SHOUTBOX MONSTER! Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 However, I don't think this is TGs fault. He basically saved the team. I would say Darcy has his head in the sand. It's not Tommy's fault at all. Darcy and Quinn are the ones to blame. Why anyone would think that TG would have any input in the on ice product is insane. He didn't even follow the sport before he bought the swordsmen. This thread is absurd.
Live&DieBillsFootball Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 As for the play returning to pre-lockout....it was headed that way by the 2nd half of last year. The '06 playoffs were called loose, but the Sabres had more grit then with Dumont, Grier, Pyatt, and McKee. After the All-Star numbers came in last year, and it was shown that reruns of Essence With Emeril outdrew the All-star game in viewers, and that was with 30% of the viewers from Buffalo.....Bettman gave the order to go to a more traditional game. While fans were showing up to the Arenas in terms of revenue, the real revenue stream, TV contracts, were in the dumps as fans couldn't even bother to try and find Versus on their system, if it was even carried in the first place. The NHL was actually losing long term revenue opportunities by trying to get too fancy. Instead of understanding what was happening, the Sabres closed their eyes, crossed their fingers and hoped for the best. You still hear them whine about how games are called. They got lucky with the rule changes for 18 months, then didn't adapt back to a more traditional game. As for signing Drury, Briere, Campbell, DuMont, McKee, (not Grier since he was gone no matter what)....true, they couldn't afford everyone at the prices the players were eventually signed to. BUT....if Regier had any foresight, all could currently be on the team. He makes trades for players that turn out to be good deals, yet he doesn't take advantage of that ability by signing guys to long term deals ahead of their breakout. If you are so confident the guy is better than what you are giving up....put your money where your mouth is. Darcy would look brilliant if he had any balls. He just sits back and watches. McKee...offered to sign for 4 years $10 million before his last season here. Ended up leaving for $4 mil per year. Briere....offered to sign for $5 million a year long term before his arbitration. Sabres said no. Briere wins case. Sabres panic and start signing all arbitration cases to contracts to avoid the process. Afinigenov, Connolly, Kotalik....$2.5-3 million each per year. WHich leads to: Dumont....offered to sign for $2.5 per year long term. Only player Sabres take to arbitration. He gets awarded and has to walk after Sabres opened the piggy bank out of fear. Dumont signed for $2 million at the end of free agency when teams were tapped out, but now just signed an extension for $4 million per. Drury...agreed to verbal 4 year $22 million. Sabres dallied around for 2 weeks as Drury went on a hot streak and risked injury as he led the Sabres to a 5-1 record by the time the front office came to him with a written contract. He said..no thanks..we'll talk later, as his stock continued to rise. The Sabres could have very well used that information of what Drury would sign for, and shopped around for prices on other potential free agents, or even shopped for a trade knowing they could commit a price on a contract to another club. Drury ends up signing for $7 mill per with NY. Campbell....offered to sign 5 years $25 mil before the season. Sabres balk, but offer same amount 7 months later after another AllStar game. If all these guys were in the fold, we could have let Vanek walk for 4 #1 picks, or there is a good chance Lowe wouldn't toss up a hail mary because we weren't in a position of weakness. In summary...here are the numbers we could have all of these players under contract for this year, and what they actually make. McKee $2.5 $4.0 Dumont $2.5 $4.0 Briere $5.0 $10.0 Drury $5.5 $7.0 Campbell $2.0/$5.0 next year.......will make $6-7 mil Vanek 4#1's $10 million Who would you rather have? Vanek, Connolly, Kotalik and Afinogenov? or: Drury, Briere, Campbell, Dumont, McKee, 4 1st round picks? Regier+Quinn chose Door#1 Good Post! Most of the problems are lack of foresight. Darcy never saw the big change to long-term contracts until it was too late and then sat on his hands. I don't know how much was TG's fault or if he is just a new fan of the game who gave all of the decision making to his so-called experts. Whoever was in charge made some of the worst decisions in the history of salary caps. A couple of other points: Whoever made the decision to share Rochester was also very short-sighted. We could have had a lot more prospects nearing the NHL instead of spending an extra year in college or junior hockey. Remember a couple of years ago when the Sabres had Ryan Miller, Biron & Noronen. For the last 2 years we have had Miller and the cheapest guy they can find as a backup. Then they make the decision to have Miller play every game. I just feel that if they had a decent backup, Miller would have been better if he had played less than 60 games. His numbers have really suffered in March when we needed him the most.
dave mcbride Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Looking at the Sabres free fall, I have to look at Ralphie and think they guy ain't all bad. Sure he's made a few bad moves over the years but he's never scuttled his team in one season like Tommy Boy has. The Titanic sank slower. PTR Not that I care much about hockey, but correct me if I'm wrong: didn't the Sabres make the playoffs the two years previous to this one??
PromoTheRobot Posted April 1, 2008 Author Posted April 1, 2008 Let's see: they let 2 of our best players walk last year (for nothing), they signed an overrated player to an ungodly amount of money (talk about painting yourself into a corner!), they continue to pay Connolly while he spends more time in a hospital bed than the ice, and looking towards the future, they fired all of their scouts. However, I don't think this is TGs fault. He basically saved the team. I would say Darcy has his head in the sand. Regier is a good GM. His hands are tied by the "pointy-haired Dilbert mananger" a.k.a. Larry Quinn. If anyone has his head in the sand it's Tom Golisano. PTR
PromoTheRobot Posted April 1, 2008 Author Posted April 1, 2008 I'm not pleased with what the sabres did over the last 12 months, but theres one simple thing to be addressed: I have yet to see anyone, and i mean anyone, explain to me, or come up with a reasonable plan, where we could have kept all the "players we should have kept", kept all of our young players, and still stayed under the salary cap. And a big overlooked reason as to why the Sabres didnt do so hot this year is the return of boring ass pre-lockout hockey. Watch the playoffs this year, and it'll seem like 10 years ago. With regards to gameplay and salary structure, it only took a bit over 2 years for the NHL to return to its old ways. No one said they had to keep all their players. That's impossible. What they could have done is handled the negotiations with their best players better. Guys like Drury, Briere, and Campbell liked Buffalo and wanted to win. If they believed the Sabres were committed to winning a cup, they would have taken some discount to stay. Instead you have Tom Golisano proclaim on Hockey Night In Canada "I'm not in the business of losing money." Bravo, Tom. Way to inspire the troops. I mean Golisano never even tried to keep his best players. I'm not even sure he knows who his best players were (thanks likely to Larry Quinn.) Golisano built Paychex by treating his employees as dispensable interchangeable parts. The idea that it's not the same in sports never occurred to him. Do you think Sabres fans would accept ticket price increases if the team was a solid cup contender each year? Well thanks to the Larry & Tom clown show, we'll never find out. PTR
ofiba Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Not that I care much about hockey, but correct me if I'm wrong: didn't the Sabres make the playoffs the two years previous to this one?? 2 Eastern conference finals appearances actually. How much do you think Bills fans would give up to make the playoffs, not to mention go the the AFC championship game 2 years in a row?
PromoTheRobot Posted April 1, 2008 Author Posted April 1, 2008 Regier+Quinn chose Door#1 Don't include Regier in equation. Quinn drives the bus. I believe if Regier had any authority, he would have signed those guys long ago. Regier is a smart GM. Larry Quinn is a douchebag that inexplicably got a chance to destroy the same franchise twice. PTR
PromoTheRobot Posted April 1, 2008 Author Posted April 1, 2008 It's not Tommy's fault at all. Darcy and Quinn are the ones to blame. Why anyone would think that TG would have any input in the on ice product is insane. He didn't even follow the sport before he bought the swordsmen. This thread is absurd. TG put the clamps on the wallet before the team lost a nickel, or before he even tried to raise ticket prices some to keep his best players...and he put Larry Quinn in charge. His biggest mistake. PTR
PromoTheRobot Posted April 1, 2008 Author Posted April 1, 2008 2 Eastern conference finals appearances actually. How much do you think Bills fans would give up to make the playoffs, not to mention go the the AFC championship game 2 years in a row? How would Bills fans feel if they went to the AFC Championship twice, and a new owner gutted the team? Keep in mind Golisano didn't build the Sabres into a contender. He bought it that way...then he broke it. PTR
WellDressed Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Ralph definitely forgot more about football than paychex will ever know about hockey.
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Drury...agreed to verbal 4 year $22 million. Sabres dallied around for 2 weeks as Drury went on a hot streak and risked injury as he led the Sabres to a 5-1 record by the time the front office came to him with a written contract. He said..no thanks..we'll talk later, as his stock continued to rise. The Sabres could have very well used that information of what Drury would sign for, and shopped around for prices on other potential free agents, or even shopped for a trade knowing they could commit a price on a contract to another club. Drury ends up signing for $7 mill per with NY. the way Drury explained it just after he signed with the NYR was that the team and him agreed during the 2007 season ($22M sounds about right) and was waiting for the Sabres to send him the final written version and the contract never came! CD interpreted that as they weren't serious, not that he wasn't willing to sign anymore for that figure. Maybe he was trying to spin it, but I'd be surprised if that was the case.
nodnarb Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Looking at the Sabres free fall, I have to look at Ralphie and think they guy ain't all bad. Sure he's made a few bad moves over the years but he's never scuttled his team in one season like Tommy Boy has. The Titanic sank slower. PTR Overboard. Ridiculous. Seriously. What the hell? Did anyone pay attention in those days? If you really think it's Golisano's "fault" for letting the defensive liability that is Briere walk (The same Briere that everyone hated at the end of the playoffs because he didn't have the impact fans expected) then you simply weren't paying attention. Likewise for Drury. Yes, his decision surprised Darcy and Larry. They acknowledged publicly that they were blindsided by his final move and also admitted that they probably handled his negotiation wrong. They owned that piece of it. Drury was gone weeks before that, and if you had watched the NYR playoff games you would have heard all the buzz about how the Sabres should "enjoy him while he lasts". These were comments from people inside the Rangers organization. The winks and nudges had already happened. Oh, but it's Golisano's fault. Riiiiight..... It seems that brains are literally falling out of fans heads these days. The emotional age of Sabres fans seems to have collectively reverted a decade, maybe two. And regarding Ralph, it sure is interesting that he's getting all this love here now...now that the national media is giving him a little bit of credit for his foresight back then during the CBA talks. Let's rewind this message board to those days. You'll see that most people here were laying into him, calling him senile, a joke, etc. You can lick your finger and hold it into the wind to determine which way (many) Buffalo fans' opinions will lean from one event to the next.
Dwight Drane Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 2 Eastern conference finals appearances actually. How much do you think Bills fans would give up to make the playoffs, not to mention go the the AFC championship game 2 years in a row? That is the obvious arguement. What we need to do now is look forward at what happens. Ralph made a mistake with Donahoe, but he admitted it was a mistake. The Sunday Night Broncos game to close out '05 was a disaster. It felt like you were in a war zone, being in the parking lot that night. People were angry, people were out for blood. It took 2 years to clean house and get a trustworthy system in place. I would be willing to give Golisano the same benefit of the doubt if he cleaned house. As it is now, if keeps the same system in place and they do not make the playoffs going forward, the support will evaporate. My prediction....the Bills will play in more rounds of the playoffs over the next 5 years than the Sabres if Golisano doesn't change philosophy. I love everything the Bills stand for...honesty, hard work, resilliance, the things that make up character. They are ready to explode with success. I am against everything the Sabres stand for...political cronieism, avoiding critics, passive on and off the ice, constant excuses and whining. They are on the verge of sinking to Adelphia levels if a change isn't made. Prediction #2....the Sabres are sold before the Bills are. Golisano may pull the parachute ripcord over the next 18 months.
Dwight Drane Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Don't include Regier in equation. Quinn drives the bus. I believe if Regier had any authority, he would have signed those guys long ago. Regier is a smart GM. Larry Quinn is a douchebag that inexplicably got a chance to destroy the same franchise twice. PTR I have said that I would respect Regier more if he left the team. I know how frustrating it is to have to run a system with one hand tied behind your back. Sooner or later you get so tired of it you have to move on if you aren't just along for the ride yourself. If Quinn gets shipped off to Sabres Siberia, I would be willing to back off of Darcy and see what happens.
Lurker Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Looking at the Sabres free fall, I have to look at Ralphie and think they guy ain't all bad. Sure he's made a few bad moves over the years but he's never scuttled his team in one season like Tommy Boy has. The Titanic sank slower. PTR Frankly, I'm getting tired of this 'entitlement' attitude about the Sabres. They've had one of the most successful runs of any pro sports franchise over the past 5-6 years, and now that a down year has hit, fans are bitching about ownership. The Drury exit was indeed a clusterfuk, but guess what--sh-- happens and life isn't fair. The NHL is still a garage league made up of haves and have-nots. Guess which one Buffalo is. 2005-06 Payroll....$28.5 million 2006-07 Payroll....$40.0 million 2007-08 Payroll....$45.9 million
nodnarb Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Frankly, I'm getting tired of this 'entitlement' attitude about the Sabres. They've had one of the most successful runs of any pro sports franchise over the past 5-6 years, and now that a down year has hit, fans are bitching about ownership. The Drury exit was indeed a clusterfuk, but guess what--sh-- happens and life isn't fair. The NHL is still a garage league made up of haves and have-nots. Guess which one Buffalo is. Thanks for stirring in some sabre sanity into this pot.
Pyrite Gal Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 It's not Tommy's fault at all. Darcy and Quinn are the ones to blame. Why anyone would think that TG would have any input in the on ice product is insane. He didn't even follow the sport before he bought the swordsmen. This thread is absurd. I do not think many people feel that Golisano has any direct say so over the on ice product at all. I think they feel he does have direct control over bringing Quinn in to have direct authority over the budget and put together the on ice product though. The absurd thing is to draw a line that does not give Golisano his fair share of the blame for depending upon someone with the mismanagement talents Quinn has shown since way back when he oversaw the the Muckler/Nolan idiocy and oversaw the hardest working team in the NHL spiral down from its NO GOAL Stanley Cup final loss to its current situation. The fact that this team won the President's Trophy and lost in the Eastern Conference finals the last two years is reasonably not judged by many fans as something that excuses the current spiral but instead simply means we are likely going through the same pain as Quinn has overseem some spectacularly bad calls. Not signing at least some of the difference makers on this team when they either publicly or by rumor could have been signed for far less than they eventually got is simply a sign of really poor reading of the market. To do this is why Quinn gets paid the big bucks and calling for his ouster is not unreasonable for a fan at all.
Dwight Drane Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Frankly, I'm getting tired of this 'entitlement' attitude about the Sabres. They've had one of the most successful runs of any pro sports franchise over the past 5-6 years, and now that a down year has hit, fans are bitching about ownership. The Drury exit was indeed a clusterfuk, but guess what--sh-- happens and life isn't fair. The NHL is still a garage league made up of haves and have-nots. Guess which one Buffalo is. Really??????????????? Here's a little timeline that might show where the success came from: '98 Conference Finals '99 Stanley Cup '00 Playoffs -------------------------------------------------------- Hasek Traded!!!!! -------------------------------------------------------- '01 No Playoffs 10th in conference '02 No playoffs 72 pts '03 No Playoffs 85 pts -------------------------------------------------------- Rules Changes!!! -------------------------------------------------------- '05 ECF '06 ECF -------------------------------------------------------- Captains Walk!!!! -------------------------------------------------------- '07 No playoffs 10th? in conference Now, two conference finals coming directly after rules changes while missing the playoffs in the other 4 years doesn't really smack of a dynasty to me. Did you notice that other guy who walked out of town for pretty much nothing in the summer of '01? Well, I think he had a bit to do with some of that success early on. I know he was washed up......that's why 7 years later he is 23-9-3 with Detroit.
Gordio Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 I'm not pleased with what the sabres did over the last 12 months, but theres one simple thing to be addressed: I have yet to see anyone, and i mean anyone, explain to me, or come up with a reasonable plan, where we could have kept all the "players we should have kept", kept all of our young players, and still stayed under the salary cap. And a big overlooked reason as to why the Sabres didnt do so hot this year is the return of boring ass pre-lockout hockey. Watch the playoffs this year, and it'll seem like 10 years ago. With regards to gameplay and salary structure, it only took a bit over 2 years for the NHL to return to its old ways. I agree partly with this because anybody that has watched the games this year it is pretty obvious that they are letting alot of the clutching & grabbing go again. However, with that being said, the lack of forsight with the Sabres with respect to their free agents or free agents to be is mind boggling. Common sense would dictate the closer players get to free agency, the higher the price is going to go up. Reports state they could of had drury locked up for a little over 22 mill over 5yrs & could of had briere locked up for 5yrs & around $25 mill 2 summers ago & thru that following fall. This past offseason could not of went any worse for the Sabres & if you dont believe that you simply have the rose colored glasses on. Not only did we lose briere & drury but the Sabres were backed in the corner & pretty much were forced to pay Vanek that ridiculous contract. How much better would people be feeling right now about this team if we would of locked up briere & drury & received the 3 or 4 1st round draft picks that Edmonton would have to fork over for Vanek. The Vanek contract is going to dictate for the next few years what the sabres can and can not do. You pay a contract like that for a top 5-10 player. Vanek is good, but he is not in that caliber of player. There are some troubling things that the Sabres have done in the last year or so that should have the fans very concerned. Cutting the scouting department in half, splitting a farm team with Florida. These are not good signs my friends.
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