erynthered Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 They've got this new technology out that lets you upgrade your water heater without using any extra electricity. It's called "gas"... I checked that out too. I bought the HWT and installed it. 9 year guarantee against anything going wrong with it. $200.00 Done.
Thirdborn Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 Who is the manufacturer of yours? I'm getting some quotes today and I need to make a quick decision. No hot water now for two days and counting. It's a Rinnai.
apuszczalowski Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 I had a Rinnai installed when we built our current house, so I can give you nearly two years of feedback. In 21 months there have been no failures or repair issues. I keep it set at 125 degrees year-round. If I have any complaint, it's that locations farthest from the heater take a while to heat up -- but I don't believe that's a fault of the system. The water just takes time to run through the pipes. In our master bathroom -- the closest location to the heater -- the water is hot within seconds. It's pretty remarkable. The only other issue is load. We don't overwork the heater because it's just my wife and I (no kids), so we rarely have multiple showers running. I notice a pressure drop when I'm in the shower and the dishwasher or washing machine are on, but I've never experienced a loss of heat. Same goes for guests using other bathrooms upstairs (never had a complaint). I suppose I ought to test it by turning on three showers and the washing machine at once, but I've never done that. Edit: I seem to recall reading something in the literature about the heater being able to support 3-4 appliances (showers, washing machine, dishwasher) running at once. If load is an issue, they recommend multiple units. Based upon my experience I certainly recommend the Rinnai product. Have you tried wrapping the pipe in the foam insulation? that might help keep the water warmer
Wraith Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 Have you tried wrapping the pipe in the foam insulation? that might help keep the water warmer The problem isn't keeping the hot water warm as it travels through long lines. The problem is displacing all the water that was allowed to sit in the line between uses, cooling until it reached ambient temperature. It can take a long time for the hot water to displace all ambient water if the lines are long. No amount of insulation will keep the water in the lines from cooling to ambient temperature eventually. EDIT: Showers are typically 1.5 - 3.0 GPM. Let's go with 1.5 GPM and say the line to the shower is 3/8" ID (I have no idea if that's typical in residential but it's really common in industrial settings) and 100 feet long. That's 132 cubic inches or about 0.5 gallons. That's 20 seconds to fill the line with hot water, displacing the cold. Kind of a long time.
Chef Jim Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 Bottom line -- tank is always on, tankless only comes on as needed. The less hot water you use, the more economical the tankless. I got that the first time. However if my tank is always on and I only spend $20 per month on gas, how much is that hot water tank costing me very day. Compare that to how much more a tankless would cost to install. When's the break even point?
apuszczalowski Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 The problem isn't keeping the hot water warm as it travels through long lines. The problem is displacing all the water that was allowed to sit in the line between uses, cooling until it reached ambient temperature. It can take a long time for the hot water to displace all ambient water if the lines are long. No amount of insulation will keep the water in the lines from cooling to ambient temperature eventually. EDIT: Showers are typically 1.5 - 3.0 GPM. Let's go with 1.5 GPM and say the line to the shower is 3/8" ID (I have no idea if that's typical in residential but it's really common in industrial settings) and 100 feet long. That's 132 cubic inches or about 0.5 gallons. That's 20 seconds to fill the line with hot water, displacing the cold. Kind of a long time. I understand what you are talking about. The insulation might help if its going to a fixture that is used often, like a sink, but I guess it wouldn't if its going to something used less often. If the pipe can hold the heat longer, the water in it will stay warmer and it would be less of a transition between cold/cooler water to warm. But yes, like you said the insulation will not solve the problem
apuszczalowski Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 I got that the first time. However if my tank is always on and I only spend $20 per month on gas, how much is that hot water tank costing me very day. Compare that to how much more a tankless would cost to install. When's the break even point? In your case it probably wouldn't help much because your bill is so low anyways, you might save a couple of bucks a month But being in california, you don't have to deal with the cooler months where you would need more heating.
Chef Jim Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 In your case it probably wouldn't help much because your bill is so low anyways, you might save a couple of bucks a month But being in california, you don't have to deal with the cooler months where you would need more heating. And that's really why I decided against it.
realtruelove Posted April 7, 2008 Author Posted April 7, 2008 We have had a Rinnai (gas) for 3 years with no problems - absolutely a great product. We installed it outside of the house but built it into an unobtrusive edge and painted it to match the house - it looks like a power panel. We vented it there rather than putting in underneath the house. We have a crawlspace so that seemed the best option but another placement may be a better option for you. (edit after eball's reply): We have not had a problem with load: one unit, family of 4, frequent guests, 3 showers, front-load washer, dishwasher, etc. Never have experienced any issues or received any complaints about water pressure when units were running simultaneously. Only one tankless system. Could water pressure issues pertain to that delivered to the house rather than from the tankless hot water system? If so, I recall seeing something about a water pressure boost that could be added to a tankless system. I just got my first quote. $4000 for the installation of a Rinnai 98i, the 9.8GPM model, gas fired. Installation will be in my garage as opposed to 2nd floor bedroom where the original tank is. I do want want to install another tank on the second floor, way too much risk. $4000 seems pretty steep.
apuszczalowski Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 I just got my first quote. $4000 for the installation of a Rinnai 98i, the 9.8GPM model, gas fired. Installation will be in my garage as opposed to 2nd floor bedroom where the original tank is. I do want want to install another tank on the second floor, way too much risk. $4000 seems pretty steep. It might be, definitly get another quote or 2. It might be a little more too because you are not installing it in the same place as where the existing one is. So not only do they have to remove the old tank, they have to fix the piping there, and do whatever is necessary to install it in the garage.
Just Jack Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 The big energy savings comes from no longer keeping a tankful of hot water at temperature "on standby." That's the big reason I'm looking into it. I'm on the road during the week, so for those 5 days it's only my wife, and we don't use that much hot water. And in my house, the added benefit of not having a 75-gallon tank of water on the upper floor of the house. My biggest fear is that tank bursts and floods the kitchen and living room below, and there's nowhere on the lower floor to relocate a tank (and no basement). I may end up getting a tankless heater just for that peace of mind. True story: One senior living facility I was working at, about 100-120 rooms, every room has it's own 40-gallon HWT, located in the attic over their room (it's a 1 story building). Head of maintenance told me that every year, they pull out the 10 oldest units and replace them "just in case". I mentioned he should look into tankless for that reason, plus how much hot water are they really using each day. They could probably run 3-4 rooms of one tankless unit. How much do one of them cost with installation? How much is it actually costing me to keep my hot water heater hot? I was quoted about $1500, $1K for the unit (Bosch), $250 for the vent kit, and $250 for installation. I'm not sure how much of my gas bill is for hot water, since we got the furnace and are doing the budget plan, where they take your estimated yearly amount and split it over 12 months. I just got my first quote. $4000 for the installation of a Rinnai 98i, the 9.8GPM model, gas fired. Installation will be in my garage as opposed to 2nd floor bedroom where the original tank is. I do want want to install another tank on the second floor, way too much risk. $4000 seems pretty steep. That definitely sounds too high.
Beerball Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 I checked that out too. I bought the HWT and installed it. 9 year guarantee against anything going wrong with it. $200.00 Done. Was installing it a tankless job?
Chef Jim Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 I was quoted about $1500, $1K for the unit (Bosch), $250 for the vent kit, and $250 for installation. I'm not sure how much of my gas bill is for hot water, since we got the furnace and are doing the budget plan, where they take your estimated yearly amount and split it over 12 months. I got a hot water tank for $950 installed. So that's an awful not of showers to my break even point.
Beerball Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 I got a hot water tank for $950 installed. So that's an awful not of showers to my break even point. $950 in Cali with all of the regulations, not a bad bill. Were the installers documented?
Chef Jim Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 $950 in Cali with all of the regulations, not a bad bill. Were the installers documented? I wasn't home, my wife paid them. Heyyyyyyyyy wait a minute.
realtruelove Posted April 7, 2008 Author Posted April 7, 2008 It might be, definitly get another quote or 2. It might be a little more too because you are not installing it in the same place as where the existing one is. So not only do they have to remove the old tank, they have to fix the piping there, and do whatever is necessary to install it in the garage. Second quote came in at $3700. This guy recommended the same installation location, in my garage. I'm getting one more quote tomorrow. Extra cost is the extra labor to install addtional plumbing since the unit is not a drop in. This company said they prefer the Noritz over Rinnai. Nortiz actually makes most of the components for the Rinnai.
eball Posted April 8, 2008 Posted April 8, 2008 I got that the first time. However if my tank is always on and I only spend $20 per month on gas, how much is that hot water tank costing me very day. Compare that to how much more a tankless would cost to install. When's the break even point? Part of the reason my decision was easier is because I began at the house-building stage. I had no costs associated with removal of a tank, and the cost of installation of the Rinnai was wrapped into the home price. By the way, my costs were in the $1200-1500 range, if I recall correctly. I'm not suggesting you should have opted for the tankless; it's just that your earlier comments made me believe (incorrectly) you thought using less water meant your tank was a better option.
Mr Info Posted April 8, 2008 Posted April 8, 2008 Part of the reason my decision was easier is because I began at the house-building stage. I had no costs associated with removal of a tank, and the cost of installation of the Rinnai was wrapped into the home price. By the way, my costs were in the $1200-1500 range, if I recall correctly. Ditto. I have no previous expenses to compare for ROI but my average monthly gas bill is $25. But that also includes our cooktop which we use quite frequently. But even if it took 5 years or so to recoup the initial investment, the fact that we do not have to be ration hot water for showers/laundry/dishwashing/etc. is well worth the expense. Before I get slammed by the environmentalists, we are cognizant about our water consumption.
eball Posted April 8, 2008 Posted April 8, 2008 This thread got me thinking yesterday, and I found this product while looking for a "booster" to improve the delay in getting hot water to my kitchen (I timed it last night -- 105 seconds!!): The Chili Pepper Looks simple enough to install and it's relatively inexpensive -- any of you "handymen" have any thoughts on the concept and whether it would be worth it to try? I've already got a power receptacle under my sink (for the disposal).
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