erynthered Posted April 26, 2008 Posted April 26, 2008 Did I respond to myself and say that was cute???? Or did I respond to your immature "idiot" response and say that was cute (kind of like a little kid trying to act all growed up!)???? You'll have to go back and look, you seem ever so capable of going back and reposting what people have said. Good luck with that! Been drinking?
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 26, 2008 Posted April 26, 2008 Without knowing the whole story because none of us were there, I can say that if you pull your gun out and fire, you intend to kill the other person. Whether that takes 1 shot or 50 is irrelevant. If my life is in danger because someone is trying to run me over with their car I will fire until the car stops or I am unable to fire any more. People see too many movies where a guy drops after one shot or flies backwards into a pile. Drugged out criminals have been known to continue an attack after receiving mortal wounds. And this applied to the other two dicks? ?? Why did they fire 4 and 2? I understand that these cops are fighting for their freedom, so they can't exactly come clean... Especially the one that unloaded his weapon.
HereComesTheReignAgain Posted April 26, 2008 Posted April 26, 2008 And this applied to the other two dicks? ?? Why did they fire 4 and 2? I understand that these cops are fighting for their freedom, so they can't exactly come clean... Especially the one that unloaded his weapon. So how many shots are you allowed to fire in self defense? If the guy trying to run you over lives through the first few shots does he win the right to kill you? Again, I don't pretend to know the situation (unlike you and others calling the cops "dicks") but the amount of shots has nothing to do with the validity of a self defense shooting.
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 26, 2008 Posted April 26, 2008 So how many shots are you allowed to fire in self defense? If the guy trying to run you over lives through the first few shots does he win the right to kill you? Again, I don't pretend to know the situation (unlike you and others calling the cops "dicks") but the amount of shots has nothing to do with the validity of a self defense shooting. They are detectives... Slang for that is: dick. Maybe you should rethink about who is being open minded? They are in this mess because the one rattled off 50 shots and the others didn't. I never made any judgement about where they should be. I don't know the case, but I can say they are in a world of hurt because of one's poor judgement.
HereComesTheReignAgain Posted April 26, 2008 Posted April 26, 2008 I don't know the case, but I can say they are in a world of hurt because of one's poor judgement. Is it possible that they are alive because of one's good judgement?
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 26, 2008 Posted April 26, 2008 Is it possible that they are alive because of one's good judgement? Highly unlikely... Big what if... FACT: One UNARMED guy is dead because of poor judgement. IMO, overagression... If the one fires what the others did, it is a slam dunk for an aquittal.
Phil Indablanc Posted April 26, 2008 Posted April 26, 2008 Call it a dance... But, cops have created a bad PR problem... Some people mistrust them to the 10th degree... Like my friend, that honestly thought the cops were going to kill him as he sat in the back of the police crusier that night he got pulled over for "reverse headlights/beams". He will tell you straight up that he didn't want to die that way and would have done anything to fight back... Even, GASP! Take on the police... What? They should continue as normal? Who do you think should change? You may live in a different situation Eryn, who knows? Yes. Cops have a bad PR problem which in some cases they have created but mostly have not. Hospitals have the same PR problem buuuuuuuuuuuuut that is because sometimes people die there. Nobody gets hit by a bus and gets taken to the mall and nobody committing a crime gets confronted by a team of accountants. Were that the case malls and accountants would have a very bad PR problem.
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 26, 2008 Posted April 26, 2008 Yes. Cops have a bad PR problem which in some cases they have created but mostly have not. Hospitals have the same PR problem buuuuuuuuuuuuut that is because sometimes people die there. Nobody gets hit by a bus and gets taken to the mall and nobody committing a crime gets confronted by a team of accountants. Were that the case malls and accountants would have a very bad PR problem. Is it JUST because people die there or is it because they charge too much, then die there? Anyway... Why is this 180 degrees opposite with regards to some communites and how do you change it? Firing 50 rounds from your weapon while your partners fired substantially less adds greatly to the problem. Again, how do you fix it?
HereComesTheReignAgain Posted April 26, 2008 Posted April 26, 2008 Highly unlikely... Big what if... FACT: One UNARMED guy is dead because of poor judgement. IMO, overagression... If the one fires what the others did, it is a slam dunk for an aquittal. Hypothetical situation...Both of us happen to be walking down a street when 2 drugged up criminals aproach with knives drawn and threaten to slice us up. They start to advance and you drop to the ground in the fetal position and whimper. I decide to draw my licensed firearm and put 4 rounds into each guy killing them and saving our lives. Did I commit a crime because you chose not to fight back with the same response as me? I mean after all, Exiled didn't feel the need to pump 4 shots into these guys (one of which was going to his adorable son's birthday party in the morning, complete with sad picture in the paper) so why should I have felt the need for such "excessive force". And again, a vehicle is considered a weapon if being driven at someone so the guy was NOT UNARMED. There was a case in Rochester recently where a 14 year old criminal was killed by Police while he was attempting to run them over. We heard the same BS about how the kid was "unarmed" and they should have just shot out the tires. When you feel your life is in danger, you either defend yourself with whatever force is necessary, flee, or die. I'm not a fast guy and I like being alive.
KD in CA Posted April 26, 2008 Author Posted April 26, 2008 FACT: One UNARMED guy is dead because of poor judgement. Correct. Bad judgement on the part of the unarmed dead guy. Assaulting cops with a motor vehicle at 4am in a sh--ty part of town isn't exercising much judgement.
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 26, 2008 Posted April 26, 2008 Correct. Bad judgement on the part of the unarmed dead guy. Assaulting cops with a motor vehicle at 4am in a sh--ty part of town isn't exercising much judgement. I would agree... Bad judgement on his part too... Bad judgement all the way around. Then again, the taxpayers aren't going to pay as much for his bad judgement... Heck, has he ever been trained not to make bad judgement calls? Oh, well.
KD in CA Posted April 27, 2008 Author Posted April 27, 2008 I would agree... Bad judgement on his part too... Bad judgement all the way around. Then again, the taxpayers aren't going to pay as much for his bad judgement... Who says there was bad judgment all the way around? Where was the detectives' bad judgment? It's unfortunate that someone died, but that doesn't mean the police erred in judgement. The officers were under attack by a man with a 4,000 lb weapon and took appropriate action to stop him. Maybe detox or Bill can clarify this, but I have always been under the impression that if officers decide to fire their weapons, they are generally going to ensure that their target is down before they stop shooting. The people whining about '50 shots' seem to think that cops are going to fire off 3 or 4 shots and then stop to ask how everyone is doing. Heck, has he ever been trained not to make bad judgment calls? Perhaps you should ask his parents. Mine taught me not to attack cops at 4am outside of shady bars.
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 27, 2008 Posted April 27, 2008 Who says there was bad judgment all the way around? Where was the detectives' bad judgment? It's unfortunate that someone died, but that doesn't mean the police erred in judgement. The officers were under attack by a man with a 4,000 lb weapon and took appropriate action to stop him. Maybe detox or Bill can clarify this, but I have always been under the impression that if officers decide to fire their weapons, they are generally going to ensure that their target is down before they stop shooting. The people whining about '50 shots' seem to think that cops are going to fire off 3 or 4 shots and then stop to ask how everyone is doing. Perhaps you should ask his parents. Might taught me not to attack cops at 4am outside of shady bars. 50 or so shots when your fellow dicks find the need for 4 and 2... Okay, okay, the ones firing a few rounds showed poor judgement... And it is the exact opposite many times... Many people will tell you that they'd rather attack (and possibly die) then die at the hands of shady cops by not attacking... Of course that was not what I was taught, I was taught that cops were good... I never had a cop use bad judgement against me, even if I did mistep. I take there is a whole 'nother perspective to this KD and I would like to here it from others on the board... Perferably what African-American board members have to say (not about this case, but how police treatment is perceived.).
mcjeff215 Posted April 27, 2008 Posted April 27, 2008 http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080426/D909P8SG0.html Oh look, the race crowd has found a way to jump in. One of the cops was white, so I guess it's a racial thing. Good lord, is it just me or is the over level of stupidity getting higher and higher? These people are shouting 'Kill the Police' for Christ's sake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell Guy sounds like a real winner. Arrested for selling crack twice, and firearms possession. Yet all we hear about is some poor guy getting smoked by some evil police officers on the day of his wedding. Let's put more pictures of his fiance up so the police look cold and uncaring, just stick that record of his back in the desk drawer. You know, I feel quite bad for his family. He very well could have been trying to turn his life around. I'd like to donate to help those kids go to college. I'd like to send his fiance flowers. I can't imagine what she is going through. I thought 50 rounds sounded high at first myself, but I just don't know enough about the case. If the car was dead stopped and he kept pounding rounds in? Yeah, that's excess. If the car kept coming? Fire until it stops. I just don't know enough to comment really. The surprising thing? The blatant disrespect for police officers. They're human. The vast majority want to do a good job, just like "we" do, at work. You'll get the occasional head case, just like you'll get the occasional middle manager on a power trip. The energy is much better spent on keeping that head-case percentage down through training and support. This *one* shooter may very well be the world's biggest tool, but stop with the ridiculous generalizations. Remember that the overwhelming majority of these guys are truly there for the good. Remember what they go through and what they see. People tend to forget that these are the people showing up to fatal accidents, nasty domestic disputes, and generally living in the bowels of society for 8 hours or so a day. Finally, I've not known one respectable law-abiding person to be harassed. Not once and not repeatedly. It's always the guy with the beat up old scrap car, one working headlight, an 'I Love BEER' bumper sticker, pounding down the road 75 in a 55. He gets busted? It's harassment! Abuse of power! Police brutality! If that's harassment, I hope these guys get out there and harass more innocent people. I've a lot of police in my extended family. They very much want to do what's right. Talk to one some time.
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 27, 2008 Posted April 27, 2008 Finally, I've not known one respectable law-abiding person to be harassed. That would make a great poll! Like I said last night, my co-worker last night and tonight would beg to differ with you. Like I told the story he relayed about being harassed years ago... Not for having one headlight and a beater, just for having the beams reversed... Is there a law against haviing your low beams on the in the middle opposed to the outside config? The cops stopped him and the one began shouting: "Effing n***ers! What's those headlights supposed to mean?! What's those phucking headlights supposed to mean!?" The other cop was the one that ran his name and seen he had come up clean... My friend was in the back of the police cruiser and thought they were gonna take him somehere and kill him... He says, if that was gonna happen he would have done anything to fight his way out, even if it meant certain death! They let him go, so my friend had to pick up all the stuff the one officer rummaged out of his vehicle... This incident all in plain view of others while on the street. He will also tell you the story of how he grew up in the projects down the road from here (work) (Altgeld Gardens) and how he got a job in the late 1970's here at the lock... Starting out back then he made good money for a young man (over 10 bucks an hour) and was able to affford nicer things... The cops would come in and harass him for being a drug dealer... He still works here, has a family of three children and the same wife for the last 20 +years... He is African-American. He could probably go into a ton of more stories, ESPECIALLY WHEN HE HAS BEEN OUT WITH HIS FAMILY. As a white male I just can't begin to know what it must be like. Come visit me someday around 130th street here on the South Side.
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 27, 2008 Posted April 27, 2008 Just pulled the Wiki for Altgeld: The Gardens Interseting: "It was built to satistfy the need for African American veterans returning from World War II and was originally owned by the federal government, but was granted to the Chicago Housing Authority in 1956." "11 miles of them are unfit for human consumption and recreation, though many residents still fish in them citing that “something’s going to kill them anyway.” I got two near the dam right now... There are some 50 pounders in them waters!
mcjeff215 Posted April 27, 2008 Posted April 27, 2008 That would make a great poll! Like I said last night, my co-worker last night and tonight would beg to differ with you. Like I told the story he relayed about being harassed years ago... Not for having one headlight and a beater, just for having the beams reversed... Is there a law against haviing your low beams on the in the middle opposed to the outside config? The cops stopped him and the one began shouting: "Effing n***ers! What's those headlights supposed to mean?! What's those phucking headlights supposed to mean!?" The other cop was the one that ran his name and seen he had come up clean... My friend was in the back of the police cruiser and thought they were gonna take him somehere and kill him... He says, if that was gonna happen he would have done anything to fight his way out, even if it meant certain death! They let him go, so my friend had to pick up all the stuff the one officer rummaged out of his vehicle... This incident all in plain view of others while on the street. He will also tell you the story of how he grew up in the projects down the road from here (work) (Altgeld Gardens) and how he got a job in the late 1970's here at the lock... Starting out back then he made good money for a young man (over 10 bucks an hour) and was able to affford nicer things... The cops would come in and harass him for being a drug dealer... He still works here, has a family of three children and the same wife for the last 20 +years... He is African-American. He could probably go into a ton of more stories, ESPECIALLY WHEN HE HAS BEEN OUT WITH HIS FAMILY. As a white male I just can't begin to know what it must be like. Come visit me someday around 130th street here on the South Side. I believe you, I just have a hard time believing this stuff is as rampant as "most cops" would allude to (not you, someone else said that). I'm certain it's happened before and will happen again. Your coworker sounds like a very respectable guy, no reason to doubt offhand.
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 27, 2008 Posted April 27, 2008 I believe you, I just have a hard time believing this stuff is as rampant as "most cops" would allude to (not you, someone else said that). I'm certain it's happened before and will happen again. Your coworker sounds like a very respectable guy, no reason to doubt offhand. See that is the thing... I don't have reason to doubt him either... Yet, there is always misteps made that gets one into trouble or a reactionary reply from the officers... No doubt my friend made a mistep (driving around with lights that looked like it conveyed a gang affiliation... Just because he thought it was a neat thing to do) Obviously, this cop thought he was doing something with gang symbols... Did it warrant his reaction? No... But, there were a lot of people who witnessed it on the street... Then the cop has to prove (crazy as it sounds) that they are in control... What they do is the worst possible thing, then that cop's reaction spreads like wildfire through the community that witnessed his bad judgement. It is all about "saving face" with some... The problems grow. Am I as a white male given more latitude or more of a benefit of the doubt when I make a mistep vs less latitude when an African-American misteps?... One has got to be dreaming if they truly think they are given equal latitude. Hey look... I see one MTL fan flipping a police car after a FIRST ROUND SERIES WIN and I think all MTL fans are tools! Some things just put people over the edge.
DC Tom Posted April 28, 2008 Posted April 28, 2008 FACT: One UNARMED guy is dead because of poor judgement. Unarmed? I thought the guy had a car...
dib Posted April 28, 2008 Posted April 28, 2008 Is it JUST because people die there or is it because they charge too much, then die there? Anyway... Why is this 180 degrees opposite with regards to some communites and how do you change it? Firing 50 rounds from your weapon while your partners fired substantially less adds greatly to the problem. Again, how do you fix it? I would say spend more time at the range.
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