Tipster19 Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 When you see the likes of a Jared Allen and Dwight Freeney signing contracts in excess of $30+ million in guaranteed money then it makes you think that signing a potential star DE with the #11 pick for less than half of that then economics helps influences this selection also. Last year the #11 pick, LB Patrick Willis, signed a five-year, $16.655 million contract. The deal includes $12 million in guarantees. 2008: $370,000, 2009: $500,000, 2010: $760,000, 2011: $900,000, 2012: $900,000 (Voidable Year), 2013: Free Agent. Keeping in mind that there might be an uncapped year during our #11 pick's contract then it makes it even more lucrative to solidify our DL at this time. Two of our DEs were re-signed to the following contracts. Aaron Schobel signed a seven-year, $50.5 million contract. The deal contains $21 million in guarantees, including Schobel's first four base salaries. 2008: $1.5 million, 2009: $3.5 million, 2010: $6.025 million, 2011-2012: $6.5 million, 2013: $8.5 million, 2014: Free Agent. He'll be 34 years old when we kick-off the 2011 season. Chris Kelsay signed a four-year, $23 million contract. The deal included an $8 million signing bonus and an initial roster bonus of $3 million. 2008: $1.4 million, 2009: $3 million, 2010: $3.7 million, 2011: Free Agent. If Derrick Harvey is still available when we pick at 11 then this should be a slamdunk choice.
Brandon Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 No offense, but that's not a very compelling argument. Any 'star' player is going to cost a fortune when the Bills re-sign him. Just wait until the Bills re-sign Lee Evans, assuming they do.
DreamOnDan Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 It makes me happy that we have 3/4 good DE locked up... Schobel, Kelsay, Denney, Johnson. They can combine for 30 sacks from the DE position. That is a rare commodity in the NFL. Thank goodness that the Bills actually added a dominant DT and finally gave up on the Tripplett experiment. I fully expect this D-line to have 40+ sacks this season if everyone stays healthy and our offense can stay on the field and score points. Awesome stuff!
Tipster19 Posted April 23, 2008 Author Posted April 23, 2008 No offense, but that's not a very compelling argument. Any 'star' player is going to cost a fortune when the Bills re-sign him. Just wait until the Bills re-sign Lee Evans, assuming they do. No offense taken. Look at Freeney and Allen's contracts. We can get a great DE for a fraction of the money. Dwight Freeney signed a six-year, $72 million contract. The deal included a $15 million signing bonus. 2008: $750,000 (+ $15 million option bonus), 2009: $6.22 million, 2010: $8.825 million, 2011: $11.42 million, 2012: $14.035 million, 2013: Free Agent. Cap charges: $5.75 million (2008), $11.22 million (2009), $13.825 million (2010), $16.642 million (2011), $19.035 million (2012). Jared Allen signed a six-year, $73.26 million contract. The deal contains $31 million guaranteed, including a $15.5 million signing bonus. $38.4 million is available in the first three years. 2008: $750,000, 2009: $7.75 million, 2010: $6.38 million (+ $8 million guaranteed-for-injury roster bonus), 2011: $8,979,438, 2012: $11,619,850, 2013: $14,280,612, 2014: Free Agent. Using Patrick Willis' contract as a benchmark plus adding 5% makes Harvey a very inexpensive DE. The kicker would be that he would be signed thru the possible uncapped year (2011).
Brandon Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 No offense taken. Look at Freeney and Allen's contracts. We can get a great DE for a fraction of the money. Dwight Freeney signed a six-year, $72 million contract. The deal included a $15 million signing bonus. 2008: $750,000 (+ $15 million option bonus), 2009: $6.22 million, 2010: $8.825 million, 2011: $11.42 million, 2012: $14.035 million, 2013: Free Agent. Cap charges: $5.75 million (2008), $11.22 million (2009), $13.825 million (2010), $16.642 million (2011), $19.035 million (2012). Jared Allen signed a six-year, $73.26 million contract. The deal contains $31 million guaranteed, including a $15.5 million signing bonus. $38.4 million is available in the first three years. 2008: $750,000, 2009: $7.75 million, 2010: $6.38 million (+ $8 million guaranteed-for-injury roster bonus), 2011: $8,979,438, 2012: $11,619,850, 2013: $14,280,612, 2014: Free Agent. Using Patrick Willis' contract as a benchmark plus adding 5% makes Harvey a very inexpensive DE. The kicker would be that he would be signed thru the possible uncapped year (2011). You can potentially get a great DE for a fraction of the money, but you can say that of any position selected in R1. If they take Devin Thomas, as I believe they will, they'll be paying the contract you describe. On the other hand, look at how much a decent veteran WR like Jerry Porter cost this offseason. 6 years, $30M with $10M guaranteed. Bernard Berrian? 6 years, $42 million, $16 million guaranteed. There's no telling what Lee Evans will sign for. Its a nice way to get a 'bargain' at DE, but its a nice way to get a bargain at any position.
Tipster19 Posted April 24, 2008 Author Posted April 24, 2008 You can potentially get a great DE for a fraction of the money, but you can say that of any position selected in R1. If they take Devin Thomas, as I believe they will, they'll be paying the contract you describe. On the other hand, look at how much a decent veteran WR like Jerry Porter cost this offseason. 6 years, $30M with $10M guaranteed. Bernard Berrian? 6 years, $42 million, $16 million guaranteed. There's no telling what Lee Evans will sign for. Its a nice way to get a 'bargain' at DE, but its a nice way to get a bargain at any position. I don't want to come off as if I'm arguing but I would like to explain my reasoning. I feel that Lee Evans is our star WR and to pay this kind of money to what would be our current #2 WR doesn't seem feasible. I'd rather re-sign Evans to a worthy market adjusted contract. Having two star WRs would be great but not if we have to sacrifice to what I would hope could be our next Bruce Smith type DE.
obie_wan Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 You can potentially get a great DE for a fraction of the money, but you can say that of any position selected in R1. If they take Devin Thomas, as I believe they will, they'll be paying the contract you describe. On the other hand, look at how much a decent veteran WR like Jerry Porter cost this offseason. 6 years, $30M with $10M guaranteed. Bernard Berrian? 6 years, $42 million, $16 million guaranteed. There's no telling what Lee Evans will sign for. Its a nice way to get a 'bargain' at DE, but its a nice way to get a bargain at any position. or we could have signed Bryant Johnson for $2 mil so we had flexibility in drafting a WR
Lurker Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 or we could have signed Bryant Johnson for $2 mil so we had flexibility in drafting a WR Yeah. the league was really beating a path to his door this spring...
Brandon Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 I don't want to come off as if I'm arguing but I would like to explain my reasoning. I feel that Lee Evans is our star WR and to pay this kind of money to what would be our current #2 WR doesn't seem feasible. I'd rather re-sign Evans to a worthy market adjusted contract. Having two star WRs would be great but not if we have to sacrifice to what I would hope could be our next Bruce Smith type DE. If I thought there was a Bruce Smith on the board at 11, I'd say go for it. I don't think Harvey is that type of player, though. As for the WRs, the difference is that I don't classify the second WR as any less important than the #1. It may not be necessary to pick that position in R1, but I don't view it any differently as any other starting position.
Brandon Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 or we could have signed Bryant Johnson for $2 mil so we had flexibility in drafting a WR Coulda, woulda, shoulda...the reality is that we didn't. Of course, as Lurker said, teams weren't exactly beating his door down to sign him, either. Overrated? Looks that way.
LaDairis Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 Watching the SEC last year, it was reasonably apparent that Miss State DE Titus Brown was a better football player than Harvey last year. Harvey has the "potential" to be a very good player. The problem is that he isn't at his "potential" yet, and spending the 11 on a player like that is unjustifiable. If Harvey is there at 11, that will greatly improve the chances of a trade down, a good one. Trade down, get Titus Brown much later, and address all the other needs.
Tcali Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 When you see the likes of a Jared Allen and Dwight Freeney signing contracts in excess of $30+ million in guaranteed money then it makes you think that signing a potential star DE with the #11 pick for less than half of that then economics helps influences this selection also. Last year the #11 pick, LB Patrick Willis, signed a five-year, $16.655 million contract. The deal includes $12 million in guarantees. 2008: $370,000, 2009: $500,000, 2010: $760,000, 2011: $900,000, 2012: $900,000 (Voidable Year), 2013: Free Agent. Keeping in mind that there might be an uncapped year during our #11 pick's contract then it makes it even more lucrative to solidify our DL at this time. Two of our DEs were re-signed to the following contracts. Aaron Schobel signed a seven-year, $50.5 million contract. The deal contains $21 million in guarantees, including Schobel's first four base salaries. 2008: $1.5 million, 2009: $3.5 million, 2010: $6.025 million, 2011-2012: $6.5 million, 2013: $8.5 million, 2014: Free Agent. He'll be 34 years old when we kick-off the 2011 season. Chris Kelsay signed a four-year, $23 million contract. The deal included an $8 million signing bonus and an initial roster bonus of $3 million. 2008: $1.4 million, 2009: $3 million, 2010: $3.7 million, 2011: Free Agent. If Derrick Harvey is still available when we pick at 11 then this should be a slamdunk choice. goodbye schobel and kelsay after 09
LaDairis Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 or we could have signed Bryant Johnson for $2 mil so we had flexibility in drafting a WR Perhaps the objective was to acquire good players, not former First Round flops who don't produce against single coverage by nickel backs. Byrant Johnson sukks, period, that's why he went for that price.
Tonawanda Troy Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 We do need help for our defense with the first pick, You did get that part right. However, I feel we need an impact player at Line Backer. We need the Patrick Willis of this years draft with our #1 pick. i.e. Rivers.
BillsFan Trapped in Pats Land Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 The uncapped year is like the Yeti.....it may exist, but we will never see it
obie_wan Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 Coulda, woulda, shoulda...the reality is that we didn't. Of course, as Lurker said, teams weren't exactly beating his door down to sign him, either. Overrated? Looks that way. overrated as a #1 WR, but he will outproduce whoever the Bills draft as a WR in 2008. The scary thought is the Bills want a potential #1 in a weak draft class because they will let Evans walk.
Orton's Arm Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 No offense, but that's not a very compelling argument. Any 'star' player is going to cost a fortune when the Bills re-sign him. Just wait until the Bills re-sign Lee Evans, assuming they do. It's an argument that's relevant to what's being said about drafting a CB. Many people here are in favor of using a first round pick on a CB, on the theory that you're getting much more bang for your buck this way than would have been the case had you tried to acquire similar CB talent in free agency. But as Tipster pointed out, the same is also true at DE. The difference between the two positions is that the first round CB will be gone after his first contract is over, while the DE might well be signed to an extension.
ax4782 Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 No offense taken. Look at Freeney and Allen's contracts. We can get a great DE for a fraction of the money. Dwight Freeney signed a six-year, $72 million contract. The deal included a $15 million signing bonus. 2008: $750,000 (+ $15 million option bonus), 2009: $6.22 million, 2010: $8.825 million, 2011: $11.42 million, 2012: $14.035 million, 2013: Free Agent. Cap charges: $5.75 million (2008), $11.22 million (2009), $13.825 million (2010), $16.642 million (2011), $19.035 million (2012). Jared Allen signed a six-year, $73.26 million contract. The deal contains $31 million guaranteed, including a $15.5 million signing bonus. $38.4 million is available in the first three years. 2008: $750,000, 2009: $7.75 million, 2010: $6.38 million (+ $8 million guaranteed-for-injury roster bonus), 2011: $8,979,438, 2012: $11,619,850, 2013: $14,280,612, 2014: Free Agent. Using Patrick Willis' contract as a benchmark plus adding 5% makes Harvey a very inexpensive DE. The kicker would be that he would be signed thru the possible uncapped year (2011). That makes one gigantic assumption. That said rookie "star" will come in ane have an immediate impact. Unfortunately, at every position on the field, rookies rarely contribute with all pro numbers. While Derrick Harvey or Quentin Groves have the tools to be good in three years, they are not going to be the monsters in week one that you are assuming.
colin Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 yeah if harvey is as good as allan, freeney or aaron then he is a great 11th overall pick. if he isn't very good not only is he not worth the 11, he won't even be our #3 DE on our team. thomas has a much better chance of being at least our 2nd wr IMO. also, if thomas is a stud he will provide much more for our team than if harvey is a stud.
Tipster19 Posted April 24, 2008 Author Posted April 24, 2008 If I thought there was a Bruce Smith on the board at 11, I'd say go for it. I don't think Harvey is that type of player, though. As for the WRs, the difference is that I don't classify the second WR as any less important than the #1. It may not be necessary to pick that position in R1, but I don't view it any differently as any other starting position. There are more valid WRs early (rds 1-3) than there is DL. We can always trade up in the 1st and 2nd rds for a #2 WR. I do agree that a WR is important for us this to make our offense more effective but at the same time I don't picture us throwing the ball all over the place. I personally would like to see us get back to being a dominant defense again.
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