mary owen Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 gotta agree with Pat here http://www.nfl.com/draft/story;jsessionid=...mp;confirm=true
stuckincincy Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 gotta agree with Pat here http://www.nfl.com/draft/story;jsessionid=...mp;confirm=true Cue Pyrite Gal...
K-9 Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 Agree 100%. Football is, always has been, and always will be a game of PLAYERS. Better players make better football teams? That's a radical concept to some. I wish I had a nickel for every coach I've heard say it isn't about schemes, it's about having enough good players. Schemes only put players in a position to succeed. If you have sh*t players to implement your schemes then you have nothing. All one has to do is look at ANY great coach in history. It wasn't before that great coach assembled enough great players that his schemes became successful. What, Lombardi, Shula, Knoll, Walsh, et al all of sudden figured it out? GO BILLS!!!
Pyrite Gal Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 gotta agree with Pat here http://www.nfl.com/draft/story;jsessionid=...mp;confirm=true I agree with part of what Pat says but disagree if one attempts to take it to the other extreme. I agree that a team needs good CB play to be successful. If your team has two bad players on D (whether they are CBs, Ss, LBs, or on DL) the other team will pick on them and kill you. A team definitely needs good play at CB in order to be adequate in the NFL. However, if one takes this true point to the other extreme and claims that a team must have shutdown CBs and devote the 1st round to the CB position in order to get good CB play I disagree with this. The Cover 2 provides the benefit that one can get GOOD CB play out of players who do not have the talent to cover WRs all over the field. Players of the caliber to be shutdown corners are not a type of player that is easy to find and if one does find them you end up having to pay a player like Nate Clements who is a good CB, but was arguably the 4th or 5th best CB in the AFC (conference not the whole league) the biggest contract ever given to a defensive player in order to sign him. No team is perfect in the NFL. The salary cap virtually assures this. Winning in the modern NFL is not about achieving perfection (which is near impossible) it is about covering up for or compensating for the weakenesses you choose to have. Cover 2 is a good defense as when it works (as it did in the 2006 season SB where we saw both teams who made the big dance run the Cover 2) it allows you to have less than shutdown quality CBs man the position (they were good players just not great players of shutdown CB ability) and still give you good enough play to win. In order to win with a Cover 2 one needs: 1. Good attacking LBs who have the ability to make tackles to nullify inside rushes but also good pursuit which allows them to tackle or catch outside rushers contained by the CBs. The LBs must also have good pass rush ability. 2. A strong DL capable of holding the LOS on the run and also capable of penetrating to pressure the QB. 3. Good safeties who bear the primary downfield cover duties. 4. Strong CBs who contain outside rushers and do good press coverage in the short zone. A key for the team is for the players to make good reads so they do the best job possible anticipating the call as significant changes in the D scheme can occur on plays such as WR fly patterns where a change-up may require the CB to play a more traditional role of covering the WR down the field. The CB needs to have some ability to make this play and have some speed when this coverage is called for, however, he need not be forced to do this with no help since the change-up can be made and still allow the S to give him deep help and there is also even more time for blitzers to pressure the pocket. In addition, if a team has a swift MLB with a good mind, they also can play something more like the Tampa 2 where when the D reads deep pass or some attempt to flood the deep zone like the one Kirwin describes the D would actually be running something like a 3 deep where the two safeties and the MLB divide the field into thirds and drop, A QB is generally not going to do well if he is throwing into 3 defenders or a very crowded field if he sends 4 deep into those 3 defenders (or more if the D recognizes the play and switches to a man-to-man. Overall, IF Kirwin is trying to make the extreme claim that a team must commit to paying through the tooth for 2 stud CBs, this generally ignores the fact that due to the limitations which occur in the real world, the signing of these two hypothetical shutdown CBs means that a team is going to have to chose to be weak elsewhere as it spends its limited cap room. The key question if a team is going to commit the resources to buy the services of a shutdown CB, then at which positions will they choose to go cheap. Overall, in the Cover 2 (more like a Tampa 2 we employ) we are going with a reasonable starter at 1 CB (McGee struggled with our Cover 2 early on but as many say it takes a year to master the Cover 2 but after getting his attitude an approach adjusted by being benched during the first half of 06, he turned his play around to be adequate or maybe even good in the second half of last year. Further, the Bills plans were to use Webster as a Plan A for the second CB slot (this plan did not work and Webster ended up on IR), Youbouty as Plan B (a good thought as he has a rep for good press coverage and handgfighting and is over 6 feet allowing him to take on the fade routes Kirwin mentions but ultimately injuries and his truncated rookie season in 06 made 07 a disappointment for him), and plan C of Thomas also got IR'ed. Fortunately is Kirwin is claiming that it is impossible for a limited talent to play CB in today's NFL Jabari Greer proved him wrong last year. No one would mistake the Bills pass D of being good or even adequate, but even a limited talent such as Plan D Greer impressed many with how he handled playing CB in our poor Cover 2 which was also suffering from even bigger limitations in our DL plays and injuries which really hit our Ss and LBs hard. Can bad CBs play well in the NFL? No obviously. However, can merely adequate CBs be good enough to make the Cover 2 work? Yep, probably and the Bills play last year is good evidence that one can survive with pedestrian CB play by using the Cover 2. We fans demand better than adequate however, and our D seems to be headed that way with Stroud and a new back-up DT improving our DL pressure, with the acquisition of Kawika Mitchell who it is to be hoped will join a recoved POS to make LB corps good enough to do the job and with a full year of Whitner and Simpson buttresed by Wilson (we can use more depth at S) and with using McGee as the #1 CB and having a competition between Grerr, Youbouty, new acquisition James and it is to be hoped another new aquistion to at least be nickel worthy with one of them being good enough to start. We will see.
K-9 Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 I agree with part of what Pat says but disagree if one attempts to take it to the other extreme. I agree that a team needs good CB play to be successful. If your team has two bad players on D (whether they are CBs, Ss, LBs, or on DL) the other team will pick on them and kill you. A team definitely needs good play at CB in order to be adequate in the NFL. However, if one takes this true point to the other extreme and claims that a team must have shutdown CBs and devote the 1st round to the CB position in order to get good CB play I disagree with this. The Cover 2 provides the benefit that one can get GOOD CB play out of players who do not have the talent to cover WRs all over the field. Players of the caliber to be shutdown corners are not a type of player that is easy to find and if one does find them you end up having to pay a player like Nate Clements who is a good CB, but was arguably the 4th or 5th best CB in the AFC (conference not the whole league) the biggest contract ever given to a defensive player in order to sign him. No team is perfect in the NFL. The salary cap virtually assures this. Winning in the modern NFL is not about achieving perfection (which is near impossible) it is about covering up for or compensating for the weakenesses you choose to have. Cover 2 is a good defense as when it works (as it did in the 2006 season SB where we saw both teams who made the big dance run the Cover 2) it allows you to have less than shutdown quality CBs man the position (they were good players just not great players of shutdown CB ability) and still give you good enough play to win. In order to win with a Cover 2 one needs: 1. Good attacking LBs who have the ability to make tackles to nullify inside rushes but also good pursuit which allows them to tackle or catch outside rushers contained by the CBs. The LBs must also have good pass rush ability. 2. A strong DL capable of holding the LOS on the run and also capable of penetrating to pressure the QB. 3. Good safeties who bear the primary downfield cover duties. 4. Strong CBs who contain outside rushers and do good press coverage in the short zone. A key for the team is for the players to make good reads so they do the best job possible anticipating the call as significant changes in the D scheme can occur on plays such as WR fly patterns where a change-up may require the CB to play a more traditional role of covering the WR down the field. The CB needs to have some ability to make this play and have some speed when this coverage is called for, however, he need not be forced to do this with no help since the change-up can be made and still allow the S to give him deep help and there is also even more time for blitzers to pressure the pocket. In addition, if a team has a swift MLB with a good mind, they also can play something more like the Tampa 2 where when the D reads deep pass or some attempt to flood the deep zone like the one Kirwin describes the D would actually be running something like a 3 deep where the two safeties and the MLB divide the field into thirds and drop, A QB is generally not going to do well if he is throwing into 3 defenders or a very crowded field if he sends 4 deep into those 3 defenders (or more if the D recognizes the play and switches to a man-to-man. Overall, IF Kirwin is trying to make the extreme claim that a team must commit to paying through the tooth for 2 stud CBs, this generally ignores the fact that due to the limitations which occur in the real world, the signing of these two hypothetical shutdown CBs means that a team is going to have to chose to be weak elsewhere as it spends its limited cap room. The key question if a team is going to commit the resources to buy the services of a shutdown CB, then at which positions will they choose to go cheap. Overall, in the Cover 2 (more like a Tampa 2 we employ) we are going with a reasonable starter at 1 CB (McGee struggled with our Cover 2 early on but as many say it takes a year to master the Cover 2 but after getting his attitude an approach adjusted by being benched during the first half of 06, he turned his play around to be adequate or maybe even good in the second half of last year. Further, the Bills plans were to use Webster as a Plan A for the second CB slot (this plan did not work and Webster ended up on IR), Youbouty as Plan B (a good thought as he has a rep for good press coverage and handgfighting and is over 6 feet allowing him to take on the fade routes Kirwin mentions but ultimately injuries and his truncated rookie season in 06 made 07 a disappointment for him), and plan C of Thomas also got IR'ed. Fortunately is Kirwin is claiming that it is impossible for a limited talent to play CB in today's NFL Jabari Greer proved him wrong last year. No one would mistake the Bills pass D of being good or even adequate, but even a limited talent such as Plan D Greer impressed many with how he handled playing CB in our poor Cover 2 which was also suffering from even bigger limitations in our DL plays and injuries which really hit our Ss and LBs hard. Can bad CBs play well in the NFL? No obviously. However, can merely adequate CBs be good enough to make the Cover 2 work? Yep, probably and the Bills play last year is good evidence that one can survive with pedestrian CB play by using the Cover 2. We fans demand better than adequate however, and our D seems to be headed that way with Stroud and a new back-up DT improving our DL pressure, with the acquisition of Kawika Mitchell who it is to be hoped will join a recoved POS to make LB corps good enough to do the job and with a full year of Whitner and Simpson buttresed by Wilson (we can use more depth at S) and with using McGee as the #1 CB and having a competition between Grerr, Youbouty, new acquisition James and it is to be hoped another new aquistion to at least be nickel worthy with one of them being good enough to start. We will see. What about Kirwan's larger point about how easy it is to take a team OUT of a cover two? Now, not every team has the personnel to do this (Jets, Miami) but NE certainly does and they DID exactly that to us last year. As did other teams. And that's why we were only in the defense 25% of the time or so. Offenses with superior personnel will ALWAYS dictate to the defense what coverages they'll play until a defense forces them to change. GO BILLS!!!
mary owen Posted April 2, 2008 Author Posted April 2, 2008 I agree with part of what Pat says but disagree if one attempts to take it to the other extreme. I agree that a team needs good CB play to be successful. If your team has two bad players on D (whether they are CBs, Ss, LBs, or on DL) the other team will pick on them and kill you. A team definitely needs good play at CB in order to be adequate in the NFL. However, if one takes this true point to the other extreme and claims that a team must have shutdown CBs and devote the 1st round to the CB position in order to get good CB play I disagree with this. The Cover 2 provides the benefit that one can get GOOD CB play out of players who do not have the talent to cover WRs all over the field. Players of the caliber to be shutdown corners are not a type of player that is easy to find and if one does find them you end up having to pay a player like Nate Clements who is a good CB, but was arguably the 4th or 5th best CB in the AFC (conference not the whole league) the biggest contract ever given to a defensive player in order to sign him. No team is perfect in the NFL. The salary cap virtually assures this. Winning in the modern NFL is not about achieving perfection (which is near impossible) it is about covering up for or compensating for the weakenesses you choose to have. Cover 2 is a good defense as when it works (as it did in the 2006 season SB where we saw both teams who made the big dance run the Cover 2) it allows you to have less than shutdown quality CBs man the position (they were good players just not great players of shutdown CB ability) and still give you good enough play to win. In order to win with a Cover 2 one needs: 1. Good attacking LBs who have the ability to make tackles to nullify inside rushes but also good pursuit which allows them to tackle or catch outside rushers contained by the CBs. The LBs must also have good pass rush ability. 2. A strong DL capable of holding the LOS on the run and also capable of penetrating to pressure the QB. 3. Good safeties who bear the primary downfield cover duties. 4. Strong CBs who contain outside rushers and do good press coverage in the short zone. A key for the team is for the players to make good reads so they do the best job possible anticipating the call as significant changes in the D scheme can occur on plays such as WR fly patterns where a change-up may require the CB to play a more traditional role of covering the WR down the field. The CB needs to have some ability to make this play and have some speed when this coverage is called for, however, he need not be forced to do this with no help since the change-up can be made and still allow the S to give him deep help and there is also even more time for blitzers to pressure the pocket. In addition, if a team has a swift MLB with a good mind, they also can play something more like the Tampa 2 where when the D reads deep pass or some attempt to flood the deep zone like the one Kirwin describes the D would actually be running something like a 3 deep where the two safeties and the MLB divide the field into thirds and drop, A QB is generally not going to do well if he is throwing into 3 defenders or a very crowded field if he sends 4 deep into those 3 defenders (or more if the D recognizes the play and switches to a man-to-man. Overall, IF Kirwin is trying to make the extreme claim that a team must commit to paying through the tooth for 2 stud CBs, this generally ignores the fact that due to the limitations which occur in the real world, the signing of these two hypothetical shutdown CBs means that a team is going to have to chose to be weak elsewhere as it spends its limited cap room. The key question if a team is going to commit the resources to buy the services of a shutdown CB, then at which positions will they choose to go cheap. Overall, in the Cover 2 (more like a Tampa 2 we employ) we are going with a reasonable starter at 1 CB (McGee struggled with our Cover 2 early on but as many say it takes a year to master the Cover 2 but after getting his attitude an approach adjusted by being benched during the first half of 06, he turned his play around to be adequate or maybe even good in the second half of last year. Further, the Bills plans were to use Webster as a Plan A for the second CB slot (this plan did not work and Webster ended up on IR), Youbouty as Plan B (a good thought as he has a rep for good press coverage and handgfighting and is over 6 feet allowing him to take on the fade routes Kirwin mentions but ultimately injuries and his truncated rookie season in 06 made 07 a disappointment for him), and plan C of Thomas also got IR'ed. Fortunately is Kirwin is claiming that it is impossible for a limited talent to play CB in today's NFL Jabari Greer proved him wrong last year. No one would mistake the Bills pass D of being good or even adequate, but even a limited talent such as Plan D Greer impressed many with how he handled playing CB in our poor Cover 2 which was also suffering from even bigger limitations in our DL plays and injuries which really hit our Ss and LBs hard. Can bad CBs play well in the NFL? No obviously. However, can merely adequate CBs be good enough to make the Cover 2 work? Yep, probably and the Bills play last year is good evidence that one can survive with pedestrian CB play by using the Cover 2. We fans demand better than adequate however, and our D seems to be headed that way with Stroud and a new back-up DT improving our DL pressure, with the acquisition of Kawika Mitchell who it is to be hoped will join a recoved POS to make LB corps good enough to do the job and with a full year of Whitner and Simpson buttresed by Wilson (we can use more depth at S) and with using McGee as the #1 CB and having a competition between Grerr, Youbouty, new acquisition James and it is to be hoped another new aquistion to at least be nickel worthy with one of them being good enough to start. We will see. am I the only one who despises the term "shut down corner"? Another myth. People speak about this like it's another position in the secondary. Even if we are talking about a guy that offense are scared to throw against, I can't think of that many...and the one's I knew of still could get burned on any given Sunday....particularly SB Sunday. One other thing on the D line's pressure helping average corners play in the cover 2.....I think half the time if not more, it's the above average corner play that helps the D get the pressure. Think about it.
Pyrite Gal Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 What about Kirwan's larger point about how easy it is to take a team OUT of a cover two? Now, not every team has the personnel to do this (Jets, Miami) but NE certainly does and they DID exactly that to us last year. As did other teams. And that's why we were only in the defense 25% of the time or so. Offenses with superior personnel will ALWAYS dictate to the defense what coverages they'll play until a defense forces them to change. GO BILLS!!! I think part of the answer to your question is found in your last line. The question for the D us how does it force an offense to change and one answer for this is through a superior pass rush. Will it work all the time? NO. What does. However, the reason why Jauron (IMHO) has emphasized wanting to get good penetration from the DL (the attempts to sign sackmaster Walker last year and the frustration which led to the cut of DT whathisname from Indy- how soon we forget old news) was that we simply could not generate enough pressure up the middle to dictate the game. NYG has more sacks than any other NFL team last year and a big part of why they controlled a team like NE which as you say certainly has the talent to dictate to a D is that they put Tom Brady on his butt every chance they could and pressured him a ton which in essence made Moss/Welker and the boys losers. Now this is easier said than done in the NFL and the Pats racked up 18 Ws to prove it. However, the final game shows how not only in theory but in real life it can be done to dictate to even the great Pats O with a solid rush and some really outstanding DB work. The problem for the Bills is whether our version of the Cover 2 with our talented but adequate at best CBs can pull off outstanding work. I think McGee who clearly is a Pro Bowl level athletic talent (which he earned through KR work) has the speed and ability to make the switch to play a traditional CB role from time to time. The problem for him was in the first half of 06 he was not up to it mentally to make the correct reads. However, with the help of us changing up the coverage to have NC take the opponents best player all the time McGee righted the ship of state with his performance in the second half of 06. Last year, he continued to improve as players often do with their second year in a Cover 2 where he showed he can make the proper reads and given his athletic ability he is capable of being an adequate #1 CB. The interesting (and lucky) thing for us was that it turned out that Plan D Greer also has the athleticism (he apparently is one of the faster Bills and actually has made a number of very athletic coverage plays in his career, but unfortunately he seemed to only do these in pre-season) to cover the fly patterns. Greer though at 5'10 does not intimidate on the fade patterns (though McGee is even shorter his speed and jumping ability does slow QBs down a bit on flys but he too can be challenged on fades). but his downfield coverage is good. Specifically addressing Kirwin's points: 1. You can't play Cover 2 all day and have corners play the flat area every down. All an offense has to do is put trips (three receivers) to one side and the opposite corner is all alone. As for the pass rush, a three-step drop and a ball directed at the receiver who is being single-covered takes the pass rush out of the equation. One of the reasons the Pats are so dangerous is that they can attack you from many different points on the field. Quite frankly it would be a wonderful thing to have them take one side of the field out of play by loading up on one side. Particularly if the also choose to take the deep part of the field out of play by going to alot of 3 step drops, this also helps my game alot as I have to defend a lot less field. Kirwin is suggesting taking the pass rush out of the equation by the Pats choosing to take the deep ball out of the equation. This may not be a bad trade-off. Particularly if he is sending 4 WRs to the line he is pretty much taking the running play off the table as well. Overall, when the Pats or whomever brings this formation out I am going to challenge my CB who is alone to press cover Moss (or whomever on other teams) and we are challenging their QB to throw the fade well. Even if we lose this fight it better be in the redzone for them because the one time their QB throws it light or we jump the route we are gonna get 6 the other way. 2. Down in the red zone, the fade route to a tall receiver really means the corner has to make a play on the ball and the rush will not be a factor before the fade is thrown. See above 3. Sometimes it's the jam of the corner on the receivers that sets up the pass rush. I am not sure what he means here. 4. Corey Webster is one of the corners on the Giants who supposedly is just average. I asked Giants GM Jerry Reese about Webster and his first comment was, "Did you see the interception against the Packers?" Pass rush and corner play work hand in hand, just like an offensive line and a running back or a QB and his receivers. I think this point shows how important the DL play is to good CB work. The Bills problems last year was not that the CBs sucked but that we got so few sacks and so little pressure. A solid rush dictates the game to the O and if the O attempt to combat the rush by overloading the field to one side or taking the deep throw and the running game out of their arsenal then mission accomplished by the pass rush.
stuckincincy Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 I agree that a team needs good CB play to be successful. If your team has two bad players on D (whether they are CBs, Ss, LBs, or on DL) the other team will pick on them and kill you. A team definitely needs good play at CB in order to be adequate in the NFL. We will see. Perhaps we will see a host of teams this year run it down our throat again and not worrying about our feared Cover 2 pass defense, same as last season...
Alaska Darin Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 There is no such thing as a scheme that doesn't require good players. The Cover 2 doesn't require ELITE corners but there isn't a scheme that truly does because you can count the number of elite corners in NFL history without removing your second shoe. The problem with our defense has been the same for a decade: We don't have more than ONE consistant pass rush threat, which makes us very easy to dictate to between the 20s. Add a couple of guys who can actually make an offense scheme for them and all of the sudden everything changes. I think McCargo will look a ton better now that we added another tackle who can actually cross the line of scrimmage on occasion (thanks for not much, Mr. Tripplett). Posluzny is a pretty good blitzer who'll also benefit from McCargo but I don't see him as a real factor either. It's going to be interesting to see whether Crowell/Denney/Kelsay can step up another level in their pass rush now that the talent around them has increased.
obie_wan Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 There is no such thing as a scheme that doesn't require good players. The Cover 2 doesn't require ELITE corners but there isn't a scheme that truly does because you can count the number of elite corners in NFL history without removing your second shoe. The problem with our defense has been the same for a decade: We don't have more than ONE consistant pass rush threat, which makes us very easy to dictate to between the 20s. Add a couple of guys who can actually make an offense scheme for them and all of the sudden everything changes. I think McCargo will look a ton better now that we added another tackle who can actually cross the line of scrimmage on occasion (thanks for not much, Mr. Tripplett). Posluzny is a pretty good blitzer who'll also benefit from McCargo but I don't see him as a real factor either. It's going to be interesting to see whether Crowell/Denney/Kelsay can step up another level in their pass rush now that the talent around them has increased. Bills need a playmaker at LB.
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