The Vikings are simply not smart...

[K-9]

Bottom line: Vikes gave up their 2 3rds for an All-Pro DE who, at 26 is just entering his prime. Anyone care to argue that their 1st round pick would have been a better player?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Hazed and Amuzed]

Bottom line: Vikes gave up their 2 3rds for an All-Pro DE who, at 26 is just entering his prime. Anyone care to argue that their 1st round pick would have been a better player?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

I'm sure plenty are willing to argue considering that most people on here know so much more then everyone else.

[LaDairis]

"Now the question is was it too much? Shrug."

 

 

There are two aspects to the cost. The first is the contract. The second is the Draft pick compensation. The latter is the problem. The Draft is the life blood of a decent franchise. If making outrageous deals and paying top dollar for less than top talent worked, the Skins would have some Super Bowls since the first Gibbs era. The price the Vikes paid was absurd even without the character and injury risk.

 

 

"The Vikings defense has been #1 against the run for the last two years..."

 

In part because their DEs were large, strong, and slow, and defended the run much better than they pass rushed. Allen will weaken that. The other reason why they are "#1 against the run" stat-wise is because they play in a division without an elite opposing runner.

 

 

 

"He's shown to be a prolific pass rusher for 4 years, and is young enough to continue to be highly productive for another 4+."

 

Assuming he both stays healthy (pure luck) and stays out of trouble (where there is a decisively negative track record). When you spend more than 10% of your Salary Cap on one player, you ought to be reasonably sure such player will act with intelligence and honor. The risk is high enough that he will get hurt. Teams allow players to leave for reasons.

 

 

 

"so Allen will likely benefit even more by having other threats nearby"

 

Kevin Williams is the best DT in the NFL. Pat Williams is still good but very old and near the end. Off the edge, the Vikes have nobody of the caliber of Tamba Hali. Whether that nets out helping or hurting Allen remains to be seen. Whether Justin Smith plus the First and 2 Thirds plus another $3 mil per year in Cap Space would have been a safer and vastly superior option is a truly pathetic question. Trading picks for the right to pay head cases top dollar is a historically failed strategy.

 

One thing working in Allen's favor is the lack of youth and talent at the OLT position in the NFC North. That talent, however, if it were to stay healthy this year (Clifton, Backus, Tait) is substantially better than the AFC West OLTs Allen faced last year.

[LaDairis]

Bottom line: Vikes gave up their 2 3rds for an All-Pro DE who, at 26 is just entering his prime. Anyone care to argue that their 1st round pick would have been a better player?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

 

That is a typical attempt to compare apples and oranges and completely ignore character and injury. It also simply totals up the "sacks" and nothing else as far as "ranking" Allen. The Vikes' first will likely be an excellent player assuming KC spends it wisely. Any player will be better than Allen if he gets hurt or suspended.

 

Your underlying assumption is that every NFL player is 100% guaranteed to stay healthy and out of trouble. It is like a "puzzle." Just fit the pieces together, the ones with the stats, and presto, Super Bowl here we come. Backups, depth, salary cap, injury and character issues -

 

WWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

What was that which just sailed overhead???

 

 

 

NFL teams work with limited number of dollars and Draft picks. You don't part with an enormous amount of both for one overrated character case.

[K-9]

That is a typical attempt to compare apples and oranges and completely ignore character and injury. It also simply totals up the "sacks" and nothing else as far as "ranking" Allen. The Vikes' first will likely be an excellent player assuming KC spends it wisely. Any player will be better than Allen if he gets hurt or suspended.

 

And any player they would have drafted or that KC drafts will be worse than Allen if THEY get hurt or suspended. I like how your crystal ball only works in reverse.

 

Your underlying assumption is that every NFL player is 100% guaranteed to stay healthy and out of trouble. It is like a "puzzle." Just fit the pieces together, the ones with the stats, and presto, Super Bowl here we come. Backups, depth, salary cap, injury and character issues -

 

My underlying assumption is that the Vikes saw Allen as their defensive piece to put then over the top and were willing to make him their #1 pick and they thought that the 2 3rds was a reasonable price. Anyone who knows sports, especially football, knows that you're ALWAYS one play away from having it all taken away. What, you just discovered that concept?

 

WWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

What was that which just sailed overhead???

 

I don't know. You tell me. Was it anything that made sense?

 

NFL teams work with limited number of dollars and Draft picks. You don't part with an enormous amount of both for one overrated character case.

 

Draft picks are a crapshoot at best. The Vikings felt, justifiably so, to have the bird in the hand. You say he's overrated. I'm waiting to hear that from a pro personnel director. There's a GREAT chance he'll be even better in Minnesota playing with superior defensive personnel. I would wager he will be better even though his sack stats may go down. That has to do more with the scheme Minny employs most of the time. With him in there, they'll be able to employ it even MORE of the time.

 

As to his character, hey if he can't keep himself from drinking his way to another suspension then you can come back and say 'I told you so.' In the meantime, it's just BS. Or, another way of looking at it might be that Bruce Smith himself was just one more toke away from a one-year suspension as well. Glad the Bills didn't freak about HIS character like you would have. Or are you a hypocrite as well?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[LaDairis]

"And any player they would have drafted or that KC drafts will be worse than Allen if THEY get hurt or suspended. I like how your crystal ball only works in reverse."

 

 

For someone so sure the sacks stat tells everything to know about a DE (don't bother watching the other 98% of his plays), you do not seem to understand stats and probability. Having four healthy high character players for the price of one low character player is a much less risky gamble. In the Draft, you get to choose from everyone. In FA/trade, you only get what another team wants to part with.

 

 

 

"Anyone who knows sports, especially football, knows that you're ALWAYS one play away from having it all taken away. What, you just discovered that concept?"

 

Sincerely,

 

Jeff Hostetler

Trent Dilfer

Kurt Warner

Kevin Boss

 

 

 

 

"I'm waiting to hear that from a pro personnel director."

 

because you certainly know better than to trust your own eyes...

[K-9]

For someone so sure the sacks stat tells everything to know about a DE (don't bother watching the other 98% of his plays), you do not seem to understand stats and probability. Having four healthy high character players for the price of one low character player is a much less risky gamble. In the Draft, you get to choose from everyone. In FA/trade, you only get what another team wants to part with.

 

I'm quite familiar with Allan's entire career, thank-you. And when you're able to get your hands on as much NFL game tape then we can have a serious discussion about his other 98% of plays. We agree there's a helluva lot more to a DE's game than sacks. You are making the mistake of assuming that nobody knows that but you. You spout off about stats/probability and then base a large part of your argument on something that CANNOT be quantified statistically: Allen's character. If he screws up then come back and say "I told you so." In the meantime it's just more of your bullsh*t.

 

Damn right you only get to pick what another team wants to part with and in this case KC was willing to part with a CONSENSUS All Pro. What part of the 'bird in the hand' adage DON'T you understand? Quick, tell me which defensive end available at the Vikings slot is going to make All Pro. Thought so.

 

because you certainly know better than to trust your own eyes...

 

Well, we can agree on that. It's just that MY eyes tell me the same things about Allen that they tell the personnel directors around the league. Yours seem to tell you something completely different. I'll go with my own experience and the confidence of those that get paid to make player personnel decisions on a daily basis. You can sit and watch from your two-dimensional TV set and let us all know differently.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Ramius]

I'm quite familiar with Allan's entire career, thank-you. And when you're able to get your hands on as much NFL game tape then we can have a serious discussion about his other 98% of plays. We agree there's a helluva lot more to a DE's game than sacks. You are making the mistake of assuming that nobody knows that but you. You spout off about stats/probability and then base a large part of your argument on something that CANNOT be quantified statistically: Allen's character. If he screws up then come back and say "I told you so." In the meantime it's just more of your bullsh*t.

 

Damn right you only get to pick what another team wants to part with and in this case KC was willing to part with a CONSENSUS All Pro. What part of the 'bird in the hand' adage DON'T you understand? Quick, tell me which defensive end available at the Vikings slot is going to make All Pro. Thought so.

 

 

 

Well, we can agree on that. It's just that MY eyes tell me the same things about Allen that they tell the personnel directors around the league. Yours seem to tell you something completely different. I'll go with my own experience and the confidence of those that get paid to make player personnel decisions on a daily basis. You can sit and watch from your two-dimensional TV set and let us all know differently.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Remember, you are talking to a guy who thinks that justin geiseinger and eric king are pro-bowlers.

[K-9]

Remember, you are talking to a guy who thinks that justin geiseinger and eric king are pro-bowlers.

 

I missed that since I didn't take time to read the entire thread. If he really thinks that then I feel terrible for engaging in the argument. Kind of like how I felt about Benny in 'Of Mice and Men.'

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Ramius]

I missed that since I didn't take time to read the entire thread. If he really thinks that then I feel terrible for engaging in the argument. Kind of like how I felt about Benny in 'Of Mice and Men.'

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

It was a few years back. he trashed the bills fromt office for releasing those players, basically saying them were sure-fire pro-bowlers and the bills front office was a bunch of idiots. As we see now, both of them are tearing it up in tennessee.

 

LaDumbass is also very fond of saying that tall WRs suck because they are tall. I'm shocked he's not advocating the Bills drafting DeSean Jackson.

 

EDIT: and if you back up your opinion with any stats, links, etc, he'll accuse you of "parroting" In LaDumbass' mind, the onyl way to analyze football players is to watch them on TV, and only he knows how to do that. the rest of us are morons who simply parrot what we read or hear.

[LaDairis]

Some people here are still very bitter for being outed as parrots, and watching LaDairis call the Bills Draft picks better than the Bills FO.

 

LaDairis was the one who said Kyle Williams was as good as McCargo. LaDairis was the one who pointed out that the parroting of height and guru reports did not make Martin Nance a good WR. Ramius vehemently disagreed.

 

Hence, after losing his first 131 debates with LaDairis, Ramius brings up Geisinger, a healthy bust, and King, a very good value as a nickel back and a quality player the Bills should not have cut. Both were Second Day picks, rounds 5 and 6. Oh, my, the horrors, one of my 6th rounders ended up a bust. As for the players above him... yeah, not much for Ramius to discuss...

 

LOL!!

[LaDairis]

"You are making the mistake of assuming that nobody knows that but you. You spout off about stats/probability and then base a large part of your argument on something that CANNOT be quantified statistically: Allen's character."

 

We can quantify that Allen's character has been an empirical problem. That you insist that is "BS" and the fact that he is one slip-up from a year long suspension is par for the level of sand blasted beaked idiocy you have bawked out here. You think you "know" Allen's character. You do not.

 

 

 

"In the meantime it's just more of your bullsh*t. "

 

Yeah, his passion for boozing and banging his car is "my fault." Got it...

 

 

 

"KC was willing to part with a CONSENSUS All Pro."

 

LMAO!!!

 

Note the emphasis on "consensus." There was a "consensus" that Robert Gallery was a sure thing OLT.

 

Beaked birdbrains really like the "consensus" stuff. If one guru says something, that means less to a parrot than if a whole bunch of gurus "agree" on a "consensus" like Gallery.

 

Who was the ONLY "Draft Guru" to PAN Gallery and claim Vernon Carey was the #1 OT prospect in 2004?

 

Yeah...

 

That's why Ramius is so obsessed.

 

 

 

Do yourself a favor, doggie. Go in front of a mirror and make sure you still have dog hair, not feathers...

[Ramius]

"You are making the mistake of assuming that nobody knows that but you. You spout off about stats/probability and then base a large part of your argument on something that CANNOT be quantified statistically: Allen's character."

 

We can quantify that Allen's character has been an empirical problem. That you insist that is "BS" and the fact that he is one slip-up from a year long suspension is par for the level of sand blasted beaked idiocy you have bawked out here. You think you "know" Allen's character. You do not.

 

 

 

"In the meantime it's just more of your bullsh*t. "

 

Yeah, his passion for boozing and banging his car is "my fault." Got it...

 

 

 

"KC was willing to part with a CONSENSUS All Pro."

 

LMAO!!!

 

Note the emphasis on "consensus." There was a "consensus" that Robert Gallery was a sure thing OLT.

 

Beaked birdbrains really like the "consensus" stuff. If one guru says something, that means less to a parrot than if a whole bunch of gurus "agree" on a "consensus" like Gallery.

 

Who was the ONLY "Draft Guru" to PAN Gallery and claim Vernon Carey was the #1 OT prospect in 2004?

 

Yeah...

 

That's why Ramius is so obsessed.

 

 

 

Do yourself a favor, doggie. Go in front of a mirror and make sure you still have dog hair, not feathers...

 

Yawn. your moron schtick was old 2 years ago, and its old again now.You still dont have the faintest clue of what you are talking about. All you are doing is parroting.

 

Bwwwwwaaaak!

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

Jared Allen was in no way a finisher. Of his career 43 sacks only 17.5 came in the 2nd half of games 10 in the 3rd quarter 7.5 in the 4th. 25.5 came in the 1st half. 13 in the 1st quarter of games. 12.5 in the 2nd. Of his 13 career forced fumbles only 3 game in the 2nd half of games. He's an athletic talent without a doubt, and a good reason for the dropoff in numbers, could be cause KC, was consistently trailing in games, However the guy was generally a nonfactor for large stretches. 1 conviction away from a year suspension. Mess up after that, you're looking at a long term suspension, and who knows when he'd be allowed back into the league. A good player, hardly worth the coin making him the highest paid defensive player in the league. This is a win/win trade for KC, who is not a few players away, but needs to rebuild their entire roster.

[NewEra]

Let's get this straight. Justin Smith "only" had 2 or so sacks last year, while Jared Allen led the NFL in sacks.

 

What does that really mean?

 

For one, it tells exactly how many times Justin Smith faced chips and double teams. When Smith got the chance late in the season to face Joe Thomas without help, Smith dominated, created pressure, forced turnovers, and triggered an upset. Allen may very well be a better pass rusher, but 14-2 is not an accurate reflection of the margin. Justin Smith is an excellent player who is high character and better against the run, and well more than half as effective off the edge.

 

So, instead of beating the Niners by guaranteeing 20 mil to Smith, the stupid Vikes trade their First and 2 Thirds for the "right" to pay Allen $30 mil guaranteed despite the fact that Allen is one bust away from a year long suspension and is not a very good player against the run.

 

This has to be one of the most all time brainless FO decisions.

 

 

Shocking, laughable, and we can all cheer that at least the Bills were not as stupid as the Vikes...

 

Too bad for them they don't have a viable QB, or they WOULD be instant SB contenders. Their D-front is going to be downright scary. By FAR, the best in the NFL now, including the SB teams pats and nyg's.

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

Too bad for them they don't have a viable QB, or they WOULD be instant SB contenders. Their D-front is going to be downright scary. By FAR, the best in the NFL now, including the SB teams pats and nyg's.

 

disagree. I like Kevin and Pat Williams, and Allen, but I wouldn't take that over the giants dline. They just have far too many pass rushers, especially when you throw kiwanuka into the mix. Too many ways you attack you inside/out. I'm not sure if I'd take them over the bears dline either. The pats also have a top notch dline. The vikings are sure to have a great dline. The best in the league? Subjective opinion.

[K-9]

Jared Allen was in no way a finisher. Of his career 43 sacks only 17.5 came in the 2nd half of games 10 in the 3rd quarter 7.5 in the 4th. 25.5 came in the 1st half. 13 in the 1st quarter of games. 12.5 in the 2nd. Of his 13 career forced fumbles only 3 game in the 2nd half of games. He's an athletic talent without a doubt, and a good reason for the dropoff in numbers, could be cause KC, was consistently trailing in games, However the guy was generally a nonfactor for large stretches. 1 conviction away from a year suspension. Mess up after that, you're looking at a long term suspension, and who knows when he'd be allowed back into the league. A good player, hardly worth the coin making him the highest paid defensive player in the league. This is a win/win trade for KC, who is not a few players away, but needs to rebuild their entire roster.

 

I don't want to get into the relevance of him not being a finisher, etc. Too many factors involved and one of them you alluded to already. Besides, I don't put a lot of stock in simple sack totals. Pressures are just as important. As are technique, holding a gap, etc, depending on the context of the defensive play call and the assigments relative to that call.

 

Nobody suggested it's not a good deal for KC. How ANYONE can suggest it isn't for the Vikings is ludicrous as that REMAINS to be seen. How anyone can suggest that the Vikings would have gotten someone better with their 1st pick is even MORE ludicrous. "Worth" has NOTHING to do with the equation one way or the other. You are worth whatever someone is willing to pay. Besides, and I haven't seen his contract structure, I would be VERY surprised if he stands to see more than what's guaranteed, like most of these astronomical contracts.

 

There have been many great players over the years that were one more infraction from suspension. Including our own Bruce Smith. While I agree that the past can often be a predictor of the future it may also serve to alter it as well. Sometimes a 26 year old with multi millions of dollars on the line can see the light. Sometimes they screw the pooch. Nobody knows until everybody knows.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[K-9]

"You are making the mistake of assuming that nobody knows that but you. You spout off about stats/probability and then base a large part of your argument on something that CANNOT be quantified statistically: Allen's character."

 

We can quantify that Allen's character has been an empirical problem. That you insist that is "BS" and the fact that he is one slip-up from a year long suspension is par for the level of sand blasted beaked idiocy you have bawked out here. You think you "know" Allen's character. You do not.

 

 

 

"In the meantime it's just more of your bullsh*t. "

 

Yeah, his passion for boozing and banging his car is "my fault." Got it...

 

 

 

"KC was willing to part with a CONSENSUS All Pro."

 

LMAO!!!

 

Note the emphasis on "consensus." There was a "consensus" that Robert Gallery was a sure thing OLT.

 

Beaked birdbrains really like the "consensus" stuff. If one guru says something, that means less to a parrot than if a whole bunch of gurus "agree" on a "consensus" like Gallery.

 

Who was the ONLY "Draft Guru" to PAN Gallery and claim Vernon Carey was the #1 OT prospect in 2004?

 

Yeah...

 

That's why Ramius is so obsessed.

 

 

 

Do yourself a favor, doggie. Go in front of a mirror and make sure you still have dog hair, not feathers...

 

It's ok to pet the rabbits now, Benny. Just be gentle, ok?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Orton's Arm]

While I agree the money is laughable and, yes, a 1st & 2 3rds is steep, fact remains the Vikes brought him in for one reason only. To get to the QB. With their interior run D, they don't need Allen to excel in that dept.

 

Steep price in picks and money? You bet. Is the team better because of this? Yes it is.

 

Now, if they can only find a servicable QB this is a SB team.

If the Vikings are looking for a QB, I know where they can get a 5th year vet, with an impressive array of physical tools, an excellent deep ball, a strong commitment, solid mobility, and one of the better QB ratings from the 2006 season. I imagine that this wonderful player (plus a third round pick) could be had in exchange for their second round pick.

 

Okay, so I don't really expect the Vikings to fall for the above paragraph. But it would be nice if they did: the Bills could use an extra pick in the second round.

[BB2004]

Let's get this straight. Justin Smith "only" had 2 or so sacks last year, while Jared Allen led the NFL in sacks.

 

What does that really mean?

 

For one, it tells exactly how many times Justin Smith faced chips and double teams. When Smith got the chance late in the season to face Joe Thomas without help, Smith dominated, created pressure, forced turnovers, and triggered an upset. Allen may very well be a better pass rusher, but 14-2 is not an accurate reflection of the margin. Justin Smith is an excellent player who is high character and better against the run, and well more than half as effective off the edge.

 

So, instead of beating the Niners by guaranteeing 20 mil to Smith, the stupid Vikes trade their First and 2 Thirds for the "right" to pay Allen $30 mil guaranteed despite the fact that Allen is one bust away from a year long suspension and is not a very good player against the run.

 

This has to be one of the most all time brainless FO decisions.

 

 

Shocking, laughable, and we can all cheer that at least the Bills were not as stupid as the Vikes...

 

I respectfully disagree. A very good pass rusher is something that every team would love to have. Jared Allen is one of the top pass rushing DE's in the league. This was a risky move, no doubt, but one that I would have made as well. This guy is a proven pro bowl player and will get a lot of one on one matchups this year because of Kevin Williams and Pat Williams.