The Tale of Two Walkers

[obie_wan]

Langston Walker at 366lbs will not be starting at right tackle or right guard- Ill bet some combination of Pennington, Butler, Preston will fill those two positions.

 

expensive bench warmer?

 

I don't think so

[William O Darby]

Mort is that you again?

 

Colts and Bears--both cover 2 teams with smallish DTs were in the superbowl. Earlier in the season, when the bears were healthy, their defense was FREAKISHLY amazing. The DTs rotation; Harris (295) scott (300) and Johnson (300). I am not saying that the bills will have a great d this year that will be stout against the run. But your argument that you need to have a 350 pound tub of gue to stop the run and have a good D is flawed. Cover 2 DTs are supposed to be 1 gap penetrating DTs--not 2 gap mountains.

[billybob]

expensive bench warmer?

 

I don't think so

so are you saying they'd start him even if he wasn't the best player?

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

so are you saying they'd start him even if he wasn't the best player?

25 Million copies of George Washington tells me they do not believe he will be outplayed by Butler and Preston.

[The Dean]

I don't know if anybody has mentioned this already amidst the euphoria, but Langston Walker, our new answer at RT was on an offensive line that was 29th in the league in rushing offense and their offensive line gave up 72 sacks! The worst offensive line in recent NFL history. I watched every Raiders game last year. It was UGLY, especially the offense.

 

The latest savior, Darwin Walker, was expendable in Philly principally because they couldn't stop the run. The Philly defense was 26th in the league in rushing defense.

 

The cover 2 defense couldn't stop the run last year and it likely won't this year. The best rushing defenses around the league have guys up the middle in the 325lb. range. This is not just a coincidence. The Bills D-line will get steamrolled again next year.

 

Speed can be overpowered. Look at he tapes from last year and you will see London Fletcher getting pushed 8-10 yds back or knocked down after the DT's were handled with relative ease. A rotation system at DT can be an excuse for not having anybody good enough to handle the position(s) by himself. A defensive scheme (i.e.cover 2) cannot disguise a lack of talent.

 

The Bills have a couple new faces which gets everybody excited, but IMO they haven't improved.

 

 

Worst (most superficial) analysis ever?

[Lothar]

Worst (most superficial) analysis ever?

I think those arguments are legitimate, Dean. I'm cautiously optimistic the right side of the OL will be better. But to those who think we paid Walker 25 mil to be a backup - that's nuts. Barring injury, he's the opening day starter at RT. And with regard to his playing other positions, at 6'8", he's way too tall to be a guard - especially for a team whose QB is 6'2".

 

By the way, best Bob Dobbs avatar... ever

[The Dean]

I think those arguments are legitimate, Dean. I'm cautiously optimistic the right side of the OL will be better. But to those who think we paid Walker 25 mil to be a backup - that's nuts. Barring injury, he's the opening day starter at RT. And with regard to his playing other positions, at 6'8", he's way too tall to be a guard - especially for a team whose QB is 6'2".

 

By the way, best Bob Dobbs avatar... ever

 

 

Thanks. I think I have some better ones coming.

 

As for my comment, perhaps I was a little harsh.

 

Would you go for:

 

Most superficial analysis, ever

 

?

 

Looking at the result of a team or unit and putting that result on a single player is...well, superficial, and dumb. Can you say, Takeo Spikes?

 

Billsguy may have watched the Raiders, but gives no indication he watched Walker. I also watched a lot of Raiders and , while I'm no O-Line expert, I certainly thought he was one of their better linemen. As Kelly pointed out, the Raiders were VERY successful when running to Langston's side. That doesn't mean that he's GREAT, but it calls into question the broad-brush painting by Billsguy.

 

I don't know much about Darwin Walker as I didn't get a chance to see too much of the Eagles. But, again, it's been pointed out there are cover-2 teams that are quite effective with "smaller" DTs. I noticed a lack of discussion of the techniques or his strengths and weaknesses.

 

This is the kind of post you lay down on a rivals board to make fun of what they've done for s#its and giggles. I have no problem questioning the quality of these players (or whether they are the answer at their respective position). I also don't expect a Pyrite Gal tome from every post.

 

But, to start a thread and, basically say, "these two guys stink", and give no analysis, makes it seem like a troll. I don't think Billsguy is a troll. But, he's basically said Marv and his team don't know what the hell they are doing. To say:

 

The Bills have a couple new faces which gets everybody excited, but IMO they haven't improved

 

before the Bills (and their new faces) have not improved before they have even had a practice, let alone played a game, I really think IS stupid...but, it's certainly premature.

 

Here's my "really-bad off-the-cuff analogy"

 

A great chef makes a pizza with fresh green peppers and salami. Our analyst says:

 

"The green peppers won't be good. I had a habanero pepper once and it was too hot, it will ruin the pizza. Also, that salami is made from pork, I once ate a bad pork chop, it was terrible. That is not a good pizza. It is round. I don't think round food tastes good"

[Sketch Soland]

so are you saying they'd start him even if he wasn't the best player?

 

Of course, they're going to START Walker initially with the money they paid him. How well he plays for us no one will know until he actually plays, but he is going to start.

 

Just actually think about it for a second and you will realize this.

[H2o]

I don't know if anybody has mentioned this already amidst the euphoria, but Langston Walker, our new answer at RT was on an offensive line that was 29th in the league in rushing offense and their offensive line gave up 72 sacks! The worst offensive line in recent NFL history. I watched every Raiders game last year. It was UGLY, especially the offense.

 

I'm sure that Gallery was responsible for more than half of that total, probably 40+ sacks alone. He gave up 4 or 5 just to San Diego. There were still 15 other games besides that one.

[The Dean]

I'm sure that Gallery was responsible for more than half of that total, probably 40+ sacks alone. He gave up 4 or 5 just to San Diego. There were still 15 other games besides that one.

 

 

I thought Gallery was a "can't miss" prospect.

[Pyrite Gal]

Its not impossible to stop the run with the cover two, look at the bears last year. For the most part their DTs are under 300 lbs. Tommie Harris goes about 280 and hes one of the best in the league.

 

Tampa has been notoriously hard to run on for years. They also have done it with a smaller d-line.

I would definitely say that looking a Chicago and then also at the Colts (who got simply shredded by the run at historic levels in some of their final regular season games) is that it raises either the question whether the old saw Marv subscribes too that it all starts with stopping the run and running is in fact true in the "new" NFL. or alternately whether it is quite possible to do a sufficient job of stopping run without a behemoth in place.

 

There is certainly a danger in simply looking to the most successful teams and replicating their scheme with lesser players, but also the fact that the two best teams ran the Cover 2 and triumphed is a real world result which deserves some analysis.

[patamunzo]

I thought Gallery was a "can't miss" prospect.

 

AFAIK he's an all-time top-10 bust, up there with Leaf, and any Mike Williams you prefer

[Sketch Soland]

AFAIK he's an all-time top-10 bust, up there with Leaf, and any Mike Williams you prefer

 

O rly?

 

What Gallery have you been watching?

 

He's a player. He's just misunderstood!

[Pyrite Gal]

I thought Gallery was a "can't miss" prospect.

 

This an example of why the draft for all the dead lock certain analysis is really a crapshoot in the end.

 

For all the hyperventilating regarding Willis, is he the quite reasonably judged the best LB in this class?

 

Yeah for sure.

 

Is it a stone cold certainty he will be the answer we seek at MLB for years to come?

 

No, its not a certainty at all, but I am pretty hopeful this tackling machine would be just that in long run. The fact simply is that in the future he could look back on his career and legitimately judge it as being excellent boasting many Pro Bowl appearances, but this great career can include two incredibly non-productive years as a starter and his career would be following the track of a Eric Moulds or Larry Johnson

 

Will he be an immediate starter for this team?

 

Actually, if he most likely this occurs because he was good enough to start at SLB or he is declared MLB and John DiGregorio is the alternative.

 

Of the 18 out of 32 players picked #1 in what was judged to be a strong draft who were #1 on their team's depth chart A FULL YEAR AFTER THE DRAFT, there was a tremendous bias toward these players being top 10 picks. By definition, if Willis drops to us he will be valued outside of what I define as an elite pick. It certainly is possible that he could be an immediate starter, but I think it goes a little too far to declare this a certainty beyond the fact that the best alternative to him is Crowell (which puts him at SLB) and the depth chart alternative to him is DiGregorio (which if we are even thinking that mean Crowell at MLB or a lot of pain this this year while Willis learns to become a vet).

 

Well its about 50/50 or so given what has happened in the real world in terms of results.

 

I hope we trade down if we can because competition is really our best alternative for getting better quickest.

[obie_wan]

This an example of why the draft for all the dead lock certain analysis is really a crapshoot in the end.

 

For all the hyperventilating regarding Willis, is he the quite reasonably judged the best LB in this class?

 

Yeah for sure.

 

Is it a stone cold certainty he will be the answer we seek at MLB for years to come?

 

No, its not a certainty at all, but I am pretty hopeful this tackling machine would be just that in long run. The fact simply is that in the future he could look back on his career and legitimately judge it as being excellent boasting many Pro Bowl appearances, but this great career can include two incredibly non-productive years as a starter and his career would be following the track of a Eric Moulds or Larry Johnson

 

Will he be an immediate starter for this team?

 

Actually, if he most likely this occurs because he was good enough to start at SLB or he is declared MLB and John DiGregorio is the alternative.

 

Of the 18 out of 32 players picked #1 in what was judged to be a strong draft who were #1 on their team's depth chart A FULL YEAR AFTER THE DRAFT, there was a tremendous bias toward these players being top 10 picks. By definition, if Willis drops to us he will be valued outside of what I define as an elite pick. It certainly is possible that he could be an immediate starter, but I think it goes a little too far to declare this a certainty beyond the fact that the best alternative to him is Crowell (which puts him at SLB) and the depth chart alternative to him is DiGregorio (which if we are even thinking that mean Crowell at MLB or a lot of pain this this year while Willis learns to become a vet).

 

Well its about 50/50 or so given what has happened in the real world in terms of results.

 

I hope we trade down if we can because competition is really our best alternative for getting better quickest.

 

I would say the downside with Willis is pretty high. He is a high character, self-motiviated guy.

 

At worst he is a marginal starter.

 

However, he does have the possilibitly of being special in this cover-2.

[San-O]

As Far as Darwin Walker goes. The job of the cover 2 is not to stop the run it's to create pressure that leads to turnovers with minimal to no blitzing.

 

 

Well, that's good, because they succeeded in not stopping the run.

 

[C.Biscuit97]

I don't know if anybody has mentioned this already amidst the euphoria, but Langston Walker, our new answer at RT was on an offensive line that was 29th in the league in rushing offense and their offensive line gave up 72 sacks! The worst offensive line in recent NFL history. I watched every Raiders game last year. It was UGLY, especially the offense.

 

The latest savior, Darwin Walker, was expendable in Philly principally because they couldn't stop the run. The Philly defense was 26th in the league in rushing defense.

 

The cover 2 defense couldn't stop the run last year and it likely won't this year. The best rushing defenses around the league have guys up the middle in the 325lb. range. This is not just a coincidence. The Bills D-line will get steamrolled again next year.

 

Speed can be overpowered. Look at he tapes from last year and you will see London Fletcher getting pushed 8-10 yds back or knocked down after the DT's were handled with relative ease. A rotation system at DT can be an excuse for not having anybody good enough to handle the position(s) by himself. A defensive scheme (i.e.cover 2) cannot disguise a lack of talent.

 

The Bills have a couple new faces which gets everybody excited, but IMO they haven't improved.

 

Jerry Porter was interviewed recently. He said the Raiders o-line was an absolute mess. Supposedly, they had like 3 different guys working with the line (makes sense since Art Shell was the coach). Anyways, he said on some plays, each lineman would have a different assignment and weren't working together as a group. He said the Gallery (and I'm assuming the other guys) were alot better than how they looked. I guess we just gotta trust McNally on this one.

 

As for Walker, I agree if this was 2004. Spikes was an absolute animal. But unfortunately, it is 2007 and Spikes suffered a horrible injury for a football player. He essentially lost his job to a 6th round rookie. I love Spikes and wish it wasn't the case but getting a DT, who missed only 3 games in 5 years, had 8 sacks, playoff experience, and INT, for a guy with only one big play all season (the first play of the year) is a good deal IMO.

[Gotta Dream]

You forgot one Walker...

 

Me.

 

Texas Ranger.

 

They're putting me on the defensive line next year and I will sack QB's by staring at them.

 

--Chuck Norris

 

 

Is your daddy Ricky Bobby?!?!

[Kelly the Dog]

Does anyone really believe that Jauron, Fairchild, McNally, and Marv watched game after game of tape on Langston Walker and then collectively decided to throw 25 million dollars at him on the first day of free agency because he couldn't block and let defensive ends through him for sacks at every opportunity? Or that after watching his man beat him for a sack they turned to each other and high fived, screaming "Let's get him!" after what a great play he made? We have no idea if Langston Walker is going to be good or not on the field in a Bills uniform, but I guarantee you our coaches and management think he is very good with a potential to be great. They, of course, could be wrong. But one thing guys like Marv and Jauron do not do is whine about not being able to spend money on a player and then just throw 25 million around for no reason, keeping a player off the market and not letting him visit another city. They love this guy. Hopefully we will, too.

[Pyrite Gal]

I would say the downside with Willis is pretty high. He is a high character, self-motiviated guy.

 

At worst he is a marginal starter.

 

However, he does have the possilibitly of being special in this cover-2.

 

I definitely agree there is the POSSIBILITY that Willis is going to be special in the cover-2. I found your pointing out that Urlacher provides a real world example of what it takes in terms of performance from a rookie to be special in a Jauron designed cover-2 at MLB.

 

The Urlacher example does show it is possible that it can be done. However. what it takes to do it is for a player to be judged worthy of the 9th pick in the draft as Urlacher was (by definition if Willis falls to us and we take him he is not a top ten player though he would be close) and he produced a result where he has achieved multiple Pro Bowls and even was NFL Player of the Year.

 

I think even if one is psyched about Willis, asserting this is the standard he will achieve is a bit much for anyone to assert.

 

I agree that at worst he is a marginal starter (and probably actually would prove better than that even though I suspect that learning process would involved some moments of great pain as the rookie learns to be a vet).

 

However, I think that the higher POSSIBILITY for the Bills to get better fastest is to get some more draft resources and look for competition and vet experience to fill our gaps,

 

Specifically, if we can find a deal partner (and several possibilities have been suggested of folks lower than us who may want to trade up) such that we can trade down into a pick in the low 20s we can get multiple 2 and/or 3rd round choices in this draft which would allow us to:

 

1. Take 2 of the RBs deemed worthy of 1st day choices (there are a bunch of Pittman, Irons, Booker, etc types) and these two can vie with A-Train to give us multiple options for a player worthy of the #1 RB slot or give us lots of options at a RB by committee approach if that difficult thing is what we have to do.

 

2. Still allow us to take Pos with a pick at 20 or lower (where the consensus seems to have him going) and slot him in at SLB and use Crowell as MLB who some have doubts about, but given that I think a vet is more likely to read plays better than a rookie and that his stats INDICATE that with his reasonable INT total for an LB each of the last two years (he got 2 last year despite missing a quarter of the season which is less than but comparable to in a truncated seasonthe 4 F-B led NFL LBs with, he finished 3rd on the Bills with tackles despite the shorter season, AND he registered a reasonable number of sacks in each of the last two seasons (his 2 tied F-B for the team lead among LBs again despite the truncated season).

 

While some folks do complain about him taking bad angles tackling and other technical complaints, these are merely reduced to whines folks may be making to sound good unless they can back up these observations with specific cases (siting the at least the game and preferably even the gametime so folks can review taped games if they want) or with stats which are not conclusive but at least are an indicator based in observable data.

 

Folks can merely have the typical fact-free opinions if they wish because us psychotics devote way too much time to this, but they should not be surprised if their whines are viewed simply as that.

 

Crowell may also prove to be a mere reincarnation of Fletcher evoking complaints of him making tackles to deep in our secondary. However, his stats and specific plays he made like a very good INT he got against Miami in the first game to nip a drive in the bud at tne end of the first half are a reasonable INDICATOR that he may step up and produce a game which has good pass coverage and the aggression we want from our LBs as indicated by his sacks and tackles to his credit.

 

3, If we get the right deal and augment our 4 current first day picks with two acquired in trade with the flip flop we may even be able to draft for more depth at MLB to sit on the bech and play ST while he learns the MLB game such as a Buster Davis.

 

If we can pull off a trade down with the #12 I will be very happy as we will have competition to fill our many needs rather than simply hoping that Willis turns out to be the next Urlacher. It could happen but it seems quite risky to bank on it and foolish to assume it will happen.