was more of the former.

 

When Nate Clements was on the team, they made the conscious decision around 4 games in that Nate would cover the team's #1 receiver and follow him around wherever he goes. Nate ended up having one of his best seasons, propelling him to a mega-$$$ deal with the 49ers. If McKelvin can develop into that type of corner, this is a great pick.

 

This is also what I've seen.

[SuperKillerRobots]

I didn't do any analysis on this, but I think last year they tried to aviod matching McGee up with taller receivers. When watching the Dallas game for instance, it seemed like Jabari was always on TO. Your idea could absolutely be correct that the match up was not our preference, but instead the other team's, but I still think that they tried in some games, not all (and after they realized the guy could actually play), to match him up against the taller ones, since I think he has at least two inches on McGee and Mcgee really doesn't seem to be able to play the bigger receivers consistantly as well as the smaller ones.

[K-9]

In another thread someone made the claim that the stats indicate that it was Greer who most often faced off against the opponents #1 WR rather than McGee and thus Greer should be considered our current #1 and McGee the #2 as McKelvin competes to make the starting line-up.

 

I must admit I did not pay a lot of attention to these match-ups since as I have said repetitively, in the Cover 2 as we run it, the CB responsibility for the WR is in the short zone and his job is to work with safeties (and the MLB for the deep middle when we are running something more like the Tampa 2) to turn over the coverage of the WR for the mid and deep outside zones.

 

The CB does have match-up coverage on the WR in the shortzone as he is expected to do press coverage, but the claim that we are assigning our top CB to cover their top WR is actually illusory as in the Bills scheme Greer is always playing the right CB role in what is basically a match-up zone coverage and McGee is playing the left CB role.

 

To the extent that there is any statistical indication that we chose to have Greer face the tougher opponent it is because IF the offense made a choice they chose to have their better receiver pick on Greer.

 

Traditionally and early in the first year under Jauron/Fewell we ran our D in a static mode with CBs assigned not a particular WR but always assigned to a specific side of the field. We changed this up in the middle of last year and had Clements assigned to the opponents #1 because McGee had a not atypical problem of really operating well in the Cover 2 (many players say it takes a full season or even a little more for a player to really get it as far as doing correct reads and playing the Cover 2 like it should be played).

 

McGee actually had such problems that the coaching staff simply benched him for a game and made him watch and learn without having to worry for a game about getting toasted.

 

In addition, when McGee re-entered the line-up, they then switched us from a static application of the D scheme where a particular CB always covered the same side of the field to one where NC covered the opposing #1 WR whereever he lined up.

 

These two moves had a beneficial impact on McGee's play which improved a lot in the second half of 06 to the extent the Bills were comfortable with him as the #1 CB last year despite his trials and tribulations in the first half of the 06 season. The stats I saw last year seemed to bear this out in terms of McGee's play.

 

The overall team pass D stats were simply horrible, but I attribute this as much to and actually even more to our horrendous lack of a pass rush than to coverage issues.

 

So my question to anyone who was tracking this, did the Bills tend to always send their CBs to the same side of the field as they traditionally have done, or did they assign a particular CB to do his press coverage in the short zone on a particular WR.

 

I think it was the former and thus to the extent the stats show Greer getting more action than McGee or dueling with the other teams #1 WR it likely was because the opponent chose to pick on Greer rather than us sending Greer in to do battle against the other team's #1 because we judged him to be better than McGee.

 

As far as McKelvin goes, he should ultimately become the answer at one CB slot for the Bills for years to come. However, though the conventional wisdom is that a 1st round choice is supposed to start immediately, it would not surprise me at all if McKelvin will be doing quite well if he were even to win the nickel role in game 1.

 

Did McKelvin play in some collegiate version of the Cover 2 or if not did he see many opponents using the Cover 2. If likely not, then it would surprise me to see it take a season of play before he is ready to start for the Bills at CB even though he is an incredibly gifted athlete who was clearly the best CB in college ball.

 

McKelvin may end up in a tough position with many rabid fans and the uninformed media types labeling his a mistaken pick if he does not start immediately at CB. He easily may not and he would still be the furthest thing from a bust if it takes him a chunk of time before he can be trusted to play much less start at CB.

 

It could get even tougher for him with the nervous Nellies who will demand he start and contribute immediately if in order to get a shot at return duty he would have to beat out one of the best PR guys in the NFL and a former recent Pro Bowler at KR for us.

 

Personally, I hope he is so good he immediately becomes our CB and stars there. I doubt however, my fantasy wish will come true. We'll see.

 

PG, you've GOT to get off this "cover 2/Tampa 2" kick. The Bills play many different types of zone pass defense during the course of the year and the cover 2 is just one of them. And we didn't have the personnel to play the Tampa version last year because of the injuries, especially to our MLB, the key to the Tampa version. Cover 2 has been around for nearly 40 years and the Dungy/Kiffin version is taken right from that. It's not like it's a new mysterious pass defense concept that requires unique corners to run it sussessfully. That is a media created myth.

 

Doesn't matter if McKelvin never played the defense in college or not (although I find it hard to believe they didn't play cover-2 from time to time). Like Nate in '01, he will be the starter next year. Once he signs he officially becomes the best CB on the team precisely BECAUSE of his man skills. Those skills will allow us a bit more flexibility in our coverages as well. Like flip-flopping our CBs more often or simply having him lock-up.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[LynchMob23]

A few things:

 

1. When Nate was here, we were primarily a match-up defense pre-Jauron - for an example of this, see the Miami game where he lost it because a reporter thought he was "scared" to cover Chambers on the last play.

 

2. Monte Kiffin himself has debunked the erroneous assertion that a premier corner is not needed in the Tampa 2. Point blank he stated, "when we put eight in the box, we can't play cover 2. when we play nickel, we can't play cover 2. you give me a guy that can play man well, I'll stick him in the slot and I'll teach him zone." So, despite your thoughts to the contrary PG, corners ARE in fact important. Another Tampa 2 buster - trips to one side or double tight end sets instantly call off the cover 2.

 

3. You are dead on with the positions. McGee if memory serves has been (with the exception of a few series in weeks 1-3) the left corner and insert corner here has been right, with Greer making himself a fixture towards the end.

 

Good discussion PG

[stuckincincy]

In another

 

...world, the opposing offense made the Bills, like any other club, toss dogma aside, see sense, and use whatever scheme that had some sort of chance to get the defense off the field...

[BillsVet]

In 2006, I cannot help but recall how the Detroit Lions of all teams repeatedly threw to Roy Williams when covered by McGee. Finally, in the second half, someone made the wise decision to have Clements cover Williams and things got a lot better. Williams ended up with 10 catches for 161 yards and a TD. He was targeted at least another 5 times with McGee in coverage in the first half. Making matters worse, Simpson and Whitner are also noted as being in on coverage. Obviously the youth wasn't ready, and Kitna picked apart the secondary.

 

Bills Lions 10/15/06

 

The notion that there isn't some plan to have your top corner cover the opposing #1 receiver is bogus, C2 or not. I'm sure DJ finally relented to having NC cover Williams around halftime, but by then the damage was done. This sort of DJ ignore reality imindset is something I don't think he'll ever get away from. Amazingly, it took DJ a few quarters to realize his scheme didn't have the players in the secondary, besides NC. That day he had a fine CB to make him look better, but in 07 we didn't. Then again, NC was too expensive and wasn't necessary.

 

McKelvin will have some top WR's to cover in 08, including Randy Moss, Braylon Edwards, Larry Fitzgerald, Chris Chambers, Torry Holt, Dwayne Bowe, and perhaps Brandon Marshall. While he might not be matched up with each of these guys, the Bills will have challenges just about every week. They can't have a performance like Williams gave them in 06 if they're going to win. I would point out that the pass rush can alleviate some of these issues, but the CB play needs to be better.

[jarthur31]

To put it succinctly, it was supposed to be a variant of the "Tampa Cover 2". It was executed badly as our defensive ranking shows. You need a NT or 2 DT to bring the pressure of the middle and Lord knows we've been missing that for years. Our run D was absolutely atrocious. I can't believe it took us this long to acquire a player like Stroud. Letting Pat Williams walk was a big mistake just like releasing Ruben Brown (who BTW started at RG in his Super Bowl).

[lets_go_bills]

I actually took the time to read that giant post and applaud your wisdom.

 

You're right when you say that in the Cover 2 the CBs are to bump receivers off the line and cover in the short area and eventually "pass" them off to the safeties.

 

That said, we don't ALWAYS play Cover 2, it is our base package, but not our only D.

 

When you have a shutdown CB like Clements, you are going to make adjustments to your D scheme so that he is on the other team's top WR most, if not all the time. This ensures the best chance of neutralizing the opponents top target.

 

McGee is the better CB (more athletic, better ball skills), Greer did well though.

 

Our problem was simple, no pass rush.

 

Simply put, the Cover 2's success is wholey contingent on the front four applying pressure consistently. The D-Line was to blame for our poor pass defence. Stroud, Johnson, and Ellis will fiz this.

 

McKelvin will be brought along slowly, and I expect him to start the season as our nickel corner, but by the mid-point of the season he will be starting opposite McGee.

[Pete]

I actually took the time to read that giant post and applaud your wisdom.

 

You're right when you say that in the Cover 2 the CBs are to bump receivers off the line and cover in the short area and eventually "pass" them off to the safeties.

 

That said, we don't ALWAYS play Cover 2, it is our base package, but not our only D.

 

When you have a shutdown CB like Clements, you are going to make adjustments to your D scheme so that he is on the other team's top WR most, if not all the time. This ensures the best chance of neutralizing the opponents top target.

 

McGee is the better CB (more athletic, better ball skills), Greer did well though.

 

Our problem was simple, no pass rush.

 

Simply put, the Cover 2's success is wholey contingent on the front four applying pressure consistently. The D-Line was to blame for our poor pass defence. Stroud, Johnson, and Ellis will fiz this.

 

McKelvin will be brought along slowly, and I expect him to start the season as our nickel corner, but by the mid-point of the season he will be starting opposite McGee.

good post. Do not forget about adding in a healthy Denney into the rotation. I am very optimistic about our D. I wish training camp started next week

[lets_go_bills]

good post. Do not forget about adding in a healthy Denney into the rotation. I am very optimistic about our D. I wish training camp started next week

 

I can't wait for camp either.

[Pyrite Gal]

Our problem was simple, no pass rush.

Exactly.

[Mikie2times]

Exactly.

Not exactly, that is, unless you feel like your in a better position to judge the problem then our coaching staff. I would say 3 corners drafted would indicate it wasn't just the pass rush to them.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Not exactly, that is, unless you feel like your in a better position to judge the problem then our coaching staff. I would say 3 corners drafted would indicate it wasn't just the pass rush to them.

Or maybe they think they've fixed the issue, adding Stroud, S. Johnson, Denney and Ellis? Call me skeptical about the Bills' pass rush...but I'm not the one in charge. I think chances are they believe the rush will be much-improved.

[Mikie2times]

Or maybe they think they've fixed the issue, adding Stroud, S. Johnson, Denney and Ellis? Call me skeptical about the Bills' pass rush...but I'm not the one in charge. I think chances are they believe the rush will be much-improved.

I agree that it will be much improved, but you also don't draft 3 CB's if you think the position is set. People who say it was just the pass rush are simplifying things way to much. It's always a combination of secondary play AND pass rush. Both were deficient, both were addressed, so we should stand to improve a great deal.

[Dibs]

Exactly.

Shortest PG post ever?

[Pete]

Shortest PG post ever?

[Sisyphean Bills]

Not exactly, that is, unless you feel like your in a better position to judge the problem then our coaching staff. I would say 3 corners drafted would indicate it wasn't just the pass rush to them.

Exactly.

 

The defense was just plain inferior at all levels last year. The Bills did not focus only on the DL. They went out and signed DL, LB, and DB in FA and then they drafted defense with picks at DL, LB, and DB.

 

I know there is this urban myth that the "defense was fine", but it wasn't. It was ranked at the bottom. They couldn't stop the run or the pass.

[Pyrite Gal]

Not exactly, that is, unless you feel like your in a better position to judge the problem then our coaching staff. I would say 3 corners drafted would indicate it wasn't just the pass rush to them.

Agreeing exactly with the sentiment that our simple problem was a lack of a pass rush does not invalidate the concept that we need adequate CBs. It is more a statement that a good pass rush is a clear rate limiting factor in my mind, IMHO.

 

I look at it this way.

 

How would your team do with a good pass rush and good CBs- Very well.

 

How would your team do with a bad pass rush and bad CBs- Poorly

 

How would your team do with a good pass rush and bad CBs- not well but potentially adequately

 

How would your team do with a bad pass rush and good CBs- not well but potentially poorly

 

It is a team game and one wants all areas to work. However, a pass rush can cure a lot of CB ills, but it is difficult for good CBs to cure bad pass rush ills.

 

Its a question who dictates the game and the plays. A good pass rush forces the play while a good CB merely forces the opponent to try other options to beat you.

 

If your pass rush makes mistakes your CB must play well or it is 6 for the other team.

 

If your CB makes a mistake but if your pass rush sacks the QB the CB error is meaningless.

 

CBs are essential to the game (like any player) but I am one who errs on the side of dictating the game.