The Bills' dillema

[Adam]

Remember back in the 80's when we went from laughingstock to contender? Well, I think this task is tougher than that was.

 

We were terrible then- it was easy to start over. We are mired in years of mediocrity now, and don't know where to make cuts. Are our favorites elevating us and keeping us from 1-15, or are they less talented than we want to believe and are they holding us back. The truth is we all have our opinions, but nobody really knows.

 

Mediocrity is much harder to end than being terrible, and I think Miami may be in a better position (not just draft) to improve.

[Chilly]

I'll take having to fill the holes on a 7-9 team over a 1-15 team any day.

[molson_golden2002]

I'll take having to fill the holes on a 7-9 team over a 1-15 team any day.

And actually, we were 7-9 in 1979 and won the divion in 1980. Might have won the Super Bowl that year had Fergie not broke his ankle out in San Diego. And BTW, that game should have been in Bufflo, we beat the Bolts that year already and had the same record

[Adam]

I'll take having to fill the holes on a 7-9 team over a 1-15 team any day.

I know what you mean, but on a mediocre team, you tend to over value some players and think they are indispensible. It is easier to clean house with a terrible team.

[Flbillsfan#1]

I know what you mean, but on a mediocre team, you tend to over value some players and think they are indispensible. It is easier to clean house with a terrible team.

HERE WE GO

[Chandler#81]

And actually, we were 7-9 in 1979 and won the divion in 1980. Might have won the Super Bowl that year had Fergie not broke his ankle out in San Diego. And BTW, that game should have been in Bufflo, we beat the Bolts that year already and had the same record

 

I think he meant after the 2-14's of '84/'85.

 

The important thing to remember about that rise to Super status is the folding of the USFL and the influx of good to great players that never would have come our way through the natural processes of the time. Flip Johnson, Kent Hull, Scott Norwood and an NFL 1st rounder from a couple season's earlier all showed up just before the start of the regular season. Hank was fired a few weeks later and replaced by a mediocre coach from the Chiefs, who started bringing in waiver wire guys he thought could help like Tasker, and Still..

 

I get your drift though. Ex: Is Dockery really good, or just better than the lugs before him who could never measure up..

[Adam]

HERE WE GO

Relax- I am not singling out player X. I am just saying that in football or any business for that matter, it is easier to gut the roster when you are terrible. Identifying problems and underachievers is harder when some people misidentify talent or want to throw away people who are better than they think. Mediocrity tends to feed and sustain itself.

[Dawgg]

I know what you mean, but on a mediocre team, you tend to over value some players and think they are indispensible. It is easier to clean house with a terrible team.

 

A good front office is able to make independent valuations of their players in context with other players in the NFL.

 

The Bills front office is far from good, and that's been the reason why this franchise is mired in mediocrity.

[obie_wan]

A good front office is able to make independent valuations of their players in context with other players in the NFL.

 

The Bills front office is far from good, and that's been the reason why this franchise is mired in mediocrity.

 

no way!

 

John Guy is a god!

[Buftex]

And actually, we were 7-9 in 1979 and won the divion in 1980. Might have won the Super Bowl that year had Fergie not broke his ankle out in San Diego. And BTW, that game should have been in Bufflo, we beat the Bolts that year already and had the same record

 

 

Take it one step further, IIRC, the Bills were 7-8 in the strike shortened 1987 season (6-6 without the scab games) before going 12-4 in 1988, 9-7 in 1989, back to back 13-3 seasons in 1990-91, 11-5 in 1992 and 12-4 in 1993. It has to start somewhere....

[The Rev.Mattb74 ESQ.]

Remember back in the 80's when we went from laughingstock to contender? Well, I think this task is tougher than that was.

 

We were terrible then- it was easy to start over. We are mired in years of mediocrity now, and don't know where to make cuts. Are our favorites elevating us and keeping us from 1-15, or are they less talented than we want to believe and are they holding us back. The truth is we all have our opinions, but nobody really knows.

 

Mediocrity is much harder to end than being terrible, and I think Miami may be in a better position (not just draft) to improve.

I think the reason we have been bad for so long is that we change direction every two or three years. I dont think Williams was as bad as we all made him out to be, he built a good defence with Jerry Gray, Mularkey was the biggest joke since Kay Stephenson and now we have DJ. All of this in a 7 year span, if we could go back in time and hit TD(he cost us 5-6 years on his own) over the head and tell him to hire John Fox we would have been better off maybe, or maybe after two years we would have ran him out of town. I like the fact it looks like we are commiting to a plan and seeing it through. It may take some time but atleast we seem to be going in the right direction. Also I think maybe we do over value some players I think Crowell is the most overrated LB we ever had, and McGee is a solid CB but not great. The Orginization I think has overvalued Kelsey.As far as Lee Evans is concerned sometimes he reminds me of Jerry Butler(really good0, and sometimes like Don beebe (better then average). On the upside the past two drafts have brought us Whitner, McCargo, Butler, Lynch, and Poz who all look like they could turn into probowl like players, while Simpson, and Edwards shows potential to be good. Also Players like Pizza man, Youboty, and Merz all look like they can be good depth players. A couple more drafts like this could make us dominant for a decade providing we resign some players.

[Bflojohn]

Buftex, I agree wholeheartedly! The question is who is the pivotal player who turns this team around? In 1987, in my view it was Cornelius Bennett, and the trickle down effect was enourmous! He simply made everyone else better. My candidate now is Marcus Stroud, both as a veteran at a position of need, but the whole argument is impacting the defense from day one! He can do this in my mind. The other pegs defensively, Mitchell and Johnson assist this transformation greatly. They will make Kelsay and Schobel BETTER because they're there. Offensively, that cog is probably Trent Edwards, although he is the "wild card" in the Wild card playoff hunt. He MUST produce with the likely addition of better weapons, and be the leader the Bills are anticipating. I'm guarded optimistic about that part of the equation! At the very least, they are NOT the bickering Bills of yesteryear.....

[Buftex]

Buftex, I agree wholeheartedly! The question is who is the pivotal player who turns this team around? In 1987, in my view it was Cornelius Bennett, and the trickle down effect was enourmous! He simply made everyone else better. My candidate now is Marcus Stroud, both as a veteran at a position of need, but the whole argument is impacting the defense from day one! He can do this in my mind. The other pegs defensively, Mitchell and Johnson assist this transformation greatly. They will make Kelsay and Schobel BETTER because they're there. Offensively, that cog is probably Trent Edwards, although he is the "wild card" in the Wild card playoff hunt. He MUST produce with the likely addition of better weapons, and be the leader the Bills are anticipating. I'm guarded optimistic about that part of the equation! At the very least, they are NOT the bickering Bills of yesteryear.....

 

 

I am thinking that, with another year of experience, and adding a competant #2 receiver, this offense will run through Marshawn Lynch. I thought his predecessor, Willis McGahee was a decent back, but now, seeing Marshawn play, my opinion of Willis is not as high. I forgot what it was to see a RB who ran with a purpose, other than to not get hit too hard....

 

Marshawn had a great rookie season, but I think he can/will be even better in year 2. With the O-lines improved play, a more legit stable of receivers, and a terrific running back, I think some pressure will be taken off the QB position, no matter who it is trhowing the ball.

 

As for the defense, we have some talented players, but we need holes filled in. I am cautiously optimistic that Stroud is the missing piece...it really is amazing the difference that plugging up the middle of the defensive line could have on the whole defense. I think Stroud can still be a very productive player (big guys like him only last in the leauge into their 30's, because good ones are hard to find), and I am just hoping the injury/steroid thing are fully behind him. I love his attitude...I think that cliche "attitude" was something sorely missing on both sides of the ball last year.

[Adam]

I am thinking that, with another year of experience, and adding a competant #2 receiver, this offense will run through Marshawn Lynch. I thought his predecessor, Willis McGahee was a decent back, but now, seeing Marshawn play, my opinion of Willis is not as high. I forgot what it was to see a RB who ran with a purpose, other than to not get hit too hard....

 

Marshawn had a great rookie season, but I think he can/will be even better in year 2. With the O-lines improved play, a more legit stable of receivers, and a terrific running back, I think some pressure will be taken off the QB position, no matter who it is trhowing the ball.

 

As for the defense, we have some talented players, but we need holes filled in. I am cautiously optimistic that Stroud is the missing piece...it really is amazing the difference that plugging up the middle of the defensive line could have on the whole defense. I think Stroud can still be a very productive player (big guys like him only last in the leauge into their 30's, because good ones are hard to find), and I am just hoping the injury/steroid thing are fully behind him. I love his attitude...I think that cliche "attitude" was something sorely missing on both sides of the ball last year.

I really don't think just adding Stroud to the line, or 1 WR will fix things. WE need multiple DT's and multiple WR's to change things. Sure it is a beginning, but it can't be the finish.

[Chilly]

I really don't think just adding Stroud to the line, or 1 WR will fix things. WE need multiple DT's and multiple WR's to change things. Sure it is a beginning, but it can't be the finish.

 

Who do you upgrade on a rotation of: McCargo, Stroud, Johnson, WIlliams

 

Who do you replace at WR: Evans, New #2 WR, Reed, Parrish?

[Adam]

Who do you upgrade on a rotation of: McCargo, Stroud, Johnson, WIlliams

 

Who do you replace at WR: Evans, New #2 WR, Reed, Parrish?

at WR definitely Parrish. Reed is an upgrade over him. Parrish has the physical talent, but is not a WR if he doesn't run routes.

 

If Dorsey or Ellis drops to us, I take him- and move McCargo down in the rotation.

 

If we can't get the guy we need this year, its not the end of the world. I expect improvement, not playoffs this year

[Chilly]

at WR definitely Parrish. Reed is an upgrade over him. Parrish has the physical talent, but is not a WR if he doesn't run routes.

 

If Dorsey or Ellis drops to us, I take him- and move McCargo down in the rotation.

 

If we can't get the guy we need this year, its not the end of the world. I expect improvement, not playoffs this year

 

So, you've already seen enough of McCargo to know he shouldn't be a starter?

 

Reed is the slot receiver, Parrish is the 4th, and I think plenty talented to be the 4th WR in a 4-wide set.

[Adam]

So, you've already seen enough of McCargo to know he shouldn't be a starter?

 

Reed is the slot receiver, Parrish is the 4th, and I think plenty talented to be the 4th WR in a 4-wide set.

I never said a bad thing about McCargo- what I am saying is that if somebody is good enough to beat him out, we are a better team. Never said to cut him or anything. Williams is a decent big body, nothing more. If Johnson is anywhere near what Sean Moran was pre-injury, he should help.

 

I really like Parrish as a punt returner, but I think that is the extent of it. Keep him as the #5 WR.

[Pyrite Gal]

Remember back in the 80's when we went from laughingstock to contender? Well, I think this task is tougher than that was.

 

We were terrible then- it was easy to start over. We are mired in years of mediocrity now, and don't know where to make cuts. Are our favorites elevating us and keeping us from 1-15, or are they less talented than we want to believe and are they holding us back. The truth is we all have our opinions, but nobody really knows.

 

Mediocrity is much harder to end than being terrible, and I think Miami may be in a better position (not just draft) to improve.

I flatly disagree with the premise that it was easier to start over back in the day than it is now. This is demonstrated by the factual happenings where even when teams like the 02 Bills improved from 3-13 to 8-8, this historic turnaround was actually second in the league in turnarounds that year. Here in the first decade of the 21st century it is much doable to go from worst to first than it was in old days of the 70s and 80s.

 

What you may be saying (though since the premise discussed above is contrary to the facts I am not sure what you are saying) that though it is in fact easier to turnaround your record from worst to adequate, what folks do not do well is actually taking the steps to move the shorter distance from marginally inadequate to adequacy.

 

Here I think the Bills problems are not anchored in any systematic difficulty in the task but in the fact that the owner Ralph has badly managed the teams slide down from the glory days.

 

Specifically he:

 

1. Handled the GM situation badly as he failed to get a long with Polian who played a critical role in rebuilding this team and in his next stop in Indy eventually oversaw them winning an SB. The move to Butler was not goshawful in that the team's SB appearances continued with not only a team that Polian helped build but with a team that contained Polian acquisitions but was mostly a Butler product. However, the relationship between Butler and Ralph ended up so badly (in any failed relationship my sense is both parties deserve a fair share of the blame even if one agrees that is not equal) that I think it is pretty clear the team has suffered from the bad with the good of Ralph's GM management and hiring.

 

When one add the TD debacle to the GM story, the first problem may be just an incident. The second problem may be a co-incidence if one tries to be charitable. However, the 3rd GM debacle represents a trend and the buck must stop with the owner.

 

2. Ralph deserves a good deal of praise for showing the commitment to keep the Bills here over the decades and his commitment to keep them here while he is alive. However, there are a series of events such as his vote against the CBA when all others except the Browns saw that the owners had to choose between making more money from the NFL than ever before or holding their breath til they turned blue over the fact the NFLPA was affirmed as the majority partner with 60.5% of the total gross receipts going to salary and that the good ol days when the owners simply kicked the Garvey led NFLPA's butt were over. His failure to get voted into the HOF is a fair indicator that Ralph has pissed off a substantial portion of the NFL somehow in his time (my bet is that it was him unilaterally violating the salary cap with his handshake deal with Jimbo). He deserves praise for honoring the Bills fans by keeping the team here, but the facts are he has whined in the Buff News publicly about fans not giving him sellouts in the early 90s, he ran a mid 20th century business style until TD got here (he sucked in some onfield decisions but ran a great business that finally moved into the 21st century) when Willcall tickets were still sorted in shoeboxes, and he has launched stupid tirades leading to insane actions like his grievance against Wade which he lost badly.

 

3. Ralph owns the team and thus in our society it is his right to meddle and play if he chooses. However, he has made some moves that simply did not produce for the Bills on the field such as his handshake agreement to reward Jimbo in a future contract (a contract which never happened because in the playoffs against Jax it became clear he was done as a player). In addition, he pulled rank and made the team go with RJ in the last playoff loss. The decisions is debatable but the results are what they were.

 

Its easier for a team to move from worst to first in the NFL these days if you do what it is possible to do smartly. Ralph deserves honest praise for what he has done, but also the fact simply is he also deserves an honest assessment that his decisions generally have not been very good throughout the 90s and the first part of this decade.

[Adam]

I flatly disagree with the premise that it was easier to start over back in the day than it is now. This is demonstrated by the factual happenings where even when teams like the 02 Bills improved from 3-13 to 8-8, this historic turnaround was actually second in the league in turnarounds that year. Here in the first decade of the 21st century it is much doable to go from worst to first than it was in old days of the 70s and 80s.

 

What you may be saying (though since the premise discussed above is contrary to the facts I am not sure what you are saying) that though it is in fact easier to turnaround your record from worst to adequate, what folks do not do well is actually taking the steps to move the shorter distance from marginally inadequate to adequacy.

Thats pretty much what I meant- that its hard to go from mediocre to good. Miami is in a position where they can get rid of just about everyone, we aren't.