Philosophical Question

[Tolstoy]

From Allen Wilson's article in the Buffalo News:

 

"The Bills value high character players, and Willis has it in abundance. He has overcome a difficult childhood (his mother abandoned him and his three siblings when he was four) and personal tragedy (his 17- year-old brother drowned last summer) to be able to realize his dream of being an NFL player."

 

My comment:

This kind of inference is becoming increasingly common, but seems absurd to me. Somewhere, we have gotten the idea that the more tragedy and suffering in someone's past, the more difficult their home life, the more crime-ridden and poverty-stricken their childhood environment, the more character they have.

 

Perhaps the assumption here is this: if X (fill in name of player) was able to make it to the highest ranks of college football despite his terrible past, then X must be made of very strong stuff indeed! While there may be something to this, this reasoning seems specious.

 

My questions:

Now I don't think you should judge someone on the basis of their past, but I do think it is fair to consider a person's past in the absence of close knowledge of the person. Given that, isn't it just as valid to assume that the more terrible a person's upbringing, the more likely it is that they will have problems and issues, and fail at the Pro level? Shouldn't we prefer individuals with a good upbringing? Isn't is better to be brought up in a stable home, in a good environment, and to avoid tragedy? In fact, I wonder how many of the NFL's criminal offenders were in fact brought up under circumstances similar to Patrick Willis. Perhaps Wilson's kind of reasoning is what has produced the high rates of criminal offenders in the NFL.

 

Just a thought. Fire away.

[apuszczalowski]

They are usually seen as having high character because after all this hardship/tradgedy, they managed to overcome it and succeed at something when society usually says they should have become criminals or given up because of their past hardships. And its also sometimes believed that the kids with good up bringings either take what they have for granted or don't appreciate what they have so they are viewed as having less character.

 

With a past like whats been described, most would have thought Willis would have been a criminal, or just given up. But he didn't and became a very good football player.

[clownments22]

From Allen Wilson's article in the Buffalo News:

 

"The Bills value high character players, and Willis has it in abundance. He has overcome a difficult childhood (his mother abandoned him and his three siblings when he was four) and personal tragedy (his 17- year-old brother drowned last summer) to be able to realize his dream of being an NFL player."

 

My comment:

This kind of inference is becoming increasingly common, but seems absurd to me. Somewhere, we have gotten the idea that the more tragedy and suffering in someone's past, the more difficult their home life, the more crime-ridden and poverty-stricken their childhood environment, the more character they have.

 

Perhaps the assumption here is this: if X (fill in name of player) was able to make it to the highest ranks of college football despite his terrible past, then X must be made of very strong stuff indeed! While there may be something to this, this reasoning seems specious.

 

My questions:

Now I don't think you should judge someone on the basis of their past, but I do think it is fair to consider a person's past in the absence of close knowledge of the person. Given that, isn't it just as valid to assume that the more terrible a person's upbringing, the more likely it is that they will have problems and issues, and fail at the Pro level? Shouldn't we prefer individuals with a good upbringing? Isn't is better to be brought up in a stable home, in a good environment, and to avoid tragedy? In fact, I wonder how many of the NFL's criminal offenders were in fact brought up under circumstances similar to Patrick Willis. Perhaps Wilson's kind of reasoning is what has produced the high rates of criminal offenders in the NFL.

 

Just a thought. Fire away.

 

Interesting take. I like it. Personally, I think character issues are overblown in today's NFL, but that's cause I think people are good people in general. The one big character issue I think is important is does this person want to play football like it's their job, literally. So many guys have so much talent, but lose interest in the game when it becomes a profession, and not just a game to play in their backyard, (ex. Rian Lief-does anyone remember seeing the piece they did on him on SC?). Not, how many times did this kid get caught drinking in college. who cares?? If everyone was put up to that scrutiny leaving college going into the job market, a lot more people than just athletes would have trouble getting hired.

[AJ1]

It's as simple as unless someone has been severely tested in life the question of his true character has not been answered. It's assumed that when someone comes out on top despite a hundred ready-made reasons to fail, this person is of high character. I have no problem with the premise.

[IDBillzFan]

I think it deserves attention, but read the bio on Pacman Jones from the Titans site.

 

Although he is still in the early stages of his career, Jones’ story is already one of triumph. He lost his father when he was four, and he was raised by his mother, Deborah, along with his grandmother, Christine Jones, for most of his life. He credits them with being the primary reason he was not overcome by his tragic and violent childhood surroundings. But when he was a freshman in college, his grandmother died of cancer. Pacman missed a game to attend the funeral – the only game he missed in his three-year college career. On the day he was drafted by the Titans, he wore a T-shirt with her picture. Later in college, another one of his close mentors, high school PE teacher Libby Sobleskie, also died due to cancer.

 

For every Patrick Willis there is a Pacman Jones.

[Phil Indablanc]

Interesting take. I like it. Personally, I think character issues are overblown in today's NFL, but that's cause I think people are good people in general. The one big character issue I think is important is does this person want to play football like it's their job, literally. So many guys have so much talent, but lose interest in the game when it becomes a profession, and not just a game to play in their backyard, (ex. Rian Lief-does anyone remember seeing the piece they did on him on SC?). Not, how many times did this kid get caught drinking in college. who cares?? If everyone was put up to that scrutiny leaving college going into the job market, a lot more people than just athletes would have trouble getting hired.

 

Adversity does not build character. It reveals it. Having proven that you can overcome major obstacles in your past means that you are more likely to be able to deal with them in the future. And as for your comment that "character issues are overblown in today's NFL" just ask Pacman and the flaming thumbtacks if it is overblown.

[THE GASH STATION]

I felt as if I had a great addittion to this post until I read PACMAN's bio..

On one hand you have a guy with a hard time growing up and when he gets some cash he

goes crazy...then you have a story like Lebron James, hard life and a prefect gentlemen..

Hard to say than really what someone will do once they find success...

 

I always loved this quote from the movie WALL STREET from Gekko regarding the kind of people he likes to hire..

 

~Most of these Harvard MBA types - they don't add up to dogsh*t. Give me guys that are poor, smart, hungry - and no feelings. when you feel, you lose a few, but you keep on fighting.

 

Maybe this is the what the NFL looks for ???

[tombstone56]

patrick willis is one of the few atheletes that wasnt given a pass because of his abiliities,, he has earned his reputation as high character .. he would be a great addition ,, not solely beacause of football abiliities . but his leadership would be immediate , he has overcome and excelled , played hurt , and been a role model for others to emulate.. ive watched him in games closely,, and believe he is the total package , and likely impact player,, and hopefully our 1st round pick....

[apuszczalowski]

Although, this type of character is not what Marv is basing decissions on. (I actually made a post about this about a month ago)

 

Marv is looking for "character" as guys that want to play football, they love the game and give it their all (and then some) for every play of the game regardless of score, or standings. Thats the type of character he is looking for.

 

Sure, all teams look at a players past too, and might pass on someone who could be trouble, (to some teams its more important then others, Cinnci seems to be a team that looks at skill before reputation/person) Players that come out of college with a reputation of legal problems, or partying may drop because teams don't want to work with players with baggage. I believe Marv drafted a player last year (was it Merz?) that had been in trouble for a cheap shot he made on the field to another player. Under the definition most here use for character (and believe Marv follows) theres no way he's taken. But they looked into the situation and found it was an isolated incident that they could over look.

 

Willis sounds like a great Person, had previous trouble in his life, but has overcome those to become a better person. Most teams drafting him would hope that he stays that way. You get the odd player that looks like bad situations in life have made them a good person, but then money changes them (like Pacman). Although didn't Pacman have some legal trounbles in College?

[clownments22]

Although, this type of character is not what Marv is basing decissions on. (I actually made a post about this about a month ago)

 

Marv is looking for "character" as guys that want to play football, they love the game and give it their all (and then some) for every play of the game regardless of score, or standings. Thats the type of character he is looking for.

 

Sure, all teams look at a players past too, and might pass on someone who could be trouble, (to some teams its more important then others, Cinnci seems to be a team that looks at skill before reputation/person) Players that come out of college with a reputation of legal problems, or partying may drop because teams don't want to work with players with baggage. I believe Marv drafted a player last year (was it Merz?) that had been in trouble for a cheap shot he made on the field to another player. Under the definition most here use for character (and believe Marv follows) theres no way he's taken. But they looked into the situation and found it was an isolated incident that they could over look.

 

Willis sounds like a great Person, had previous trouble in his life, but has overcome those to become a better person. Most teams drafting him would hope that he stays that way. You get the odd player that looks like bad situations in life have made them a good person, but then money changes them (like Pacman). Although didn't Pacman have some legal trounbles in College?

 

I'm not sure about pacman's college career. What I've gathered about pacman is that he had a rough group of friends growing up, and now that he's made it to the big time, a lot of his loyalty still lies with his old friends and he gets a lot of pressure from them to back them up when they need it, and sometimes that puts him in the wrong places.

 

But I like the point you made about the type of character you think Marv is going after, and that's exactly what I'm talking about. The important kind of character is how hard you're going to work to get better at football and play hard in practice and on the field consistently. The kind of "character issues" that i think are over blown are the legal ones, because let's look at the whole league and see how many guys with serious legal issues there are. Clearly there's only two guys. And furthermore, clearly Pacman Jones doesn't have on the field character issues because he's a great player. C. Henry I can't speak to in that regard cause I just don't know.

[stuckincincy]

I'm not sure about pacman's college career. What I've gathered about pacman is that he had a rough group of friends growing up, and now that he's made it to the big time, a lot of his loyalty still lies with his old friends and he gets a lot of pressure from them to back them up when they need it, and sometimes that puts him in the wrong places.

 

But I like the point you made about the type of character you think Marv is going after, and that's exactly what I'm talking about. The important kind of character is how hard you're going to work to get better at football and play hard in practice and on the field consistently. The kind of "character issues" that i think are over blown are the legal ones, because let's look at the whole league and see how many guys with serious legal issues there are. Clearly there's only two guys. And furthermore, clearly Pacman Jones doesn't have on the field character issues because he's a great player. C. Henry I can't speak to in that regard cause I just don't know.

 

I think one would have to up the number beyond two. Joey Porter should make the list. I don't recall the name, but SD -I believe - has a player facing some hefty charges for assault or some such. Tank Johnson's woes in CHI

 

Not defending Henry at all - but other than brandishing a firearm in Florida, he hasn't shown any off-field violence. He's had 2 drinking charges, minor marihuana possession, and giving alcohol to a minor. And a driving while under license suspension charge pending.

 

He was alleged to have committed rape, but it was found to be false and the accuser was charged and found guilty. The police investigated her further, and subsequently charged her with murdering a John.

 

He is on probation in 3 States - Ohio, Kentucky, and Florida - and I assume at some point he will be incarcerated.

[Tolstoy]

These are all good points, especially the one about Marv's view of character. Suppose, however, that Marv was looking for a player who is talented but also:

 

has a strong work-ethic

loves the game

has a more or less clean legal record

doesn't have an alcohol or drug problem

is confident without flashy arrogance

is honest with his coaches

is loyal to his teammates

 

isn't it the case that such a person is more likely to be one who has had a good upbringing, of one sort or another? Such a person is more likely to come from a good family, or from a family where the mother or father provided a good role model, strong work ethic, etc. While I do think, as someone said earlier, someone who has been through hard times is battle-tested, and "fired in the forge of adversity," these are rare cases. In the end, I think these sob stories about these athletes do not mean much until we have seen what they are made of, and that takes a few years!

 

One final example from recent memory: McGahee came from a broken family, but he seemed to be a "character guy" when we drafted him. Now, three illigitimate children later, we find out he is an arrogant, licentious party boy who badly needed a good father figure in his youth (and now).

[HeHateMe78]

From Allen Wilson's article in the Buffalo News:

 

"The Bills value high character players, and Willis has it in abundance. He has overcome a difficult childhood (his mother abandoned him and his three siblings when he was four) and personal tragedy (his 17- year-old brother drowned last summer) to be able to realize his dream of being an NFL player."

 

My comment:

This kind of inference is becoming increasingly common, but seems absurd to me. Somewhere, we have gotten the idea that the more tragedy and suffering in someone's past, the more difficult their home life, the more crime-ridden and poverty-stricken their childhood environment, the more character they have.

 

Perhaps the assumption here is this: if X (fill in name of player) was able to make it to the highest ranks of college football despite his terrible past, then X must be made of very strong stuff indeed! While there may be something to this, this reasoning seems specious.

 

My questions:

Now I don't think you should judge someone on the basis of their past, but I do think it is fair to consider a person's past in the absence of close knowledge of the person. Given that, isn't it just as valid to assume that the more terrible a person's upbringing, the more likely it is that they will have problems and issues, and fail at the Pro level? Shouldn't we prefer individuals with a good upbringing? Isn't is better to be brought up in a stable home, in a good environment, and to avoid tragedy? In fact, I wonder how many of the NFL's criminal offenders were in fact brought up under circumstances similar to Patrick Willis. Perhaps Wilson's kind of reasoning is what has produced the high rates of criminal offenders in the NFL.

 

Just a thought. Fire away.

 

Just because a person had to endure prodigous adversity during their upbringing, does not mean they are more apt to become criminal offenders. To you to make that absurd correlation is not only imprudent but ignorant! I had very similiar unfortunate events in my life that one might constitute as growing up in an 'unstable home' and I am currently attending a very prestigous law school. The mere fact that an individual can overcome their strenuous past, speaks volumes about the perserverance n resilence they have; thus, the strong character title they obtain. Do you know how many kids give up ensuing their adversity? Their hardship actually plays an significant role in invigorating their character unlike an individual born with a silver spoon in their mouth.Evidently, you have never took any psychology courses related to this notion because you couldn't be further from the truth Your preposterous vaild assumption, makes you sound unequivocally ignorant!

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

Just because a person had to endure prodigous adversity during their upbringing, does not mean they are more apt to become criminal offenders. To you to make that absurd correlation is not only imprudent but ignorant! I had very similiar unfortunate events in my life that one might constitute as growing up in an 'unstable home' and I am currently attending a very prestigous law school. The mere fact that an individual can overcome their strenuous past, speaks volumes about the perserverance n resilence they have; thus, the strong character title they obtain. Do you know how many kids give up ensuing their adversity? Their hardship actually plays an significant role in invigorating their character unlike an individual born with a silver spoon in their mouth.Evidently, you have never took any psychology courses related to this notion because you couldn't be further from the truth Your preposterous vaild assumption, makes you sound unequivocally ignorant!

My best friend, who is the Warden at a "prestigous" State prison, will tell me over and over again that the determining factor is not as much the color of the inmates skin, but whether he was raised by just one parent (Usually the Mom). The odds are much harder for children brought up in a socially bad environment, especially if they have to raise themselves because the parents aren't around and/or don't meet all of their needs. Naturally, it is not a Universal that children in a good situation will live lives without trouble nor if someone has adversity in their lives will they fail... but the odds are stacked against the latter.

It takes tremendous character to overcome such odds. From personal experience, my mother was killed when I was three, and I (thru the Grace of God, and my Sports coaches) was the only one of the four children in our family to graduate High School. Further, I am the only one without a criminal record. If it wasn't for mentors , I don't doubt that I could have ended the same way.

However, not to belittle your point of view, because I agree with much of it, having a good upbringing, with loving parents who are involved in their children's lives is a big advantage and maybe you didn't learn the statistics in your psychology class but the reality is that the odds are that the better the upbringing, the better the chance to stay out of trouble and live a productive life.

[Tolstoy]

My best friend, who is the Warden at a "prestigous" State prison, will tell me over and over again that the determining factor is not as much the color of the inmates skin, but whether he was raised by just one parent (Usually the Mom). The odds are much harder for children brought up in a socially bad environment, especially if they have to raise themselves because the parents aren't around and/or don't meet all of their needs. Naturaaly, it is not a Universal that children in a good situation will live lives without trouble nor if someone has adversity in their lives will they fail... but the odds are stacked against the latter.

It takes tremendous character to overcome such odds. From personal experience, my mother was killed when I was three, and I (thru the Grace of God, and my Sports coaches) was the only one of the four children in our family to graduate High School. Further, I am the only one without a criminal record. If it wasn't for mentors , I don't doubt that I could have ended the same way.

However, not to belittle your point of view, because I agree with much of it, having a good upbringing, with loving parents who are involved in their children's lives is a big advantage and maybe you didn't learn the statistics in your psychology class but the reality is that the odds are that the better the upbringing, the better the chance to stay out of trouble and live a productive life.

 

 

Good post.

[THE GASH STATION]

My best friend, who is the Warden at a "prestigous" State prison, will tell me over and over again that the determining factor is not as much the color of the inmates skin, but whether he was raised by just one parent (Usually the Mom). The odds are much harder for children brought up in a socially bad environment, especially if they have to raise themselves because the parents aren't around and/or don't meet all of their needs. Naturally, it is not a Universal that children in a good situation will live lives without trouble nor if someone has adversity in their lives will they fail... but the odds are stacked against the latter.

It takes tremendous character to overcome such odds. From personal experience, my mother was killed when I was three, and I (thru the Grace of God, and my Sports coaches) was the only one of the four children in our family to graduate High School. Further, I am the only one without a criminal record. If it wasn't for mentors , I don't doubt that I could have ended the same way.

However, not to belittle your point of view, because I agree with much of it, having a good upbringing, with loving parents who are involved in their children's lives is a big advantage and maybe you didn't learn the statistics in your psychology class but the reality is that the odds are that the better the upbringing, the better the chance to stay out of trouble and live a productive life.

To the point and you didn't insult anyone..You must be a Dale Carnigie grad..

Great post.

[Captain Hindsight]

Interesting take. I like it. Personally, I think character issues are overblown in today's NFL, but that's cause I think people are good people in general.

you my friend are an opptimist