Dr. Trooth Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 OK... all this yadyada about the Bills needing a TE to take the offense to another level is a lot of Whooey. And.. one poster went so far as to say the last 6 SB winners drafted a TE in Rd. 1... I say, so what? Shockey was a DNP in the last one, and TB has never drafted a TE #1... so, that post doesn't stand the litmus test, period. The one thing common to that the winners of the last 6 SBs had was a competent QB in combination with very good defenses. That's it. Now... getting back to the TE (sort of). If I've learned one thing it is that the Bills play in probably the harshest weather environments in the league... when you take into condsideration all of the elements. It is necessary to have a passing game to get to the next level. I understand. But, as you've seen many times before, the deeper you get into the season, the less functional the passing game becomes in poor weather. No tight end is going to change that in any way, shape or form. Also, you have a head coach that will never have an aggressive offensive philosophy. There is a direct correllation to the agressiveness of Jauron's offense and the performance of his defense. The better the defense performs, the more aggressive the offense will be... to a point. Jauron's MO is, and has always been to shorten the game using an aggressive defense, special teams, and T.O.P offense, grinding it out a yard at a time and not a lot of verticality... control the clock... and keep the defense fresh. Jauron is who he is, and that is what he is... it won't change. So even if the Bills had Tony Gonzales and/or Antonio Gates at tight end... they wouldn't produce to the degree they produce now in the Bills offense... dink and dunk, gash with Marshawn. The Bills TEs, historically have been blockers first and receivers 2nd. The Bills learned their lesson when they drafted "down field" tight ends Rueben Gant and Tony Hunter in the first round. Both were totally worthless. Lonnie Johnson was a 2nd rounder that was supposed to give the Bills a down field presence. That didn't happen... we all lived through that and Lonnie was our friggin whipping boy. Well deserved. Even McKellar of the KGun fame never caught much more than 40 balls in a season... not many TDs if I recall... and that was in the pinnacle of Kelly and company... serious offensive production. Metzelaars, the 6'7" plodding TE caught 68 balls in 93... more than any other TE in Bills history. NO Bills TE has come close since then or before. Even then, it was the Bills 3rd TE... in short yardage that stole the show, catching quite a few TDs in goal line situations... the beloved Butch "Shake,Rattle, &" Rolle! So this fantasy of some sexy Kellen Winslow, Tony Gonzales TE being the Bills missing link is nonsnense. What they need is just the lunch pail type that can block like hell, find the seams, and catch the damn ball when called upon to do so. The three best for the Bills at that, IMO were Paul Costa, Mark Brammer, and Pete Metzelaars. They all brought a physical presence, could get open, and catch when thrown to. Two things that will make the difference in whether or not this offense goes from dreadful to the middle of the pack this year, is this... and neither one is the TE. It is how well the defense performs and how much better Trent Edwards gets. The defense has added some moxie in free agency plus the return of several injured players, so it looks like they may hold up their end. That means Edwards is the key. The honeymoon is over. Trent has Parrish, Evans, and Lynch as weapons, and a pretty good Oline. He needs to make a quantum leap for the Bills to even think playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 This team needs a legitimate TE. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Some might say that when the weather turns bad, short passes become vital, and a pass catching tight end could be a real boon to the offense in those times. Some people might also say that a pass catching TE can be a great asset to a young developing QB. But, considering how well our offense has functioned over the past 8-10 years (1st 8 games of 2002 not withstanding), and how well our TEs have played, and how well our QBs have played, i can see why theres no need to upgrade the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamOnDan Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 I've been one of the people that really want a wr in rd 1. I definately see the value in getting your guy when it comes down to choosing a 6-2 to 6-6 tall wr that most likely won't be there in rd 2. I like the idea of drafting another position in rd 1 after seeing how good the te prospects look. My original theory was that there wasn't going to be a te good enough to make an impact after rd 2. So I thought that rd2 was almost a must for a TE since the Bills would be very likely to have a choice from 2 out of the top 3 te in rd 2. Most likely there are 3-4 te drafted by our 3rd rd pick and you can bet that somebody good slips to rd 3. Since the Te class seems so deep I now think that it might be a really good thing if we draft best player available in rd 1, 4,5,6,7. The problem is that it really puts a lot of pressure on getting production out of whoever slips to rd 2. Realistically 1-3 out of, Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, Mario Manningham, Early Doucet, and Andre Caldwell could very well slip to the 2nd rd. Especially if the Bills don't draft a wr in rd 1. I'm very happy with any of the above players. As long as the Bills definately draft the best Te on the board in rd 3. The entire rest of the draft could be best player available. Lets take a look at NFL.com te prospects: http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/john-carlson?id=1966 http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/martellus-bennett?id=1062 http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/fred-davis?id=216 http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/dustin-keller?id=1074 http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/martin-rucker?id=308 http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/jermichael-finley?id=1072 http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/jacob-tamme?id=324 http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/kellen-davis?id=1066 I'd be all about drafting 2 te this year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Like I said....every year we go into it saying we need a quality TE....then as the draft approaches somebody out there downplays it....and then when we are sitting watching the playoffs with our Bills not in it talk about needed a quality TE and how every team in the playoffs has one..... It is a never ending cycle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Trooth Posted March 31, 2008 Author Share Posted March 31, 2008 This team needs a legitimate TE. End of story. What/who, is a legitimate TE? What if the Bills end up with one? What then? How will we know he's legit? They won't utilize the TE like Tony G. or Antonio G. Does legitimate mean he will have to catch 68 Balls a season like Meztelaars and average 9.0 YPC in doing so? If that's the case... you won't live to see a Bills TE do that again... 93 is as good as it gets. The Bills TEs caught 56 Balls and 5 TDs last year... and you're bitching about TE performance? It's a dink and dunk offense... it is what it is and it may get a tad more aggressive... but not at the expense of T.O.P. ain't gonna happen Hey, but you can dream... you're OK with that. Me, I like to keep it real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 What/who, is a legitimate TE? What if the Bills end up with one? What then? How will we know he's legit? They won't utilize the TE like Tony G. or Antonio G. Does legitimate mean he will have to catch 68 Balls a season like Meztelaars and average 9.0 YPC in doing so? If that's the case... you won't live to see a Bills TE do that again... 93 is as good as it gets. The Bills TEs caught 56 Balls and 5 TDs last year... and you're bitching about TE performance? It's a dink and dunk offense... it is what it is and it may get a tad more aggressive... but not at the expense of T.O.P. ain't gonna happen Hey, but you can dream... you're OK with that. Me, I like to keep it real. Yeah, you keep it real. Real mediocre. For me? No thanks. TE is no lower than the 3rd biggest need on this team IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 OK... all this yadyada about the Bills needing a TE to take the offense to another level is a lot of Whooey. And.. one poster went so far as to say the last 6 SB winners drafted a TE in Rd. 1... I say, so what? Shockey was a DNP in the last one, and TB has never drafted a TE #1... so, that post doesn't stand the litmus test, period. The one thing common to that the winners of the last 6 SBs had was a competent QB in combination with very good defenses. That's it. Now... getting back to the TE (sort of). If I've learned one thing it is that the Bills play in probably the harshest weather environments in the league... when you take into condsideration all of the elements. It is necessary to have a passing game to get to the next level. I understand. But, as you've seen many times before, the deeper you get into the season, the less functional the passing game becomes in poor weather. No tight end is going to change that in any way, shape or form. Also, you have a head coach that will never have an aggressive offensive philosophy. There is a direct correllation to the agressiveness of Jauron's offense and the performance of his defense. The better the defense performs, the more aggressive the offense will be... to a point. Jauron's MO is, and has always been to shorten the game using an aggressive defense, special teams, and T.O.P offense, grinding it out a yard at a time and not a lot of verticality... control the clock... and keep the defense fresh. Jauron is who he is, and that is what he is... it won't change. So even if the Bills had Tony Gonzales and/or Antonio Gates at tight end... they wouldn't produce to the degree they produce now in the Bills offense... dink and dunk, gash with Marshawn. The Bills TEs, historically have been blockers first and receivers 2nd. The Bills learned their lesson when they drafted "down field" tight ends Rueben Gant and Tony Hunter in the first round. Both were totally worthless. Lonnie Johnson was a 2nd rounder that was supposed to give the Bills a down field presence. That didn't happen... we all lived through that and Lonnie was our friggin whipping boy. Well deserved. Even McKellar of the KGun fame never caught much more than 40 balls in a season... not many TDs if I recall... and that was in the pinnacle of Kelly and company... serious offensive production. Metzelaars, the 6'7" plodding TE caught 68 balls in 93... more than any other TE in Bills history. NO Bills TE has come close since then or before. Even then, it was the Bills 3rd TE... in short yardage that stole the show, catching quite a few TDs in goal line situations... the beloved Butch "Shake,Rattle, &" Rolle! So this fantasy of some sexy Kellen Winslow, Tony Gonzales TE being the Bills missing link is nonsnense. What they need is just the lunch pail type that can block like hell, find the seams, and catch the damn ball when called upon to do so. The three best for the Bills at that, IMO were Paul Costa, Mark Brammer, and Pete Metzelaars. They all brought a physical presence, could get open, and catch when thrown to. Two things that will make the difference in whether or not this offense goes from dreadful to the middle of the pack this year, is this... and neither one is the TE. It is how well the defense performs and how much better Trent Edwards gets. The defense has added some moxie in free agency plus the return of several injured players, so it looks like they may hold up their end. That means Edwards is the key. The honeymoon is over. Trent has Parrish, Evans, and Lynch as weapons, and a pretty good Oline. He needs to make a quantum leap for the Bills to even think playoffs. You do know that thread was a gag right? I guess not. Anyway, I agree with you. A great pass catching TE is not a necessity. It's a luxury. I'd say OL, QB, DL, RB, CB, LB and S are all more important. I wouldn't mind if Buffalo went into the season with their current TE's. I don't think there are any game breaking TE's in this years draft and a second receiver in this draft would serve them better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock'em Sock'em Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 I don't recall anyone suggesting we draft a TE in the 1st round. I do like Brad Cottam in the 3rd. (6-7/270/4.68/36.5). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Trooth Posted March 31, 2008 Author Share Posted March 31, 2008 Yeah, you keep it real. Real mediocre. For me? No thanks. TE is no lower than the 3rd biggest need on this team IMO. Dude... you just don't get it. The Bills could start Jesus H. Christ and it would make just a marginal difference, unless he could change the bad weather into sunny and 70. The Bills don't play home game in that kind of weather after mid October. Plug in Todd Heap, Tony Gonzales, and Antonio Gates as the Bills three TEs... all that's going to do is make Marshawn suffer from the laack of blocking from the TE and result in more 3 and outs (which Jauron loves). TEs in Buffalo are an after thought. They are good for the dink and dunk and occasional 13 yarder for a 1st down. Ralph is not going to pay top TE$$ for mediocre TE utilization... end of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Bills fan Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Some might say that when the weather turns bad, short passes become vital, and a pass catching tight end could be a real boon to the offense in those times. Some people might also say that a pass catching TE can be a great asset to a young developing QB. But, considering how well our offense has functioned over the past 8-10 years (1st 8 games of 2002 not withstanding), and how well our TEs have played, and how well our QBs have played, i can see why theres no need to upgrade the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 OK... all this yadyada about the Bills needing a TE to take the offense to another level is a lot of Whooey. And.. one poster went so far as to say the last 6 SB winners drafted a TE in Rd. 1... I say, so what? Shockey was a DNP in the last one, and TB has never drafted a TE #1... so, that post doesn't stand the litmus test, period. The one thing common to that the winners of the last 6 SBs had was a competent QB in combination with very good defenses. That's it. Now... getting back to the TE (sort of). If I've learned one thing it is that the Bills play in probably the harshest weather environments in the league... when you take into condsideration all of the elements. It is necessary to have a passing game to get to the next level. I understand. But, as you've seen many times before, the deeper you get into the season, the less functional the passing game becomes in poor weather. No tight end is going to change that in any way, shape or form. Also, you have a head coach that will never have an aggressive offensive philosophy. There is a direct correllation to the agressiveness of Jauron's offense and the performance of his defense. The better the defense performs, the more aggressive the offense will be... to a point. Jauron's MO is, and has always been to shorten the game using an aggressive defense, special teams, and T.O.P offense, grinding it out a yard at a time and not a lot of verticality... control the clock... and keep the defense fresh. Jauron is who he is, and that is what he is... it won't change. So even if the Bills had Tony Gonzales and/or Antonio Gates at tight end... they wouldn't produce to the degree they produce now in the Bills offense... dink and dunk, gash with Marshawn. The Bills TEs, historically have been blockers first and receivers 2nd. The Bills learned their lesson when they drafted "down field" tight ends Rueben Gant and Tony Hunter in the first round. Both were totally worthless. Lonnie Johnson was a 2nd rounder that was supposed to give the Bills a down field presence. That didn't happen... we all lived through that and Lonnie was our friggin whipping boy. Well deserved. Even McKellar of the KGun fame never caught much more than 40 balls in a season... not many TDs if I recall... and that was in the pinnacle of Kelly and company... serious offensive production. Metzelaars, the 6'7" plodding TE caught 68 balls in 93... more than any other TE in Bills history. NO Bills TE has come close since then or before. Even then, it was the Bills 3rd TE... in short yardage that stole the show, catching quite a few TDs in goal line situations... the beloved Butch "Shake,Rattle, &" Rolle! So this fantasy of some sexy Kellen Winslow, Tony Gonzales TE being the Bills missing link is nonsnense. What they need is just the lunch pail type that can block like hell, find the seams, and catch the damn ball when called upon to do so. The three best for the Bills at that, IMO were Paul Costa, Mark Brammer, and Pete Metzelaars. They all brought a physical presence, could get open, and catch when thrown to. Two things that will make the difference in whether or not this offense goes from dreadful to the middle of the pack this year, is this... and neither one is the TE. It is how well the defense performs and how much better Trent Edwards gets. The defense has added some moxie in free agency plus the return of several injured players, so it looks like they may hold up their end. That means Edwards is the key. The honeymoon is over. Trent has Parrish, Evans, and Lynch as weapons, and a pretty good Oline. He needs to make a quantum leap for the Bills to even think playoffs. I wouldn't be surprised to see the bills deploy 4 tight ends in their offense. Dick and Trent don't like to risk down the field passing. The more players on the field that can catch the 3 yard pass - the better. Forget Lee Evans. The Bills don't need him and he's gonna want a lot of money anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode54 Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 OK... all this yadyada about the Bills needing a TE to take the offense to another level is a lot of Whooey. And.. one poster went so far as to say the last 6 SB winners drafted a TE in Rd. 1... I say, so what? Shockey was a DNP in the last one, and TB has never drafted a TE #1... so, that post doesn't stand the litmus test, period. The one thing common to that the winners of the last 6 SBs had was a competent QB in combination with very good defenses. That's it. Now... getting back to the TE (sort of). If I've learned one thing it is that the Bills play in probably the harshest weather environments in the league... when you take into condsideration all of the elements. It is necessary to have a passing game to get to the next level. I understand. But, as you've seen many times before, the deeper you get into the season, the less functional the passing game becomes in poor weather. No tight end is going to change that in any way, shape or form. Also, you have a head coach that will never have an aggressive offensive philosophy. There is a direct correllation to the agressiveness of Jauron's offense and the performance of his defense. The better the defense performs, the more aggressive the offense will be... to a point. Jauron's MO is, and has always been to shorten the game using an aggressive defense, special teams, and T.O.P offense, grinding it out a yard at a time and not a lot of verticality... control the clock... and keep the defense fresh. Jauron is who he is, and that is what he is... it won't change. So even if the Bills had Tony Gonzales and/or Antonio Gates at tight end... they wouldn't produce to the degree they produce now in the Bills offense... dink and dunk, gash with Marshawn. The Bills TEs, historically have been blockers first and receivers 2nd. The Bills learned their lesson when they drafted "down field" tight ends Rueben Gant and Tony Hunter in the first round. Both were totally worthless. Lonnie Johnson was a 2nd rounder that was supposed to give the Bills a down field presence. That didn't happen... we all lived through that and Lonnie was our friggin whipping boy. Well deserved. Even McKellar of the KGun fame never caught much more than 40 balls in a season... not many TDs if I recall... and that was in the pinnacle of Kelly and company... serious offensive production. Metzelaars, the 6'7" plodding TE caught 68 balls in 93... more than any other TE in Bills history. NO Bills TE has come close since then or before. Even then, it was the Bills 3rd TE... in short yardage that stole the show, catching quite a few TDs in goal line situations... the beloved Butch "Shake,Rattle, &" Rolle! So this fantasy of some sexy Kellen Winslow, Tony Gonzales TE being the Bills missing link is nonsnense. What they need is just the lunch pail type that can block like hell, find the seams, and catch the damn ball when called upon to do so. The three best for the Bills at that, IMO were Paul Costa, Mark Brammer, and Pete Metzelaars. They all brought a physical presence, could get open, and catch when thrown to. Two things that will make the difference in whether or not this offense goes from dreadful to the middle of the pack this year, is this... and neither one is the TE. It is how well the defense performs and how much better Trent Edwards gets. The defense has added some moxie in free agency plus the return of several injured players, so it looks like they may hold up their end. That means Edwards is the key. The honeymoon is over. Trent has Parrish, Evans, and Lynch as weapons, and a pretty good Oline. He needs to make a quantum leap for the Bills to even think playoffs. Calm the F down. No one is saying to use the 1st round pick, or even the 2nd round pick on a TE. We just want to upgrade. Take off the diaper and breathe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 OK... all this yadyada about the Bills needing a TE to take the offense to another level is a lot of Whooey. A good TE is a great way to win the matchup game. Even if he isn't a great blocker, a TE has to be countered defensively with a LB to prevent run game mismatches. That's a matchup win in the passing game. The better the TE, the bigger the mismatch. Then when defenses have to counter a good TE with a safety or corner, the run game gets the mismatch. Good TE's are much harder to find than wr's, so it's easy to just say screw it and focus on the more plentiful wr position, but the overall returns for an offense are much greater if you can fill that TE position with quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 In the context of the late 80s and early 90s, you didn't have to have a great pass catching TE on the field. Things have changed considerably since then. It doesn't mean drafting a first rounder, but teams need to adapt to defenses which would literally and figuratively run circles around their predecessors of 20 years ago. IMO, teams need to field at least 2-3 capable receivers, be they TE or WR. It matters not which type of scheme Jauron runs on offense. (and it will be his) Until the Bills have someone who poses matchup problems with opposing DB's, the offense will plod along to more 17 point games. I don't care who your DB's are, when there's a sizable receiving threat (Robert Royal does not come close) lining up at TE, opposing defenses take notice. Anyone remember how Antonio Gates gave Donte Whitner problems back in December 2006? If Jauron's going to continue with his style of trying to win with defense and a bare minimum of offense, it'll be another long season. To make matters worse, the Bills have done nothing to help out a 2nd year QB they see as their long term starter. Think a reliable receiving TE who's about 6'5 and 250 would help Edwards? To me, it's all about giving Edwards more options and giving him a better chance to succeed. When's the last time the Bills went out of their way to help the QB with more receiving threats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 I could be totally off base on this but Trent Edwards style seems to be one (accurate intermediate passer) that will need a "lean on" type tight end in order to achieve the proper comfort level....... The winning teams understand the importance of quality TE's (and more then one of them) Ben Watson anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Búfalo Blanco Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Amazing.... I've heard a lot of theories about how to win a championship, how to rebuild an offense, yadda yadda yadda... but it's not often you hear an argument from someone stating that an entire position on a team is not needed... or does not need to be utilized very often... Actually, last time I checked, to win a Lombardi trophy a team should be balanced and strong at all positions!! Doesn't that define a champion? So all a team needs is a good defense and an intelligent QB? Really? Well if thats the case, guys like Roethlisberger and McNabb should win championships every year.... they consistently have good to great defenses.... why do they only have one championship between them? Let me ask ya something... If a defense has to respect and cover a guy like Antonio Gates, Jason Witten, or Dallas Clark, don't you think that takes pressure off of their offensive teammates??? Wouldn't it then help those offensive teammates get open more? A TE doesn't necessarily have to have 70 or more catches in a season to be a "needed" commodity... TEs do a lot of things that other positional players don't have to do.... besides catching passes... They block for QBs, they block for RBs, many of them play STs... they are the very meaning of balance and versatility on a football team. If an offense needs 6 yds for a 3rd down conversion or have a 3rd and goal on the 5 yd line, who do you think one of the first options is going to be? How about a goal-line run play? Don't you need an extra blocker or two to push the pile? It might also be nice to have a big, strong TE to throw short passes to in the "harsh weather" of Buffalo, particularly a 3 ft. snow drift.... A player like Antonio Gates might have been very useful in the blizzard that was the Clevland game... and considering the low score, a good TE could have made the difference in us missing the playoffs that day... Derek Anderson went 9 of 24 that day... 9 attempts were thrown to Winslow and he pulled down 2 for 28 yards, both for 1st downs... and for anyone who watched it, a first down was a huge accomplishment in that important game.... Hey, I'm not saying the Bills should draft a TE in the first or give a record signing bonus to a guy like Kellen Winslow, but to downplay the entire position and say Jauron will never utilize it anyway is just plain wrong.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 I think the 2nd round is the right place to take a TE this year....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsD#1in2008 Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 all i have to say is why doesnt anyone think Courtney Anderson can become a legit player with us he is huge and never got the chance to play....i think he could have a big year and 1 ? how long did we sign him for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 The first and inarguable fact is the Bills have a crappy passing game, even with decent pass blocking now. The second inarguable fact is that Lee Evans is the only solid Bills receiver and because of it he can be taken out of a lot of games because he is on the outside and there is no threat to the middle of the field. The third inarguable fact is that a solid #2 WR or a solid TE can both open up the middle of the field and take a huge burden off of Lee Evans. And unless the rookie is a stud immediately, we will still have that problem. A good #2 WR with a good receiving TE makes everyone on the Bills, especially Evans and Lynch and Parrish, immediately much more dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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