In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 ESPN article on overrated and overpaid CBs Let's look at the San Francisco 49ers. In 2007, they jumped at the chance to sign Clements from the Buffalo Bills. The Niners' deal with Clements was eight years for $80 million. And what did the Niners get? From 2006 to 2007, the opposition's passing yards went up (from 3,817 to 3,826), interceptions went down (from 14 to 12) and sacks went down (34 to 31). And that's with the NFL's defensive rookie of the year, linebacker Patrick Willis. It's obvious what the Niners really needed: a pass rush. That's why coach Mike Nolan persuaded his front office to sign defensive end Justin Smith from the Bengals. Did the Niners overpay for Smith, who had just two sacks last season? Maybe so. But they had no choice. You can cover all day, but if you can't rush the passer, you're not going to win in today's NFL.
inkman Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 With the way refs officiate pass defense, teams are better off just trying to find a few guys in the draft that may develop. Overpaying for a CB is never a good idea. Deion Sanders may have been the only corner in the modern era that could completely change a gameplan. The Giants won the Superbowl by rendering the WR/CB matchups obsolete. A QB can't complete a pass from his arse.
ax4782 Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 CBs are getting way too much money these days, particularly when you look at dollar to talent ratio. And further, in our scheme you don't need "shut down corners" because everybody has to help cover the receivers. There is very little man to man in the cover two scheme. Thus, what you need are athletic, good size, above average corners who can cover their zones.
Arkady Renko Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 At the same time, we know the pain of having a terrible CB. No offense to the guy intended, but see Watson, Chris.
Tcali Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 With the way refs officiate pass defense, teams are better off just trying to find a few guys in the draft that may develop. Overpaying for a CB is never a good idea. Deion Sanders may have been the only corner in the modern era that could completely change a gameplan. The Giants won the Superbowl by rendering the WR/CB matchups obsolete. A QB can't complete a pass from his arse. So true. But yet there are the future Detroit lion GMs on this board who think DE is not a priority because we overpay 2 mediocrities at the position.
Tim Anderson's Lunch Pail Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 At the same time, we know the pain of having a terrible CB. No offense to the guy intended, but see Watson, Chris. If I remember correctly, he was a much worse return-man than he was CB. I thought he actually showed some (SOME) flashes at nickelback.
Chalkie Gerzowski Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 Is this the same Nate Clements that ESPN ballwashed a year ago, saying it was the biggest coup in free agency and the Bills were insane to let Clements go?
colin Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 you need it all. the giants had a bad pass rush last year (strahan and uminora had exactly the sacks kelsey and aaron did) and all they added was corners and the scheme the corners let them run. baltimore rellies heavily on their CBs and entire secondary to hold out while they jumble and overload the front 7. if we get corner/2ndary help (getting healthy will be part of that) we will be able to blitz and stunt much more. linebacker play is a part of all of this too. they make the most plays and a tackle resulting in a 7 yard gain is much different than a 14 yard gain. a new top cb will allow us to go balls out on 3rd and long.
Sisyphean Bills Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 you need it all. the giants had a bad pass rush last year (strahan and uminora had exactly the sacks kelsey and aaron did) and all they added was corners and the scheme the corners let them run. baltimore rellies heavily on their CBs and entire secondary to hold out while they jumble and overload the front 7. if we get corner/2ndary help (getting healthy will be part of that) we will be able to blitz and stunt much more. linebacker play is a part of all of this too. they make the most plays and a tackle resulting in a 7 yard gain is much different than a 14 yard gain. a new top cb will allow us to go balls out on 3rd and long. So, what you are saying is: "You are only as strong as your weakest link." Good job.
colin Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 close, but i think there is a bit more to it than that. the right compliment of players really super charges your D. wade phillips ds are all like that. in SD they have like 1 really good pass rusher, one good one, and then 3 strong but slow d linemen. due to scheme and complimentary talent they terrorise the nfl with 50+ turnovers! with our new lbs, stroud, johnson, and a cb i think we'll have the d to match up with new england.
K-9 Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 With the way refs officiate pass defense, teams are better off just trying to find a few guys in the draft that may develop. Overpaying for a CB is never a good idea. Deion Sanders may have been the only corner in the modern era that could completely change a gameplan. The Giants won the Superbowl by rendering the WR/CB matchups obsolete. A QB can't complete a pass from his arse. You have no idea how correct you are in that statement. He was the best CB to ever play the position, hands down. I've never seen ANYONE take away as much field as he could. People around here, because they don't like the 'Primetime' persona, will knock him for not being better at run support. That's a laugh! When you have the best pass defender of all time you don't want him getting hurt making a tackle on a running play. BTW, Deion was considered by those that played with him as a consumate locker room guy. Those reports first serviced when he played for the Yankees of all teams. He really took that dressing down by Carlton Fisk to heart as well. Despite his showboating antics and the media spectacle he created off the field he was humble enough when it mattered. And he was always considered one of the hardest working players off the field. You don't get that good just because you're fast. GO BILLS!!!
Arkady Renko Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 If I remember correctly, he was a much worse return-man than he was CB. I thought he actually showed some (SOME) flashes at nickelback. I remember him being picked on constantly in 3 WR sets, but maybe my memory is fading.
bizell Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 If I remember correctly, he was a much worse return-man than he was CB. I thought he actually showed some (SOME) flashes at nickelback. that's correct. the example of see watson, chris was a horrible one. a more fitting one would have been williams,j.d.
K-9 Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 I remember him being picked on constantly in 3 WR sets, but maybe my memory is fading. No, your memory is quite correct. We had to move Winfield over to cover the slot receiver in our nickel package. Watson wasn't quick enough. And Watson was picked on CONSTANTLY. That's why he showed a few flashes but he wasn't a good CB. As a CB he was a GREAT punt catcher. GO BILLS!!!
d_wag Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 and that is why i hope the bills don't go CB at #11.......playing defense isn't that complicated - if you can get to the QB consistently without having to blitz a ton then you are going to stop any offense.........bills need another pass rusher, be it on the outside (harvey) or on the inside (ellis is within reach and a trade up would be well worth the price)
BADOLBILZ Posted April 22, 2008 Posted April 22, 2008 ESPN article on overrated and overpaid CBs I absolutely agree that good corners are overpaid. It therefore stands to reason that they should not be drafted highly except in rare cases. The Bills don't overpay for corners, but they draft them early far too often and it clearly has had a negative impact on the franchise over the past 15 years. In part because games are won at the LOS, not at corner, but also because the Bills end up letting players who they've invested high draft picks in........the foundation of their team.......leave via free agency. Nate Odomes, Thomas Smith, Jeff Burris, Antoine Winfield and Nate Clements. Take a good look at that list folks. All high picks, all left via free agency. How could anyone in their right mind want this organization to draft another corner in round 1? If a player is worthy of using your #1 pick on........then pans out.....that player should be worth paying market value. The Bills obviously don't value cornerbacks. They couldn't have asked a lot more from Clements. He played EVERY game, was very good in coverage and run defense and came away with pics and forced fumbles. Then he went to SF racked up 92 tackles, 4 picks and 3 forced fumbles. History just keeps repeating itself for this team.
KD in CA Posted April 22, 2008 Posted April 22, 2008 and that is why i hope the bills don't go CB at #11 during Day 1...... Fixed.
Steely Dan Posted April 22, 2008 Posted April 22, 2008 At the same time, we know the pain of having a terrible CB. No offense to the guy intended, but see Watson, Chris. A third rounder for that schlub!! If I remember correctly, he was a much worse return-man than he was CB. I thought he actually showed some (SOME) flashes at nickelback. IIRC, when they brought him in they were adamant that he was not a punt returner he was a punt catcher!! and that is why i hope the bills don't go CB at #11.......playing defense isn't that complicated - if you can get to the QB consistently without having to blitz a ton then you are going to stop any offense.........bills need another pass rusher, be it on the outside (harvey) or on the inside (ellis is within reach and a trade up would be well worth the price) There is such a thing as a coverage sack and not every QB is rattled by pressure. I absolutely agree that good corners are overpaid. It therefore stands to reason that they should not be drafted highly except in rare cases. The Bills don't overpay for corners, but they draft them early far too often and it clearly has had a negative impact on the franchise over the past 15 years. In part because games are won at the LOS, not at corner, but also because the Bills end up letting players who they've invested high draft picks in........the foundation of their team.......leave via free agency. Nate Odomes, Thomas Smith, Jeff Burris, Antoine Winfield and Nate Clements. Take a good look at that list folks. All high picks, all left via free agency. How could anyone in their right mind want this organization to draft another corner in round 1? If a player is worthy of using your #1 pick on........then pans out.....that player should be worth paying market value. The Bills obviously don't value cornerbacks. They couldn't have asked a lot more from Clements. He played EVERY game, was very good in coverage and run defense and came away with pics and forced fumbles. Then he went to SF racked up 92 tackles, 4 picks and 3 forced fumbles. History just keeps repeating itself for this team. Yeah, why get a great corner for several years at a reasonable price.
Dr. Fong Posted April 22, 2008 Posted April 22, 2008 WOW this thread is like a breath of fresh air. That article is spot on. Not that you don't need good corners, but a shutdown corner is a luxury pick that you put in place AFTER you have a functioning pass rush and a stout interior. A lot of times what will happen then is those average CBs start looking like shutdown corners suddenly.
Pyrite Gal Posted April 22, 2008 Posted April 22, 2008 I absolutely agree that good corners are overpaid. It therefore stands to reason that they should not be drafted highly except in rare cases. The Bills don't overpay for corners, but they draft them early far too often and it clearly has had a negative impact on the franchise over the past 15 years. In part because games are won at the LOS, not at corner, but also because the Bills end up letting players who they've invested high draft picks in........the foundation of their team.......leave via free agency. Nate Odomes, Thomas Smith, Jeff Burris, Antoine Winfield and Nate Clements. Take a good look at that list folks. All high picks, all left via free agency. How could anyone in their right mind want this organization to draft another corner in round 1? If a player is worthy of using your #1 pick on........then pans out.....that player should be worth paying market value. The Bills obviously don't value cornerbacks. They couldn't have asked a lot more from Clements. He played EVERY game, was very good in coverage and run defense and came away with pics and forced fumbles. Then he went to SF racked up 92 tackles, 4 picks and 3 forced fumbles. History just keeps repeating itself for this team. My sense is that some folks will want/demand that the Bills take a CB in this draft because they were influenced by those who hyperventilated at our letting Clements walk. Very good CBs are very good to have, but the bottomlines are NC for all the doom predicted on this board was when he left arguably not even among the top 5 CBs in football much less worth being the highest paid defensive player in football. In particular when one takes into account that th Bills were committed to a scheme within which a CB who covers WRs all over the field is not going to be utilized in that way, it made perfect football sense to do what the Bills did which was to wish NC well but let him go. It would have been dumb even to franchise him another time as the market required a payment of the average of the top 5 CBs in the league and we were not going to utilize NC in that way even if he stepped up his play. The answer to your question is do not believe the hype or folks who insist we are DDDOOOOMMMEEDD.
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