Derrick Harvey

[Dibs]

I'm sure there are. I'd also point out poor lb play. The dropoff in coverage skills especially at mlb. Say what you want but Flecther-Baker was great in that area, despite his height. Losing Clements hurt a lot more then people are willing to admit. Same goes for Ko Simpson. The corner/safety depth was attrocious. Even with those issues though. Even if Stroud turns out to be all that. I don't see Kelsay/Denney as major contributers, or valuable starters. Schobel is over 30, and our only legit pass rusher. I'd like to have some ends, who have excellent closing burst. Not just ends who can get there, if the secondary, and lb's do their job in coverage.

I guess my point is that considering all of those factors you listed(assuming we fix some of it with Poz, Mitchell, Simpson etc).....plus the potential for some actual push up the middle with Stroud, Johnson & an improved McCargo.....the DEs are probably good enough to see us inside the top 10 in sacks again this year. This is not to say a good young pass rushing DE would not be a valuable addition.....just that it is probably more of a luxury at this point compared to other areas of concern.

[Gordio]

You should check him out in the Michigan game against Jake Long, he looked like he never had a chance. Not worth an 11th round pick.

 

 

I remember the ESPN guys saying the same thing when Dwight Freeney was drafted by the colts, how he disappeared against Mckinnee & was a total non factor in that game his last year at Syracuse in the Orange Bowl against Miami. He turned out alright. Dont read too much into one game. That whole Florida defense took the day off against Michigan Jan 1st.

[Gordio]

That I can agree with. Improvement IS a must. However, I would be more inclined to give this group a chance to recover from a poor season, adding a middle rounder to serve as a rush specialist to bolster the position for '08. If its still a problem going into next year, that's when I would pull the trigger on a 1st rounder and go for the major overhaul.

 

Likewise, I'd also argue that its a must to improve upon the Bills 12 TD passes of a season ago by improving the putrid production at WR and TE. Given how bad this offense is, I do believe that a WR picked 11th overall will get many more opportunities to earn a starting job and make plays this year, so unless their actual draft grades are badly unbalanced, I think that a player like Sweed or Kelly would probably provide more value at least for the next season or two than Harvey.

 

The fastest way we are going to beat the patriots as long a Tom Brady is heading the ship over there is to get after him with your front four & hit him. If Harvey is there at 11, I hope the bills pounce on him. We could worry about receiver in round 2.

[Brandon]

The fastest way we are going to beat the patriots as long a Tom Brady is heading the ship over there is to get after him with your front four & hit him. If Harvey is there at 11, I hope the bills pounce on him. We could worry about receiver in round 2.

 

This team isn't going to win jack squat if they're scoring 15 points per game. We might get lucky and somehow beat the Pats once, but until this team has even an average NFL offense, I don't believe they'll ever consistently win more than 6-8 games per year.

[Gordio]

This team isn't going to win jack squat if they're scoring 15 points per game. We might get lucky and somehow beat the Pats once, but until this team has even an average NFL offense, I don't believe they'll ever consistently win more than 6-8 games per year.

 

 

I disagree. As the giants showed, the best way to beat the patriots is to get after him with your front four. We do not have guys that can do that right now. My reasoning on taking Harvey is the apparent dropoff in talent at the de position this year. I still think if we take Harvey with our first, we will be able to grab a guy like Sweed, Hardy or Doucete with our 2nd. I dont think the difference between those receivers & Malcolm Kelly are that different. I do think there is a big dropoff between a guy like Harvey & a guy like Grooves(sp) for Auburn which we maybe able to grab in the 2nd. I think Harvey is the pick, then you go receiver/te with your 2nd & 3rd.

[Brandon]

I disagree. As the giants showed, the best way to beat the patriots is to get after him with your front four. We do not have guys that can do that right now. My reasoning on taking Harvey is the apparent dropoff in talent at the de position this year. I still think if we take Harvey with our first, we will be able to grab a guy like Sweed, Hardy or Doucete with our 2nd. I dont think the difference between those receivers & Malcolm Kelly are that different. I do think there is a big dropoff between a guy like Harvey & a guy like Grooves(sp) for Auburn which we maybe able to grab in the 2nd. I think Harvey is the pick, then you go receiver/te with your 2nd & 3rd.

 

And I think that the only way that the Bills will ever become a consistent winner is by developing a balanced roster. Right now, they have anything but. This particular team isn't going to win with any consistency, especially year-to-year with its offense in its current state.

 

Look at the Bills 2003 and 2004 seasons if you need an example of what happens when a team with a good/great D also has an offense that can't get out of its own way. They won a grand total of 15 games in two years, despite having the league's 2nd ranked defense in total yards each season (5th and 8th respectively, in points allowed). This particular defense is not one DE from being as good as that one was, either.

[Gordio]

And I think that the only way that the Bills will ever become a consistent winner is by developing a balanced roster. Right now, they have anything but. This particular team isn't going to win with any consistency, especially year-to-year with its offense in its current state.

 

Look at the Bills 2003 and 2004 seasons if you need an example of what happens when a team with a good/great D also has an offense that can't get out of its own way. They won a grand total of 15 games in two years, despite having the league's 2nd ranked defense in total yards each season (5th and 8th respectively, in points allowed). This particular defense is not one DE from being as good as that one was, either.

 

 

Those defenses you refer to were an aging & highly overrated & did not create a whole lot of turnovers. You got to remember, if we plug Harvey in the mix, we are also adding Stroud, Mitchell & for all intents & purposes adding Poz & Simpson into the mix. It is like we are getting 5 new starters on defense. So no this defense is not one DE away from being top 10, but how about a DE, 2DTs, 2 lbs & a FS, which is essentially what they are going to be adding this year if they draft Harvey. I think they have a chance to be pretty good.

 

I got news for you, drafting Malcolm Kelly with the 11th pick isnt going to solve all the offensive problems either. IMHO, the quickest way this team is going to be able to compete with the elite teams of the league is build a powerhouse defense & sprinkle in some offense if they find the right players.

[colin]

i think harvey has the chops to be considered at the 11 spot, but you really need to be an expert and spend time with the players to figure if he is worth it vs a cb or a wr.

 

he's not vernon gholston or c long good, so it's not a no brainer. we have some beef on D now, if we spend a top 3 round pick on a DE we need a guy we can rotate in without our crop of DEs who can generate pressure consistently (with the rest of the line playing their roles of course, not tiny tim getting flipped over and the G and T all over aaron every snap). we need quicks and a guy who can play with leverage, flow to the ball, and get sacks/pressures. if he can do that then we should take him.

 

if he is lacking in any of those catagories he is not worth the 11th pick FOR US. a wr that might o.w. go 18th might be, since we have a horrible O and small WRs

[Brandon]

Those defenses you refer to were an aging & highly overrated & did not create a whole lot of turnovers. You got to remember, if we plug Harvey in the mix, we are also adding Stroud, Mitchell & for all intents & purposes adding Poz & Simpson into the mix. It is like we are getting 5 new starters on defense. So no this defense is not one DE away from being top 10, but how about a DE, 2DTs, 2 lbs & a FS, which is essentially what they are going to be adding this year if they draft Harvey. I think they have a chance to be pretty good.

 

I got news for you, drafting Malcolm Kelly with the 11th pick isnt going to solve all the offensive problems either. IMHO, the quickest way this team is going to be able to compete with the elite teams of the league is build a powerhouse defense & sprinkle in some offense if they find the right players.

 

You're right, they were a bit overrated, but those defenses were also a lot better than what the Bills have now. I also think you're right about another point...there's already reason to believe that this Bills defense will be a lot better than it was a season ago. Lets see what they can do before we start pouring in resources that may not be necessary.

 

And I've never said that Malcolm Kelly will solve all of the problems on this team's offense (I'm not even sure I'd pick him). He won't. But you've got to start somewhere.

[Brandon]

i think harvey has the chops to be considered at the 11 spot, but you really need to be an expert and spend time with the players to figure if he is worth it vs a cb or a wr.

 

he's not vernon gholston or c long good, so it's not a no brainer. we have some beef on D now, if we spend a top 3 round pick on a DE we need a guy we can rotate in without our crop of DEs who can generate pressure consistently (with the rest of the line playing their roles of course, not tiny tim getting flipped over and the G and T all over aaron every snap). we need quicks and a guy who can play with leverage, flow to the ball, and get sacks/pressures. if he can do that then we should take him.

 

if he is lacking in any of those catagories he is not worth the 11th pick FOR US. a wr that might o.w. go 18th might be, since we have a horrible O and small WRs

 

The only way that I'd take the guy that high is if I thought he were a difference maker. I don't. He's a solid first round DE prospect, but I think that the Bills can get much more bang for their draft day buck with a WR or even CB selection. They're going to get more opportunities and they'll probably be a much bigger improvement than the guy they replace.

 

At this point, I have not completely made up my mind exactly who they should pick, however.

[Gordio]

The only way that I'd take the guy that high is if I thought he were a difference maker. I don't. He's a solid first round DE prospect, but I think that the Bills can get much more bang for their draft day buck with a WR or even CB selection. They're going to get more opportunities and they'll probably be a much bigger improvement than the guy they replace.

 

At this point, I have not completely made up my mind exactly who they should pick, however.

 

 

I do see your point. You do have to start somewhere & this offense is sorely missing some parts. I would not be surprised at all if they actually took a CB with the 11 pick.

[Brandon]

Nor would I. I've never been a fan of first round CBs, but I must admit, I would not be upset in the slightest if they selected Rogers-Cromarite.

[Kelly the Dog]

Did you not read my post?

 

Ryan Denney

2008: $2.3 million, 2009: $2.4 million, 2010: Free Agent

 

Aaron Schobel

2008: $1.5 million, 2009: $3.5 million, 2010: $6.025 million, 2011-2012: $6.5 million, 2013: $8.5 million, 2014: Free Agent

Probley be cut or re-work deal in 2010ish

 

Chris Kelsay

2008: $1.4 million, 2009: $3 million, 2010: $3.7 million, 2011: Free Agent

 

Last years 11th pick

$16.655 million contract. The deal includes $12 million in guarantees. 2008: $370,000, 2009: $500,000, 2010: $760,000, 2011: $900,000, 2012: $900,000 (Voidable Year), 2013: Free Agent

So you're just going to ignore the 11 million already paid to Kelsay in signing and roster bonuses for this year, the bonus given to Denney, and the 21 million in guarantees given to Schobel that aren't counted in your little list? (Schobel signed a 7 year, $50 million deal with only about 33 million showing in those salaries, and the first four years are guaranteed)

[Gordio]

Nor would I. I've never been a fan of first round CBs, but I must admit, I would not be upset in the slightest if they selected Rogers-Cromarite.

 

 

I think the closer we get to the draft, people are going to start realizing that the best value for the 11th pick is going to be a CB. Cromarite would be my pick also.

[bills_red]

So you're just going to ignore the 11 million already paid to Kelsay in signing and roster bonuses for this year, the bonus given to Denney, and the 21 million in guarantees given to Schobel that aren't counted in your little list? (Schobel signed a 7 year, $50 million deal with only about 33 million showing in those salaries, and the first four years are guaranteed)

 

They paid Kelsay that LAST year not this

Denney

3/23/2006: Signed a four-year contract. 2008: $2.3 million, 2009: $2.4 million, 2010: Free Agent

So what bonus?????

Schobel

8/24/2007: Signed a seven-year, $50.5 million contract. The deal contains $21 million in guarantees, including Schobel's first four base salaries. 2008: $1.5 million, 2009: $3.5 million, 2010: $6.025 million, 2011-2012: $6.5 million, 2013: $8.5 million, 2014: Free Agent

Like I said will be cut or will re-work his deal in 2010ish cuz he will be 32ish and will start sucking, plus in 2010 $6 million might be cheap for him.

 

So yea wow what a lot of money, wow

[Kelly the Dog]

They paid Kelsay that LAST year not this

Denney

3/23/2006: Signed a four-year contract. 2008: $2.3 million, 2009: $2.4 million, 2010: Free Agent

So what bonus?????

Schobel

8/24/2007: Signed a seven-year, $50.5 million contract. The deal contains $21 million in guarantees, including Schobel's first four base salaries. 2008: $1.5 million, 2009: $3.5 million, 2010: $6.025 million, 2011-2012: $6.5 million, 2013: $8.5 million, 2014: Free Agent

Like I said will be cut or will re-work his deal in 2010ish cuz he will be 32ish and will start sucking, plus in 2010 $6 million might be cheap for him.

 

So yea wow what a lot of money, wow

So the answer is yes, you're ignoring it? The money that virtually everyone counts in contracts these days is the guaranteed money. Just because the guy gets paid a small amount in salary this year but got 11 million in cash last year just so he can have a small salary this year doesn't in any way imply the team doesn't spend a lot at his position, like you are saying. The Bills have more money tied up in DEs than any other position.

 

I am not completely against taking a DE #1, if he is great. But your argument is extremely misleading, and surely not how the Bills themselves look at how much money they are spending on the DL in general and DEs in particular.

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

I disagree. As the giants showed, the best way to beat the patriots is to get after him with your front four. We do not have guys that can do that right now. My reasoning on taking Harvey is the apparent dropoff in talent at the de position this year. I still think if we take Harvey with our first, we will be able to grab a guy like Sweed, Hardy or Doucete with our 2nd. I dont think the difference between those receivers & Malcolm Kelly are that different. I do think there is a big dropoff between a guy like Harvey & a guy like Grooves(sp) for Auburn which we maybe able to grab in the 2nd. I think Harvey is the pick, then you go receiver/te with your 2nd & 3rd.

 

I think Early Doucet would be the exact kind of receiver that fits Edwards game as a qb, as well as being the kind of receiver the bills would love. Quick off the line, physical work the middle of the field type. Very willing blocker. As well as great after the catch. Complimentary type wr. The key difference being like you said. The dropoff after Harvey is too big, compared to the smaller dropoff you're going to get from the dropoff from sweed/kelly to say Earl Bennett/Doucet/Jerome Simpson

[Alaska Darin]

And I think that the only way that the Bills will ever become a consistent winner is by developing a balanced roster. Right now, they have anything but. T

Which side of the ball doesn't suck?

[Brandon]

Which side of the ball doesn't suck?

 

I'm not entirely sure that the defense does. They haven't proven it on the field yet, but with the offseason additions and the return of a few injured players, I don't think they're going to be anything as terrible as we've seen at times over the last two years.

[robertpaul49]

I think a lot of people on this board are missing the point. The Bills can only win a Super Bowl by having better players than other teams, especially the Patriots. I think it would be idiotic if the Bills selected a less talented player because it is a position of supposed greater need. It is hard to get quality defensive ends, especially in later rounds; however, the Bills have to have a play maker, and I really do not want to see them reach like they did with Whitner. If the Bills absolutely need to draft a wide receiver, they should trade down to get more picks.

 

As far as offense vs. defense, I am sure the Bills are going to go heavy on offense in this draft, but if a better player is available on defense, I think they have to select him. Both sides of the ball were really bad, hence the 7-9 record. It was a team effort.