The WORST thing that could happen on Draft Day

[Sketch Soland]

Being serious.....

 

The worst thing that could happen is that the Bills take Brady Quinn if he is still on the board.

That would be the most off the wall pick in history if you ask me. Especially just watching Losman in those interviews. He is clearly the leader of this franchise now.

 

[shrader]

The more Mort says we reached...the better off we all are

 

But remember, when Bellichek goes off the board, its brilliant.

[San-O]

Why people keep heckling Marv on his first draft I can not figure out. Whitner is good, Ko Simpson showing good signs, McCargo still has yet to show all his hand, Youboty is are first round CB this year without having to spend a 1st on, plus other good additions. Let's quit going there.

 

Basically, each of those players except Ko were considered reaches.

 

There is NO way Whitner is a # 8 overall pick, no way.

 

McCargo was considered by most exports to be an extreme reach also, plus Marv traded up

to get him.

[DrDawkinstein]

Basically, each of those players except Ko were considered reaches.

 

There is NO way Whitner is a # 8 overall pick, no way.

 

McCargo was considered by most exports to be an extreme reach also, plus Marv traded up

to get him.

 

 

Whitner was picked at #8, therefore he is a #8 pick. its pretty simple. grass is green, the sky is blue, Whitner was picked at #8. not that hard to understand...

[The Dean]

Basically, each of those players except Ko were considered reaches.

 

There is NO way Whitner is a # 8 overall pick, no way.

 

McCargo was considered by most exports to be an extreme reach also, plus Marv traded up

to get him.

 

 

Read my post earlier in this thread. Then re-read it until you understand it.

[Bill from NYC]

Read my post earlier in this thread. Then re-read it until you understand it.

 

I read it again Dean-o. So what? SoCal certainly has a right to think that Whitner was a reach at #8 in a seemingly deep draft.

What is the big deal? This is a message board and oh.....he is probably right, but I DO admit it is too early to say.

[The Dean]

I read it again Dean-o. So what? SoCal certainly has a right to think that Whitner was a reach at #8 in a seemingly deep draft.

What is the big deal? This is a message board and oh.....he is probably right, but I DO admit it is too early to say.

 

 

My point is, we don't have anywhere near enough information to decide if a player was a "reach", and neither do the "experts". (If by a "reach", you mean that player would have been available significantly later in the draft.) That discussion is simply nonsensical, IMO.

 

Now, if you think the guy isn't good...or, we should have picked someone else, then fine. But we just can't know what team may or may not have picked a particular player after that player is already picked. The GMs (and their staffs) are in discussions with each other before and during the draft. They have a pretty good handle on whether a guy is likely to be available at a position they can get to.

 

So, how do we decide if a player is a "reach" when Marv tells us he thinks that player was likely to be gone in the next few picks?

 

Should we believe Kiper (and those of his ilk)? They have much less real-time info than Marv and company had at the time.

 

Should we just trust our guts and our poorly informed non-NFL trained brains and draw our own conclusions?

[Sketch Soland]

My point is, we don't have anywhere near enough information to decide if a player was a "reach", and neither do the "experts". (If by a "reach", you mean that player would have been available significantly later in the draft.) That discussion is simply nonsensical, IMO.

 

Now, if you think the guy isn't good...or, we should have picked someone else, then fine. But we just can't know what team may or may not have picked a particular player after that player is already picked. The GMs (and their staffs) are in discussions with each other before and during the draft. They have a pretty good handle on whether a guy is likely to be available at a position they can get to.

 

So, how do we decide if a player is a "reach" when Marv tells us he thinks that player was likely to be gone in the next few picks?

 

Should we believe Kiper (and those of his ilk)? They have much less real-time info than Marv and company had at the time.

 

Should we just trust our guts and our poorly informed non-NFL trained brains and draw our own conclusions?

 

uuhhh, yeah, DUH. wtf? dude, you're a dick, 4 real. marv says jump, you say how high..!!1!

[Bill from NYC]

My point is, we don't have anywhere near enough information to decide if a player was a "reach", and neither do the "experts". (If by a "reach", you mean that player would have been available significantly later in the draft.) That discussion is simply nonsensical, IMO.

 

Now, if you think the guy isn't good...or, we should have picked someone else, then fine. But we just can't know what team may or may not have picked a particular player after that player is already picked. The GMs (and their staffs) are in discussions with each other before and during the draft. They have a pretty good handle on whether a guy is likely to be available at a position they can get to.

 

So, how do we decide if a player is a "reach" when Marv tells us he thinks that player was likely to be gone in the next few picks?

 

Should we believe Kiper (and those of his ilk)? They have much less real-time info than Marv and company had at the time.

 

Should we just trust our guts and our poorly informed non-NFL trained brains and draw our own conclusions?

 

Thanks for defining terms. I heard Levy say that he had numerous offers to trade down and that one team offered more than a 2nd. Apparently he thought Whitner would be gone, and he really wanted him.

 

In this sense, I agree with you....the point of debate is whether or not we agree with Marv making this selection and/or not trading down, not the word "reach."

[The Dean]

uuhhh, yeah, DUH. wtf? dude, you're a dick, 4 real. marv says jump, you say how high..!!1!

 

 

When Marv asks me to pee in the corner, I ask, "What color?"

 

 

 

 

[The Dean]

Thanks for defining terms. I heard Levy say that he had numerous offers to trade down and that one team offered more than a 2nd. Apparently he thought Whitner would be gone, and he really wanted him.

 

In this sense, I agree with you....the point of debate is whether or not we agree with Marv making this selection and/or not trading down, not the word "reach."

 

 

Bingo! For what it's worth (probably not a whole hell of a lot).

 

Thanks for taking the time to understand my point, Bill.

[San-O]

My point is, we don't have anywhere near enough information to decide if a player was a "reach", and neither do the "experts". (If by a "reach", you mean that player would have been available significantly later in the draft.) That discussion is simply nonsensical, IMO.

 

Hey, "The Dean", NFL scouts and personnel departments use different techniques for evaluating AND valuating

talent and ability.

 

Many teams assign a "point" value to each player, and I doubt any team had Whitner valued that high.

 

But, apparently nobody other than Marv is qualified to define value.

 

BTW, it's not a great secret that one of the final straws that broke the back of "The Tom", was Ralph

feeling he reached one too many times: see Roscoe Parrish.

[DrDawkinstein]

STOP FIGHTING IN MY THREAD!!

 

but seriously, i really dont give a triple-spotted split-winged flying crap about "reach"ing. in my opinion, when you go into the draft, you should have a list of players that you know you want. then you go out and get them. i think its an absolutely ridiculous idea when i hear people arguing about "reaching" and "draft value".

 

a players true "draft value" can only be determined no sooner than 3 years after he's drafted. NOT by some pinheads on a sports channel basing it on a guys college career. or even pro scouts and their magical number charts.

 

 

Marv wanted Whitner. We were picking at 8(not that it matters). Whitner was available. We got a 16 game starting rookie who had over 100 tackles. Any other argument about being too high for a Safety, or we "shouldve traded down" is just nonsensical and by now, a completely dead horse.

[The Dean]

Hey, "The Dean", NFL scouts and personnel departments use different techniques for evaluating AND valuating

talent and ability.

 

Many teams assign a "point" value to each player, and I doubt any team had Whitner valued that high.

 

But, apparently nobody other than Marv is qualified to define value.

 

BTW, it's not a great secret that one of the final straws that broke the back of "The Tom", was Ralph

feeling he reached one too many times: see Roscoe Parrish.

 

 

Point values are where they start the day...things change. GMs start dealing and they get info about what other teams are thinking of (I'm sure some of it is true and some of it is false), player they assume will be around get picked, teams they know won't be interested in the guy they want move up or down in the draft. it is a FLUID/dynamic process. No doubt some GMs are better than others at evaluating and making deals. TD seemed to have a certain way of going for the "genuius" move (which he sometimes pulled off). Marv (and team) is far more precise, humble and practical, IMO.

 

My point is (using Whitner as an example), Marv stated Whitner was likely to be picked by one of the next couple of teams in the draft (I forget which one). If my memory serves me well (reminds me of a song...) that team confirmed their interest after the draft.

 

SO..if Marv wanted Whitner...and it seemed as though Donte would go on the pick or two after the Bills, was it a reach? Of was Marv fooled? Of did Marv and the other team lie? The answer seems to be clear: We don't know.

 

That's why the "reach" label really doesn't work for me, as it implies knowledge we just don't have. I have no problem with "that's a crappy pick"...as long as you back it up. Because then you can either be right or wrong depending on the performance of the pick. With the "it's a reach" comment, there is never objective data to support or dispute your claim.

[turftoe]

I think it's more like: Marv gets a guy at 12 that the "experts" THINK he could have got in the late 1st or 2nd. But Marv, and his team, know a team at #14 and a team at #16 are real interested as they have 10,000 times more knowledge about what's going down than any "expert" or any poster here. That player ends up being a great pick, but the "experts" keep saying, "he reached for that pick".

 

 

I think you may hit the nail on the head come April 28th. I see LB as our most likely #1 pick. Carolina @ #14, Pittsburgh @ #15, and Cincinnati @ #18 all are in need of linebackers. If you trade down too far you may get stung! For argument's sake, lets say S.F. takes Willis at #11. Maybe we have Poz rated our #2 LB. We probably would have to take him even if it is "too early" based on the talking heads. Kiper only has two LBs in his top 25 (Willis @ #17 and Timmons @ #25). I can just hear him now ripping the Bills for "reaching" on a LB at 12 and suggesting we should have traded down. That theory may look good on paper but if you get too cute trading down, you may be left with nothing good to pick!

[DrDawkinstein]

I think you may hit the nail on the head come April 28th. I see LB as our most likely #1 pick. Carolina @ #14, Pittsburgh @ #15, and Cincinnati @ #18 all are in need of linebackers. If you trade down too far you may get stung! For argument's sake, lets say S.F. takes Willis at #11. Maybe we have Poz rated our #2 LB. We probably would have to take him even if it is "too early" based on the talking heads. Kiper only has two LBs in his top 25 (Willis @ #17 and Timmons @ #25). I can just hear him now ripping the Bills for "reaching" on a LB at 12 and suggesting we should have traded down. That theory may look good on paper but if you get too cute trading down, you may be left with nothing good to pick!

 

 

i agree and ive said before that if Willis and Okoye are gone by 12 then there was a run on defense and EVERYONE behind them goes up. if Willis is gone and we sit at 12 and take the LB WE WANT TO then im perfectly fine with that. if we trade down and end up having to take a WR or something, then i will call Ralph and ask him to fire Tom Donahoe, again.