SilverNRed Posted October 17, 2004 Posted October 17, 2004 Firstly, Moore has spoken here in Ausitn, TX twice over the last two years, and the experince here was much different than what you describe. At both events, there were Moore detractors who spoke out, and in both instances, he addressed them respectufully. 73150[/snapback] Last time around the University gave him $50,000. For that kind of money, he can afford to be respectful to the people who call him out on being a liar and an opportunist. Every time he leaves the country he badmouths it abroad, but don't you dare question his patriotism.......
alg Posted October 17, 2004 Posted October 17, 2004 Well you've painted that with a very broad brush. So drugs that reduce cholesterol by 50%, lower blood pressure or reduce the halucinations of schizophrenia are worthless? There are plenty of drugs that extend life and improve the quality of life. What about chemotherapy? Worthless? I have my own personal experiences to draw from, including my wife's battle with breast cancer, which she has won...and my high blood pressure, which is being treated very nicely. Sure the drug companies make profits, that's what they are in business for. What company would exist if they didn't make profits? Do you know what the budgets are for research? My company spends $7.9 billion a year. Do you know how long it takes to develop a drug? More than 10 years from discovery to the market. You want to talk about prices? Have you heard that pharmacies mark up the prices of some generic drugs up to 2000%? Not one penny of that goes to the drug companies. I work for a large drug company, doing research in psychotherapeutics. I hope that what I do can make a breakthrough to better treat people who are suffering from debilitating diseases, not line my own pockets. It's an incredibly difficult job, with more failures than advances. The people who do the research really want to help and most feel this is a noble endeavor. But unfortunately, more often we are treated as if we're big tobacco...and in my opinion, that's just sad. 72553[/snapback] First of all let me say that yes, I am painting with a wide brush - given the forum. Let me also say that I do not discount the importance and efficacy of all drugs. Nor do I doubt that many in the industry beleive that they are making important contributions. As to some of your specifics: 1."What about chemotherapy? Worthless?" I watched 2 people die on chemo and believe that all it did was make death faster and more certain. So yes, I believe chemo is one of the great lies of the health industry. I would not take chemo under any circumstance, and have actually sat at a table of doctors (including 1-2 oncologists ) who said the same dang thing. What does that tell you? That your wife survived BC, thank God, does not tell the whole story. I believe we able capable of healing in spit of chemo. I have friends who have gone thru this who believe that everyone reacts differently and some things work for some but not others. I can accept that, but when did the medical community start offering wholeistic alternatives? Maybe just, because of the growing evidence of the failure of drug regimenes and increasing support of alternative medicine. 2. "My company spends $7.9 billion a year." Your company spends $7.9 billion a year searching for patentable cures to make a profit. Is profit in and of itself bad? No way. When drug companies cross-sell drugs for unintended conditions? That do not really work? Hell yeah, that's the very definition of evil. 3. "I work for a large drug company, doing research in psychotherapeutics." No doubt many good things have come of such research. But many bad things have as well. We have a bunch of drugged out kids and babies in this country, and adults for that matter, who have been given a pill to make things nice. Life isn't always about being easy or nice, and much evidence is surfacing that prozac and other drugs have actually been the source of suicidal and/or homicidal behavior. Columbine anyone? No disrepect intended NG, but the profit motive moves men in strange ways, and often in the exact opposite direction of the evidence.
alg Posted October 17, 2004 Posted October 17, 2004 The Vioxx situation is very important to see where the situation goes. It was prescribed to a lot of people for whom it wasn't intended. Now you have a set of patients for whom Vioxx was the only option, who won't get it. 72566[/snapback] Don't blame the doctors for this one. Yes, I am painfully aware of the fact that many "specialists" are not aware of current research - that is my personal experience. But they prescribe these drugs for the same reason they did for the intended uses. Marketing. Do you know how many lobster dinners and Carribean junkets the drug companies had to poney up to get them to use their stuff in the 1st place? Now just imagine how profitable it will be if they can come up with even more 'uses' for those drugs without the upfront R&D. A whole new lobster and cruise tour...
GG Posted October 17, 2004 Posted October 17, 2004 . Life isn't always about being easy or nice, and much evidence is surfacing that prozac and other drugs have actually been the source of suicidal and/or homicidal behavior. Columbine anyone? No disrepect intended NG, but the profit motive moves men in strange ways, and often in the exact opposite direction of the evidence. 73459[/snapback] And that is another broad brushstroke. You cannot make an overgeneralization that highlight the downsides without acknowledging that the upside. Such as pulling Vioxx when it's deadly for a very small number of people, and is the only thing that will help a larger number of people. You cannot present an argument by highlighting one group, while ignoring a larger group of beneficiaries. Until someone can come up with a better mouse trap, profit is the best option we have right now to move men/women in the direction that will benefit the most.
alg Posted October 17, 2004 Posted October 17, 2004 The proble with these herbs, etc. is that they are not tested for side effects, the amountof any active ingredient (if any) in the pills containing these herbs varies widely, and the manufacturing process is not tightly regulated, so contamination is not uncommon.72641[/snapback] Agreed. Many a waco selling second rate stuff. That does not mean, however, that the underlying principles are incorrect. Natural remidies also generally have this wonderful side benefit of not undermining our health 10-30 years down the road.
alg Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 And that is another broad brushstroke. You cannot make an overgeneralization that highlight the downsides without acknowledging that the upside. Such as pulling Vioxx when it's deadly for a very small number of people, and is the only thing that will help a larger number of people. You cannot present an argument by highlighting one group, while ignoring a larger group of beneficiaries. Until someone can come up with a better mouse trap, profit is the best option we have right now to move men/women in the direction that will benefit the most. 73487[/snapback] Again, given the format I am using broad strokes. Perhaps you are right, but I would suggest that you are wrong in more cases then not. And it is not so important that I am 100% right in this discusion. It is important for me, I feel, to share my research and experience as a wake up call to those who have not looked outside the conventional AMA/pharm box. Stuff/knowledge is changing dramatically, and everyone needs to begin the process of becoming proactive in their own health care issues. With what I know now, I will never again turn my health over to someone else - regardless of fancy titles. Find out about what ails you. Compare the research from many sources. Hell, try reading the research. You will be amazed at what you find. Just don't believe everything you hear. Once you discover some of the 'truisms' that have not made it into the public awareness, you will feel liberating and unafraid.
GG Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 Again, given the format I am using broad strokes. Perhaps you are right, but I would suggest that you are wrong in more cases then not. And it is not so important that I am 100% right in this discusion. It is important for me, I feel, to share my research and experience as a wake up call to those who have not looked outside the conventional AMA/pharm box. Stuff/knowledge is changing dramatically, and everyone needs to begin the process of becoming proactive in their own health care issues. With what I know now, I will never again turn my health over to someone else - regardless of fancy titles. Find out about what ails you. Compare the research from many sources. Hell, try reading the research. You will be amazed at what you find. Just don't believe everything you hear. Once you discover some of the 'truisms' that have not made it into the public awareness, you will feel liberating and unafraid. 73508[/snapback] And here you nailed it right on the head. It always boils down to the basics of Adam Smith's brilliance - you should not rely on the benevolence of the baker to get your meal, but understanding of his self-interest. In the healthcare, or anywhere else, you have access to vast amounts of information that you need to sort out for your benefit vs the benefit of the provider.
DC Tom Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 Life isn't always about being easy or nice, and much evidence is surfacing that prozac and other drugs have actually been the source of suicidal and/or homicidal behavior. 73459[/snapback] ...written by someone who clearly does not understand the issue. Show me a case where an SSRI was "the source of suicidal behavior", and I'll show you a case where the underlying condition for which the drug was prescribed was a source of suicidal behavior" that involved either improper prescribing or improper monitoring by the prescribing physician. Christ...that's what I love about this board. People spout off about things they know nothing about, and accuse anyone who knows more of being a shill.
UConn James Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 ... either improper prescribing or improper monitoring by the prescribing physician. 73720[/snapback] From everything I've heard, read and personally experienced about this, improper or unecessary prescribing is probably one of the bigger problems in mental health care. Don't get me wrong, some people need the meds, but for others, alternative therapies can work. I've seen examples of both. Goes into our whole line of thought that a solution comes in the form of a little capsule. This same line of thought has teachers and parents going to doctors with claims of ADHD b/c a kid has behavior control problems. Put 'em on Ritalin, that's the cure! Is this b/c of pressure from drug companies on doctors to drum up sales? I'm not absolutely cynical about this, but sometimes it's hard not to be. Especially when their ads are running on TV 24/7.
Buftex Posted October 18, 2004 Author Posted October 18, 2004 Last time around the University gave him $50,000. For that kind of money, he can afford to be respectful to the people who call him out on being a liar and an opportunist. Every time he leaves the country he badmouths it abroad, but don't you dare question his patriotism....... 73335[/snapback] I don't know how much money he actually received to speak at UT, I will take your word that it was 50 grand. Don't leave out the fact that all of that money was donated to an independant filmmakers fund. Moore contributed that money to two different documentaries being made here in Texas. Seems like some of you Moore bashers have as much bind hate as you accuse him of. Like him though, you sometimes skewer your facts to make your point. BTW, so criticizing America is now considered un-patriotic? Some of the greatest patriots in history were activists who sought to change the stats quo. I will remember that every time GW pulls out the "we have differences of opinions, but that is what makes this country so great" cliche!
Wham Rocks Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 Michael Moore is a snake and a liar! Death to all liberals!
alg Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 Christ...that's what I love about this board. People spout off about things they know nothing about, and accuse anyone who knows more of being a shill. 73720[/snapback] Actually you have it backwords. The ones usually spouting off are the ones overly confident in their myopic views. A case of not seeing the forest thru the trees. I spoke to a doctor last year who was equally agitated with me, and insisted my wife re-start the meds I had encouraged her to discontinue. This after telling me how well she was doing. He was indignint that a laymen would question his great learning. Much as yourself. He went on to say that there were other issues that required the drugs. Ones that were serious but naturally occuring in our age braket, ones that had no cure. He could not fathom that I challenged him on all counts. What good is learning when you see life thru the darkness of disease? Two weeks later my wife received a letter stating that she in fact did not have any other condition, and the one she did have was markedly improved. You see, I am not writing this for my benefit, but for people such as yourself that hold such arrogance around the subject that they cannot see outside their small range of understanding. For example the folowing "...written by someone who clearly does not understand the issue. Show me a case where an SSRI was "the source of suicidal behavior", and I'll show you a case where the underlying condition for which the drug was prescribed was a source of suicidal behavior" that involved either improper prescribing or improper monitoring by the prescribing physician." is so much stevestojan that I do not know where to begin. You bandy about a statement that sounds more significant then it is, but with no clue as to underlying causes of health. You are so focused on the small bead of truth that you "own" that you have paralized your capacity to actually ask the right questions. So before insulting someone else, which I have maticulously avoided until now, you may ask yourself on what planet does the issue of "improper prescribing or improper monitoring" actually come before having a clue what is wrong with someone? What went wrong? I don't want your " proper prescribing or monitoring". I want to stop eating or breathing or doing or feeling whatever the hell it is that's causing the f#@king problem in the first place. That is a concept that seems to allude all too many. So kick back and lecture us about the wonders of your drugs that only seem to go wrong when other "learned" medical practitioners give it to the wrong people, or when they forget to set their egg timers for quality and performance. You can't because the whole field of which you speak, above all others, is just now moving beyond the practice of leaching... alg
DC Tom Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 From everything I've heard, read and personally experienced about this, improper or unecessary prescribing is probably one of the bigger problems in mental health care. Don't get me wrong, some people need the meds, but for others, alternative therapies can work. I've seen examples of both. Goes into our whole line of thought that a solution comes in the form of a little capsule. This same line of thought has teachers and parents going to doctors with claims of ADHD b/c a kid has behavior control problems. Put 'em on Ritalin, that's the cure! Is this b/c of pressure from drug companies on doctors to drum up sales? I'm not absolutely cynical about this, but sometimes it's hard not to be. Especially when their ads are running on TV 24/7. 73757[/snapback] Having received more improperly prescribed drugs than prescribed ones...I blame HMOs, and the pressure on doctors to fix medical problems as quickly and cheaply as possible. It's a lot more cost-effective for a primary-care-physician to say "You're depressed? Here's a month's worth of Paxil..." than "You're depressed? Here's a referral to a mental health specialist that can properly diagnose the problem and decide on a proper course of treatment." Never mind that prescriving a month's worth of an anti-depressant is ineffective (they take six weeks to show a therapeutic effect) and dangerous without close supervision (how do you, as the doctor, know the patient's not bipolar? How do you know you you won't trigger a suicidal mania?) It's quick, cheap, and has the least impact on the bottom line... The TV ads for prescription drugs I find disgusting, don't get me wrong. Overall, I don't like taking drugs, even though I need them to survive (bipolar disorder...without zoloft and lamictal, I'd be dead. And despite what alg things of my "myopic" views, I am pretty much an expert on this stevestojan. Have to be, since stupid doctors have nearly killed me before with improper prescriptions.) But I think anyone who willingly takes prozac as a weight-loss drug, for example, is an idiot (eat less and exercise, don't !@#$ with your brain chemistry). There's a LOT I disagree with in the medical industry...but the breathtakingly narrow criticism of "Drugs bad, because drug companies greedy" from dandelion-tea-drinking overgeneralizing elitists who don't know the difference between anecdotal and scientific evidence and who see fit to offer "medical" advice when being unable themselves to diagnose a friggin' hangnail isn't a criticism I particularly buy into.
DC Tom Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 is so much stevestojan that I do not know where to begin. You bandy about a statement that sounds more significant then it is, but with no clue as to underlying causes of health. You are so focused on the small bead of truth that you "own" that you have paralized your capacity to actually ask the right questions. So before insulting someone else, which I have maticulously avoided until now, you may ask yourself on what planet does the issue of "improper prescribing or improper monitoring" actually come before having a clue what is wrong with someone? What went wrong? I don't want your " proper prescribing or monitoring". I want to stop eating or breathing or doing or feeling whatever the hell it is that's causing the f#@king problem in the first place. That is a concept that seems to alluse all too many. 73879[/snapback] Your professional medical opinion, no doubt? And I'm an elitist...because I'm disagreeing with the guy who wants everyone to discard all of the Western scienctific method because his ill-informed opinion. Tell you what: go out and learn what the proper diagnostic and treatment procedures are for major depression and affective disorders (hint: they involve mental health professionals). Then go out and learn what's actually done (hint: it doesn't involve mental health professionals). Then come back and tell me that anti-depressants are the problem. I'll bet Lipitor's a dangerous drug too, because people taking it are more likely to have heart attacks.
alg Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 Your professional medical opinion, no doubt? And I'm an elitist...because I'm disagreeing with the guy who wants everyone to discard all of the Western scienctific method because his ill-informed opinion Nope, didn't say that, and your continuing sarcasm is very counter productive. If you must use it at least be funny. Try irony... Simply said people have failed to see the many shortcoming of the healthcare industry of which there is an abunance - and often with terrible consequences. Scientific understanding is the basis for most of my comments, though you will not read them in your local doctors office, or see them on the phoney drug ads. I acknowledge the contributions, I simply do not worship at the alter of health care. Nor am I an elitist on the subject. I am just one really pissed off customer who found out how much I was being lied to. Someone who started being proactive and educated on the subject. This is my soapbox to warn others of what I found out. No way no how did I want to take precious time away from the rest of my life worring about whether someone else was doing their friggin job. After your last 2 posts I doubt that we actually disagree as much as you profess. You are personally aware of the shortcomings of the "prescription age" and have 1st hand experience w/ a particular disorder. There is much I could say on the particulars (in an anecdotal sort of way of course) but that would be too personal. Suffice to say that you agree with exactly 1/2 of my rant based on your experience with doctors. It is the shortcomings of the pharms where we seem to have our differences. I understand that, with your success in treating a disorder, that you are quite natually protective of your benefactors. Imagine what it would mean, however, if in 50 years science could tell you how it originated, why you experienced it, and what measures that would prevent it. Granted, genetics play a big part, and some things are simply outside our control, but my rant is one, ultimately, of optimism. That we are not just a bag of decease waiting to happen, and that all this stevestojan is out of our control. Oh, and that it is not always enough to find a drug to manage a condition, but to understand its source, prevention and complete elimination. Sure Im no expert on brian chemistry and all, but I know with a certainty that it constantly changes its spots based upon the multitudinal conditions of living. I will never be satisfied with the diagnosis "well, you have this decease." I do know in my experience that we are far from being victims of our condition. And that is really the bottom line here - for people to stop seeing conventional medicine as the final word on anything.
gantrules Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 Something isn't right when I take an application for a mortgage and question what the incentive pay is on the RN/Doctor's pay and they reply "Oh, that is a kickback for perscribing certain meds." Let me tell you something folks. If I pay back realtors for leads on mortgage deals I will go to jail. That's right. It's illegal. But, it's not illegal for pharms to kick back to doctors???
IUBillsFan Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 Something isn't right when I take an application for a mortgage and question what the incentive pay is on the RN/Doctor's pay and they reply "Oh, that is a kickback for perscribing certain meds." Let me tell you something folks. If I pay back realtors for leads on mortgage deals I will go to jail. That's right. It's illegal. But, it's not illegal for pharms to kick back to doctors??? 74554[/snapback] Well I am pretty sure you are wrong at least in Indiana. I am married to a doctor she has NEVER been paid to prescribe any meds. As far as the mort. business you are right but I bet you can tell a realtor give me your business and your clients go to the front of the line...there are always ways to get business that are legal and don't require cash to change hands.
gantrules Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 I know that is a normal transaction in New York. It must be that Indiana is different.
Ray Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 I'm sure Moore will present both sides evenly. Moore is a moron
Ray Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 Something isn't right when I take an application for a mortgage and question what the incentive pay is on the RN/Doctor's pay and they reply "Oh, that is a kickback for perscribing certain meds." Let me tell you something folks. If I pay back realtors for leads on mortgage deals I will go to jail. That's right. It's illegal. But, it's not illegal for pharms to kick back to doctors??? 74554[/snapback] I am a physician and don't know where you get this information. If you have proof that a physician prescribed a certain medication for a "kick-back" that is illegal. I have never known of a physician to do this, ever. I know docs who give out samples that pharmaceutical reps give them but they get nothing in return. The AMA, and every specialty board have something against a practice like that. The pharmaceutical industry and its issues are complex and I guarantee you Michael Moore will not even come close to addressing them fairly. Tufts University which does a nice analysis of medications and what it takes to bring them to market states it takes about $800M just to bring a drug to market--yes that's 800M! Do you know how much research, time, money and effort is spent on drugs that never even make it to market? Unfortunately we subsidize the rest of the world.
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