BEES In Danger - what to do?

[OCinBuffalo]

You're building the weakest of straw men here and still I'd like to punch a hole through it. This has little to do with George Bush (who at least, in Crawford, lives an ecologically-minded life) and if anything it has to do with a general attitude that the little things in an ecosystem are actually big things and that every little link in the chain matters. But this kind of disrespect for and disconnection from nature is pervasive, to the point that I don't think you could ask many 16 year-olds what role bees fulfill in the lifecycle of plant vegetation and expect a correct answer.

 

If you think that's a good or funny thing be my guest. I think it's a sad statement on our culture.

Well let's see. Why in the world do you think he said that? Is is possible that we have seen the same thing("It's always Bush's Fault") from the same group of people so many times("Bush haters") as to become immune to whatever they say? Or, better yet, to have realized that there is now a need to disclaim every piece of relevant data in an effort to maintain reasonable dialog, about any issue, such that the Bush Haters cannot attempt to end the sentence with: "and that is also Bush's fault". Who created that need?

 

You accuse him of creating a strawman for this argument. On the surface, it appears you are right, or, at least that is what you get to tell yourself - and your like-minded buddies. However, why does he feel a need to create this strawman?

 

Is it possible that after the 22nd time he hears you guys phony-up an argument or create an entire ethos based on false choices, i.e.:

 

"We need to spend more money(apparently unlimited money with no attached accountability) on education and anyone who doesn't agree doesn't care about education".,

 

he might start to look at things in terms of a PREDICTABLE pattern? Or does it take 23 times? 40 times? After seeing the same pattern, over and over again, to the point that it becomes so predictable, what other response do you propose? At what point does your Pavlovian negative response to everything Bush does get called into question here as the ROOT CAUSE for his strawman? This ain't about me, nor is it about him, this is about you.

 

Problem: You don't like others using straw arguments?

Solution: Stop using them yourself. Calling out every 16 year old in America and saying that they don't know what bees do creates a much larger strawman that Nanker's.

 

Problem: You want "people" to respect the environment?

Solution: Stop talking down to "people" and/or making sweeping statements about 16 year olds and start convincing "people". Let's start by replacing the word "people" with me -> OCinPhilly. What are you going to do to convince OCinPhilly to care more about what you are saying? If you don't care about the answer to that question, you don't care about me. If you don't care about me, why in hell should I care about you? Better yet, why should I care about what you are saying? Best of all, if you really care about they environment so much, aren't you willing to use the best approaches to get the word out to people?

 

Or, are your content with your membership at Club Smug? And, are you and the other members too good, in your infinite wisdom, to bother with "people" like us?

Which is it? Or, are you gonna be happy telling yourself that I've created a strawman too? In that case, enjoy the club, you and the other members are well on your way to the land of the irrelevant. And, whether you think that is a good or funny thing is: guess what? IRRELEVANT.

[BoondckCL]

I'm going to ask the question of the day here. What does Rosie O'Donnell think about all of this?

[/dev/null]

I'm going to ask the question of the day here. What does Rosie O'Donnell think about all of this?

 

Why, what's she gonna do? Release the hounds? Or the bees? Or the hounds with bees in their mouth and when they bark, they shoot bees at you?

[Nanker]

You're building the weakest of straw men here and still I'd like to punch a hole through it. This has little to do with George Bush (who at least, in Crawford, lives an ecologically-minded life) and if anything it has to do with a general attitude that the little things in an ecosystem are actually big things and that every little link in the chain matters. But this kind of disrespect for and disconnection from nature is pervasive, to the point that I don't think you could ask many 16 year-olds what role bees fulfill in the lifecycle of plant vegetation and expect a correct answer.

 

If you think that's a good or funny thing be my guest. I think it's a sad statement on our culture.

 

OCinPhilly said it pretty well.

 

I was tempted to put this in the Off The Wall forum, but decided it had too great a potential for hijacking by political activists, so I put it here instead - complete with straw dog, or tar baby as I prefer.

 

It is an interesting article - nes pas? A quick quote from same: "One of the operative hypotheses is that there are multiple and variable causes. If that's the case, that's a problem because we will need multiple and variable solutions." Pitty the poor media pundits if that's true. But of course it won't stop many from "knowing" the "one true" cause - evil Republicans and their cunningly inept genius leader George Bush.

 

I agree that there is a general disconnect (disrespect - I'm not so sure of - at least in terms of a philosophical discrespect) for nature in our society. Some of the loudest decriers of environmental destruction jeer the Boy Scouts and perpetually ask for more funding for school programs that ignore teaching our 16 year-olds about the role that bees fulfill in the lifecycle of plant vegetation.

 

Life is not a controlled experiement. There are wrong answers to its tests.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I agree that there is a general disconnect (disrespect - I'm not so sure of - at least in terms of a philosophical discrespect) for nature in our society. Some of the loudest decriers of environmental destruction jeer the Boy Scouts and perpetually ask for more funding for school programs that ignore teaching our 16 year-olds about the role that bees fulfill in the lifecycle of plant vegetation.

This is an excellent statement. I don't agree with what everything the Boy Scouts do, and the sort of 'boys will be boys' element that dominated my troop are what pushed me out of scouting, because we had leaders who looked the other way while the bigger kids were beating up on the smaller ones. That said, there are so many awesome things about it that I don't think you can discount what the organization is about as a whole. And the gay rights contingent that has an issue with BSA should realize that if any change is to come on that front it will come from within and pressuring BSA is just going to galvanize their position against that community.

 

As far as OC's reply to me, I'll accept that my positions can come across as coming from an elitist or environmentalist position because from where I stand it seems so often we're not being heard. I see people take three plastic bags for a carton of milk at the supermarket, I become conscious of my own waste, of every little thing that we do that cumulatively could just result in disaster. I see kids mesmerized by XBoxes when there are so many mesmerizing aspects of the natural order of things. I see little criticism of the culture we live in and when there is, there's a backlash against it. The point about being American is not to just accept that we are the best, it's to strive to be the best and then to be even better than that. When I perceive that we're failing in that mission, I paint it in broad strokes, and I apologize. At the same time, I realize that the loudest voices are not always the strongest on a subject, and that the actions of someone like Bush at his Crawford mansion speak more loudly than the way Mr. Gore lives his life. I just wish his policy would coincide with it.

 

I try to recognize the shrillness of the enviros' position and I think we need to be much more about the positives -- green architecture, technological solutions, exciting possibilities, solutions that really do account for the flexible and multi-pronged nature of this issue, as someone (maybe you, Nanker) more eloquently put it. These are the things that will get people really interested in solving this problem. But these should not be met with brickwalls because the powers that be have decided they are not economically viable for the very moment.

 

This is a long way off from bees but I think if we can put aside the accusations, from my side and from yours, and the namecalling, we can probably go a long way because we do see eye to eye on a lot of aspects of it -- it's more the question of how it should be done.

[OCinBuffalo]

This is an excellent statement. I don't agree with what everything the Boy Scouts do, and the sort of 'boys will be boys' element that dominated my troop are what pushed me out of scouting, because we had leaders who looked the other way while the bigger kids were beating up on the smaller ones. That said, there are so many awesome things about it that I don't think you can discount what the organization is about as a whole. And the gay rights contingent that has an issue with BSA should realize that if any change is to come on that front it will come from within and pressuring BSA is just going to galvanize their position against that community.

 

As far as OC's reply to me, I'll accept that my positions can come across as coming from an elitist or environmentalist position because from where I stand it seems so often we're not being heard. I see people take three plastic bags for a carton of milk at the supermarket, I become conscious of my own waste, of every little thing that we do that cumulatively could just result in disaster. I see kids mesmerized by XBoxes when there are so many mesmerizing aspects of the natural order of things. I see little criticism of the culture we live in and when there is, there's a backlash against it. The point about being American is not to just accept that we are the best, it's to strive to be the best and then to be even better than that. When I perceive that we're failing in that mission, I paint it in broad strokes, and I apologize. At the same time, I realize that the loudest voices are not always the strongest on a subject, and that the actions of someone like Bush at his Crawford mansion speak more loudly than the way Mr. Gore lives his life. I just wish his policy would coincide with it.

 

I try to recognize the shrillness of the enviros' position and I think we need to be much more about the positives -- green architecture, technological solutions, exciting possibilities, solutions that really do account for the flexible and multi-pronged nature of this issue, as someone (maybe you, Nanker) more eloquently put it. These are the things that will get people really interested in solving this problem. But these should not be met with brickwalls because the powers that be have decided they are not economically viable for the very moment.

 

This is a long way off from bees but I think if we can put aside the accusations, from my side and from yours, and the namecalling, we can probably go a long way because we do see eye to eye on a lot of aspects of it -- it's more the question of how it should be done.

Now that is great post. I admit that this was the last thing I expected. I also admit that I am just as frustrated with Washington in general as you on this issue as well as many others. I honestly don't know what to think about global warming or most environmental issues anymore, and I have no idea wtf they are thinking re healthcare. I.E., Do you remember the VA patient scandal - the one where the VA patient's data was compromised?

 

No schit - I was in DC, looking at that system, and telling them that they had major problems(!@#$ing MS Access database running the entire VA - ridiculous) the biggest being security, 10 months before that - I swear to God. I was told that they were fine and the Ph. D. nurse in charge of that department told me: "Well, that's your opinion. I designed this system and we have been running this just fine for two years." As if a !@#$ing nurse knows how to be a technical architect. I don't tell her how to plan care, why did she think it was ok to tell me how to do my job?

 

When I heard about the scandal I wanted to shoot someone. Here I have the solution to the problem, I have a way to fix it, and lo and behold, I have a way to vastly improve it, for cheap, and they show me and my guys the door, and our Veterans get screwed once again. Arrogance on a massive scale.

 

It is for this reason more than any other that I think I feel what you are feeling when you see three plastic bags for milk. It's like: hey we can fix this problem but, you get: no, we like crappy solutions and things that are patently stupid.

 

I have been running this and other thoughts through my head recently. I have a few thoughts about what I want to do, but they are too preliminary to be shared. However, if there was a way to do a simple FAQ about the environment and every other issue - without the Shrillness - and keep it updated by trusted experts - would that be of any use?