I've never seen him play and am relying on reporters, but ...

[dave mcbride]

The only type of player in the draft who might have immediately raised our status to contender was gone 4 spots before we picked. After studying the way the best teams have contemporarily been drafting, and without a sure hit 2 role TE there to go to, the best play for us is probably going to historically be the one we went with. Our management didn't fail us by taking a 2nd round WR at 11, and even thyough I think the defense we're playing right now doesn't have to have as good a CB as we appear to have drafted, the reality is you have to work with the players on the board and we did. I mentioned to a few of the TSW alumni as the draft started that seeing us take a CB would probably be the best move we could make, and I haven't changed my feelings on that.

 

We're razor thin at what I believe is the most important position in football today- but there are few high caliber prospects at the critical spot and in this draft onely one- and he wasn't going to get to us. We know that UDFA are nearly as likely to end up in our starting lineup as 5+ rounders, so the positional side later on in the draft seems less important. Like I said earlier- we got a little better in FA and we got a little better in the draft. With the weaker schedule, and assuming Stroud is healthy enough to start at least 11 or 12 games, we should expect an improvement in the win column in 2008. The downside is that if Stroud has trouble and ends up with a limited contribution, we'll be an embarrassing last in the AFC East and the team everyone in the league will want to play- and run on.

Good post.

[apuszczalowski]

The Giants beat the Bills in SB 25 with a journeyman at QB, a retread at RB, bad WRS and CBs because they dominated at the line of scrimmage

And if a last second kick would have been a little straighter, your arguement would be right out the window

[BADOLBILZ]

But they're inarguably sub-average NFL CBs, getting beat like drums repeatedly throughout the season.

 

I disagree, McGee and Greer are both pretty good cover corners, but they are not well suited to play zone coverage. The problem is the Bills can't rush the passer, so Fewell is afraid to take chances in the secondary for fear of being beaten over the top. Then when teams repeatedly throw the ball underneath, those guys aren't physical enough to jump the routes or come up and jar the ball loose. McKelvin is talented enough to play any scheme, but his talent will be muted by zone coverage. Corner and Cox are pretty much zone corners.

[dave mcbride]

I disagree, McGee and Greer are both pretty good cover corners, but they are not well suited to play zone coverage. The problem is the Bills can't rush the passer, so Fewell is afraid to take chances in the secondary for fear of being beaten over the top. Then when teams repeatedly throw the ball underneath, those guys aren't physical enough to jump the routes or come up and jar the ball loose. McKelvin is talented enough to play any scheme, but his talent will be muted by zone coverage. Corner and Cox are pretty much zone corners.

I have to admit that I don't get the "corners aren't as important as DEs" argument. Looking back over the past twenty years or so, the elite teams all feature a great CB or two. One could argue that the Pats didn't in 04, but that team won with offense. In 01 and 03, Ty Law was central to their success. Kevin Smith, Chris McAllister, and Deion Sanders were vital to the success of their teams, and the Steelers had great DBs in the 90s.

 

Re: McGee and Greer, I have to disagree. Maybe we're focusing on different aspects of their game, but too often they seem a day late and a dollar short to me. They tend not to get burned so badly that Bills fans take them to task -- the old "look good while losing a close battle" argument (the reason why dopes slam Clements) -- but I watched far too many games last year where the good QBs went to town against them when it counted (Romo [who sliced and diced them when it mattered most], Brady, McNabb, Garrard, and Roethlisberger). They looked slightly better against Derek Anderson and Eli, but I'm chalking that up to the wind/rain/snow. Playing against a gimp-armed Pennington, the terrible Miami QBs, and stiffs like Boeller and Jason Campbell can give one false hope. Heck, they folded late against Cutler too, and I simply can't blame the coaches. I will give them credit for playing passably well against Cincy, who feature a legitimately excellent passing offense.

 

Having said all of this, they're the kind of guys you want on your team. Under no circumstances, though, should Terrence McGee be your shutdown corner.

 

By the way, for the last nine games of 06, Fewell/Jauron weren't playing Clements in zone coverage.

[Ball'n]

From what im reading if he had ball skills he would end up being a lesser verison of deion but still nasty.

[John from Riverside]

The Bills spent $75 million last season upgrading the O-line. They re-signed Whittle this year for depth and took a project with huge upside late in the draft in the form of Bell. They traded for Marcus Stroud, signed Spencer Johnson, drafted Chris Ellis, and get the benefit of an added year of experience and health for McCargo (not to mention Poz) for the D-line. I'm a proponent of building a team from the lines out, too, but is it OK to fill holes elsewhere?? Jesus H., people!

 

Also....nobody seems to be talking about how our team was decimated by injuries.....I mean look at this and I will probably leave somebody out......

 

Simpson.....gone for the year

Poz....gone for the year early

Webster....sucked in my opinion but gone for the year

Coy Wire....was playing well and got hurt

Both Denny AND Kelsay missed time

Veteran DE Wallace brought in......gone for the year

Merz...gone for the year

the other vet guard we brought in...gone for the year.....

Injuries at the QB position

Special teams guys asked to play starters minutes

Guys off the street playing special teams

 

FOR CHRIST SAKE......can we see what a healthy team will do?

[Pete]

The Giants beat the Bills in SB 25 with a journeyman at QB, a retread at RB, bad WRS and CBs because they dominated at the line of scrimmage

the Giants secondary beat the sh-- out of the Pats WR's! Watch the Superbowl again- the Giants secondary play was brilliant!

[Bill from NYC]

Okay, now I'm fully in spinning-off-on-a-tangent mode...

 

Giants defense in the Super Bowl (starters in bold):

DE - Strahan (#2), Umenyiora (#2), Tuck (#3)

DT - Cofield (#4), Robbins (#2 MIN), Alford (#3)

LB - Pierce (UDFA Redskins), Mitchell (#2 KC), Torbor (#4), Blackburn (UDFA), Wilkinson (#3)

CB - Ross (#1), Webster (#2), Madison (#2 MIA), Dockery (UDFA), McQuarters (#1 SF)

S - Wilson (#5), Butler (UDFA), Johnson (#7)

 

(NOTE: DE/OLB Matthias Kiwanuka, #1-2006, was on IR.)

 

High picks at CB and DE, mid-rounders and free-agent signings at DT and LB (other than Kiwi), and basically ignoring S. So... when talking about teams that build through drafting linemen high (Pats* first and foremost), should the Giants really be part of the discussion? Is their draft strategy that much different than Buffalo's, or did they merely draft better players at the same position?

 

To compare:

DT - McCargo (#1-2005), Stroud (#1-2001 JAX), KWilliams (#5-2006), SJohnson (UDFA MIN)

DE - Schobel (#2-2001), Denney (#2-2002), Kelsay (#2-2003), Ellis (#3-2008)

LB - Crowell (#3-2003), Posluszny (#2-2007), Mitchell (#2 KC), Ellison (#6-2006), DiGiorgio (UDFA)

CB - McKelvin (#1-2008), McGee (#4-2003), Greer (UDFA), James (#3-2001 NYG), Corner (#4-2008), Cox (#7-2008)

 

Forgetting Whittner are we?

 

Lori, I actually did see a superbowl championship team on which their most dominating defensive unit was the secondary. This would of course be the 77 Raiders. I know that you are quite familiar with this team.

 

What set them apart was that they had perhaps the very best OL ever, and great players at offensive skill positions to boot. Because their OL was SO dominant, it didn't really matter much who carried the football, and a well protected Stabler was able to throw to Hall of Famers such as Biletnokoff and Casper (who blocked like a LT). Branch was something like a 9.3 sprinter on the other side. This team won by keeping the ball away from their opponents, and punishing them.

Yet, as good as they were, they only sneaked in that 1 time between the 4 Steeler Super Bowl wins, I think because of the Steelers defensive front. Joe Greene was probably the best DT ever, and Holmes couldn't be moved. They occupied blockers, so Greenwood and White could rush the passer. Their OL was probably the next best thing to the Raiders as well. These teams dominated the league for 5 years or so, and they did so primarily because of their lines.

 

Imo, things are not much different today. Teams who build and fortify great lines will win. Teams who chase 1st round dbs and groom them for other teams will lose. I would not put a coat of wax on a car with a flat tire, ya know?

[Chilly]

Bill, teams that are strong all around are the teams that win.

 

The Pats* have had some great DBs as part of their run. The Giants had a strong secondary last year. The Steelers had Clark, McFadden, Polamalu, Taylor, Townshend - another strong secondary. The Bucs had Ronde Barber, Brian Kelly, John Lynch, Jermaine Phillips, Dwight Smith, Corey Ivy.

 

Almost all of the teams that have won the past several super bowls have been solid all around, not just on the lines Bill.

 

Teams that build solid, well-rounded teams are the teams that win championships.

[Bill from NYC]

Bill, teams that are strong all around are the teams that win.

 

The Pats* have had some great DBs as part of their run. The Giants had a strong secondary last year. The Steelers had Clark, McFadden, Polamalu, Taylor, Townshend - another strong secondary. The Bucs had Ronde Barber, Brian Kelly, John Lynch, Jermaine Phillips, Dwight Smith, Corey Ivy.

 

Almost all of the teams that have won the past several super bowls have been solid all around, not just on the lines Bill.

 

Teams that build solid, well-rounded teams are the teams that win championships.

 

It might not seem as such, but I really do know this.

 

Look at it this way as well.....putting aside the numerous free agents/late round pick in the last 3 offseasons, no less than 5 of our first 12 draft picks (including a #8 and #11) have been defensive backs. Was that really necessary? Is that the proper way for a cold weather team to allocate it's best resources? Could we have filled the secondary with later round picks?

Everybody loves Butler, and he was a 5th. I think that could be done in the secondary too, without constantly chasing 1st round defensive backs. When we take a first round safety in 09, will that be excessive. Is there any reasonable limit as to what we devote to the def. backfield?

[Sisyphean Bills]

Some data:

 

The Bills have drafted at least 1 DB in their first 4 picks in every draft for the last decade except for 2. (They should have drafted a CB instead of Losman. ) There have only been 4 drafts in the last 22 years where one of the top 4 picks was not a DB. With Jauron, the Bills have drafted 5/12 DBs in those prime team-building picks.

[Chilly]

It might not seem as such, but I really do know this.

 

Look at it this way as well.....putting aside the numerous free agents/late round pick in the last 3 offseasons, no less than 5 of our first 12 draft picks (including a #8 and #11) have been defensive backs. Was that really necessary? Is that the proper way for a cold weather team to allocate it's best resources? Could we have filled the secondary with later round picks?

Everybody loves Butler, and he was a 5th. I think that could be done in the secondary too, without constantly chasing 1st round defensive backs. When we take a first round safety in 09, will that be excessive. Is there any reasonable limit as to what we devote to the def. backfield?

 

Of course there is a reasonable limit, which I believe has been reached. The only thing that would be acceptable to me is if Ko Simpson is a complete bust this year, the Bills don't sign a good FA FS, and a FS is the best player available at whenever the Bills pick next year, a highly unlikely scenario. Otherwise, I think the DB depth and positions are pretty well set.

[Geno Smith's Arm]

I posted this elsewhere, but it applies:

 

People on this thread, and the board in general keep bitching about the positions of the players the Bills draft. I don't think that has been their biggest problem. The Problem has been the PLAYERS they have drafted in the past decade.

 

Erik Flowers should be in the prime of his career, a team leader that raises the standards and sets the tone for the team.

Mike Williams should just be entering his prime, a fixture at left tackle, with a Pro Bowl under his belt.

JP Losman should be the face of the franchise, 30 TD's a season.

Willis McGahee should be entering his prime, 1500 yards a season with another 500 receiving.

Josh reed should at least be a solid #2 receiver.

 

None of this happened.

And I don't think any of those guys would have had careers like that on ANY team (in other words, even a team that spent their top picks on OL wouldn't make JP a star, Josh Reed would be marginal if he was on the Colts.

Erik Flowers would blow, even if he played for the Ravens.

Mike Williams.....

 

It's mainly the PLAYERS not the positions.

 

Hopefully Mckelvin is a great player.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Hopefully Mckelvin is a great player.

...for some other team.

 

Sorry.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

From what I've heard about McKelvin, the guy hits like Antoine Winfield. If that's the case, I'll be happy. We've been missing out on physical corner play since AW left town. Clements was a puss-o-rama.