Spikes "officially" on the trading block

[stuckincincy]

maybe he was right. but maybe some of that stuck with him, and he is the one that has a funk stuck to him... as far as i remember, i read a lot of talking by him about being gald to be out of Cinn, and the way it was run. and maybe he is right. but its VERY unprofessional to come out publicly with those statements.

 

i have a former employer that i hate, and that are a bunch of rats, and that salesmen ask me about everyday, and i dont even say bad things about them privately. its just not worth it.

 

Don't dance around your original assertion about TKO and his relationship with CIN.

 

No facts when you malign an individual?...then don't post.

[Kelly the Dog]

Kelly,

 

Your position with regard to Spikes is noble but highly unrealistic. Spikes was brought in at a large cost to do a job. Due to injury he's no longer able to do that job and therefore won't be compensated at the same rate. It's not fair, it's not nice but it's just a reality of the life of a player in the NFL. The players all know that it's business and it's about production. They also know that their career can end with a single injury.

 

In many respects, it's not much different that what happened to Sam Cowart

That first post of mine was only in response to a post that said Spikes should pay back what he "stole" from the Bills in the last two years. It was not about whether or not Spikes is worth 4.5 million this year.

 

Subsequent posts were about the fact that we don't know if he is going to be worth 4.5 mil this year or not yet. He may or may not be. Last year he clearly wasn't. This year, IMO, we should try him throughout the preseason to see, because we won't be able to get anything of value in a trade and we will create another hole to fill, making LB a MUST in the first two rounds instead of a luxury. And musts often lead to bad picks.

[blacklabel82]

When I said it looks like this team is just continuing to try to build a team through the draft I was just implying that I'm getting a little tired of waiting and never really seeing this team make a big splash in, well, anything. I'm glad we addressed the O-line, but we'll have to see how those guys pan out. I think Spikes is worth keeping around for another season. Whether he produces or not this year, I think his trade value is gonna be the same either way. He's going into what, his ninth or tenth year? I say keep him around and let him anchor the LBs we have, he's another year removed from the Achilles injury and my guess is he was never 100% to begin with going into last season. He did start it off with a bang, first play from scrimmage in the '06 season and he levels Tom Brady and Fletcher picks up a fumble for a touchdown. I still think he's capable of big plays like that.

[dave mcbride]

First, I've never once posted Julian Peterson's name on this board, so you're thinking of someone else.

 

Second, Peterson is just one example. But he is about as close to our case as you can get. OLB, widely considered one of the best in the game before his injury. Unimpressive in his first year back after injury. Team lets him go. Goes on to be a Pro-Bowler.

 

I'd love to give a bunch of examples of those who didn't make it, but I don't know who the "plenty of others who havent" made it back are. I'd be interested in some examples. I simply believe that if anyone can make it back, it's a guy like Spikes who has intensity, passion and dedication beyond what is often seen among his peers.

 

Bart, very few come back. It's a killer for most. Lawrence Taylor is the most obvious example, but there are more.

 

My take on this is based on something Joe Delamielleure said last year: Lou Saban kept most of the guys on the team from the previous year around for one season to suss them out, and if they seemed to be malcontents in waiting, he got rid of them in year two. Knowing Marv, Joe D's point was that he expected Levy would do exactly the same in his second year. I remember Spikes kvetching last year about the Whitner pick (good thing he's not one of our scouts), and I also suspect (without evidence, admittedly) that he turned Corey Dillon off to Buffalo. The guy is basically shot: his game has been speed, and the primary reason he was brought in was for his absolutely stellar pass defense skills (note how the screen pass, a Bills-killer in 2001 and 2002, disappeared from opponents' arsenals in 2003 and 2004). He can't play that game anymore, and as a run plugging tough guy or sack artist, he's never been any better than your average NFL journeyman. I doubt he's accepted that, which is the root of the problem.

[Koufax]

I think TKO will recover in year 2 after the injury and be a good linebacker, and not an overpriced veteran who we wish we didn't have. I have less info on this than the Bills, so if someone who knows more than me thinks otherwise based on careful evaluation of the information I can live with that, but given our lack of depth and impact linebackers, I think it is a $4.5 million dollar risk that I would take, and at least until training camp proves otherwise.

 

I would listen to any offers we can get, but I think that a trade we could make now or cutting him will make us a worse 2007 football team than keeping him. The worst situation is to burn some bridges in the process with the trading block rumors and then create some bad blood and have our hand forced.

[bartshan-83]

Bart, very few come back. It's a killer for most. Lawrence Taylor is the most obvious example, but there are more.

 

My take on this is based on something Joe Delamielleure said last year: Lou Saban kept most of the guys on the team from the previous year around for one season to suss them out, and if they seemed to be malcontents in waiting, he got rid of them in year two. Knowing Marv, Joe D's point was that he expected Levy would do exactly the same in his second year. I remember Spikes kvetching last year about the Whitner pick (good thing he's not one of our scouts), and I also suspect (without evidence, admittedly) that he turned Corey Dillon off to Buffalo. The guy is basically shot: his game has been speed, and the primary reason he was brought in was for his absolutely stellar pass defense skills (note how the screen pass, a Bills-killer in 2001 and 2002, disappeared from opponents' arsenals in 2003 and 2004). He can't play that game anymore, and as a run plugging tough guy or sack artist, he's never been any better than your average NFL journeyman. I doubt he's accepted that, which is the root of the problem.

I wasn't trying to say that the average guy makes it back...I just honestly couldn't think of a bunch of examples.

 

With regards to Spikes, I trust the Bills coaching staff and team doctors far more than my "gut" about Spikes' ability to make a full recovery. I just really admire his determination and I personally think it is too early to cut bait with him. Lose him for what? a 4th rounder? 5th? I'd roll the dice and keep him another season if that is the only payment. Plus, his value is at an all-time low...who wants a complete unknown, aging LB with a high salary? We have the cap space...no need to jump the gun.

 

However, I do take issue with this notion that Spikes is a malcontent that is keeping away free agents. He has grumbled about cutting veterans and he took issue with not drafting a DT that he thought would help him do his job better. I agree that he should keep his opinions in house, but I'm not going to hold it over him for the rest of his (maybe short) career in Buffalo.

 

But about him turning off Corey Dillon and others (and I'm not trying to single you out...plenty of others have hinted at this), I find it puzzling. Nothing I have heard or read leads me to that conclusion and actually, the only evidence I can give on either side is very supportive of Spikes' positive attitude towards the Buffalo Bills. Example: Derrick Dockery.

 

From Billsdaily:

 

Derrick Dockery said the Bills have always been one of his favorite teams and he felt it was a right fit for him as the Bills were one of the teams on the top of his list to visit....Takeo Spikes is a good friend of his along with former Bill Mike Williams. They both said nothing but good things about Buffalo.

 

From PFW: (essentially the same quote)

 

I know Takeo Spikes real good, and he says nothing but great things about the city and the team.

 

I don't know why the Bills management seems interested in parting ways, and I'll trust their decision. But I have to wonder about the value in selling low on a potential impact player all for the possible payout of a 2nd day draft pick. Risk doesn't seem worth the reward to me.

[dave mcbride]

I wasn't trying to say that the average guy makes it back...I just honestly couldn't think of a bunch of examples.

 

With regards to Spikes, I trust the Bills coaching staff and team doctors far more than my "gut" about Spikes' ability to make a full recovery. I just really admire his determination and I personally think it is too early to cut bait with him. Lose him for what? a 4th rounder? 5th? I'd roll the dice and keep him another season if that is the only payment. Plus, his value is at an all-time low...who wants a complete unknown, aging LB with a high salary? We have the cap space...no need to jump the gun.

 

However, I do take issue with this notion that Spikes is a malcontent that is keeping away free agents. He has grumbled about cutting veterans and he took issue with not drafting a DT that he thought would help him do his job better. I agree that he should keep his opinions in house, but I'm not going to hold it over him for the rest of his (maybe short) career in Buffalo.

 

But about him turning off Corey Dillon and others (and I'm not trying to single you out...plenty of others have hinted at this), I find it puzzling. Nothing I have heard or read leads me to that conclusion and actually, the only evidence I can give on either side is very supportive of Spikes' positive attitude towards the Buffalo Bills. Example: Derrick Dockery.

 

From Billsdaily:

 

Derrick Dockery said the Bills have always been one of his favorite teams and he felt it was a right fit for him as the Bills were one of the teams on the top of his list to visit....Takeo Spikes is a good friend of his along with former Bill Mike Williams. They both said nothing but good things about Buffalo.

 

From PFW: (essentially the same quote)

 

I know Takeo Spikes real good, and he says nothing but great things about the city and the team.

 

I don't know why the Bills management seems interested in parting ways, and I'll trust their decision. But I have to wonder about the value in selling low on a potential impact player all for the possible payout of a 2nd day draft pick. Risk doesn't seem worth the reward to me.

 

Good points about Dockery. Re Spikes, if come this August there's a guy who can run better than him with equivalent instincts and ferocity, then I see no need to spend more than 4.5 million on just a guy. I'll freely admit, though, that I have no idea whether he'll be more than that. He may well be. I'm just reading the numerous smoke signals coming from the team, and they aren't auspicious for Spikes' continued presence on the team. We've been through this before, sort of: Bryce Paup, who never came back from a torn groin (another really bad injury).

[bartshan-83]

Good points about Dockery. Re Spikes, if come this August there's a guy who can run better than him with equivalent instincts and ferocity, then I see no need to spend more than 4.5 million on just a guy. I'll freely admit, though, that I have no idea whether he'll be more than that. He may well be. I'm just reading the numerous smoke signals coming from the team, and they aren't auspicious for Spikes' continued presence on the team. We've been through this before, sort of: Bryce Paup, who never came back from a torn groin (another really bad injury).

Absolutely agreed. I'd just love to wait until August...hell even June 1st cuts before we dump the guy. Ideally, I'd love to see him on the field in September given two full years of recovery, but I'd settle for any kind of extended opportunity to see him in action.

[Dibs]

If you head over to KFFL.com and check the latest news, Mark Gaughan from the Buffalo News reports that the Bills have Spikes officially on the trading block due to salaray cap reasons. Personally, I would like to see him stick around for this season to see if he can fully bounce back from his injuries suffered in '05 and '06 and become the LB he used to be. If he can't, then trade him. You're probably not gonna get a whole lot for him in the condition he's in. Also, my bad if this has been posted about before. I know there have been talks and speculation of him being traded but apparently it's official now and yes, I searched the other threads before posting this and didn't see anything really recent. Seems we're hurting ourselves more than helping ourselves here with all the holes we're allowing. We're definitely counting on the draft to build this team and not free agency. I usually try to stay pretty optimistic with this team but I feel like with the way they keep running their front office and interchanging players constantly, I don't think we'll see the playoffs before this decade is up, sheesh.

"due to salary cap reasons".

If there is any validity in this statement(& for the sake of discussion I'll assume there is) what could those 'salary cap reasons' possibly be? We have only sign 2 decent contracts which are really only the equivalent of NC & LF. We must be looking at another decent signing to have legit salary cap reasons for getting rid of Spikes......even considering our self imposed 'cash to cap' situation.

 

Who might that signing be?

There are still a few FA DTs available......but I feel we will wait until after the draft to see where we go with DT.

Turner? As above, see what happens with the draft.

 

There are however 2 top LBs looking to be traded.

Lance Briggs & Al Wilson

 

If, as I said, there is truth to the salary cap reason then I would think we have some sort of a deal lined up for either Briggs or Wilson......probably Wilson.

 

***Probably no truth to the reasons given for wanting to trade him though......If he's past it you wouldn't advertise that when putting him on the trade blocks***

[Kelly the Dog]

"due to salary cap reasons".

If there is any validity in this statement(& for the sake of discussion I'll assume there is) what could those 'salary cap reasons' possibly be? We have only sign 2 decent contracts which are really only the equivalent of NC & LF. We must be looking at another decent signing to have legit salary cap reasons for getting rid of Spikes......even considering our self imposed 'cash to cap' situation.

 

Who might that signing be?

There are still a few FA DTs available......but I feel we will wait until after the draft to see where we go with DT.

Turner? As above, see what happens with the draft.

 

There are however 2 top LBs looking to be traded.

Lance Briggs & Al Wilson

 

If, as I said, there is truth to the salary cap reason then I would think we have some sort of a deal lined up for either Briggs or Wilson......probably Wilson.

 

***Probably no truth to the reasons given for wanting to trade him though......If he's past it you wouldn't advertise that when putting him on the trade blocks***

Gaughan may or may not know something from talking to the Bills brass. But what he is actually talking about in this article is the self-imposed cash to the cap policy that the Bills spoke of. They have reached their limit on that and may already be over it. There are no real "salary cap" problems with keeping Spikes as the Bills are still well under it. But they may wish to rid themselves of the 4.5 mil in cash owed Spikes for the Bills "cap" policy.

[34-78-83]

I like all the doctors in this thread who somehow know that Spikes cannot return to form before next season. Ask Julian Peterson how his Achilles feels. You can write to him at:

 

2007 NFC Pro Bowl Starting OLB

Honolulu, HI

 

I'd hope that the Bills give Spikes a chance to show what he can do now that he he will be almost 2 years removed from the injury on opening day. If the team doctors and coaches think he doesn't have it anymore, then so be it. But I really hope they don't jump the gun and deliver another team a future Pro-Bowler for mere pennies.

I'm with you. They've got to atleast get a good look at him and gauge his chances of improving as Peterson did. A look in camp will be all they need to properly make a good judgement IMO. Unfortunately, in 99% of the cases the guy on the "trading block" is already gone.

[Dibs]

Gaughan may or may not know something from talking to the Bills brass. But what he is actually talking about in this article is the self-imposed cash to the cap policy that the Bills spoke of. They have reached their limit on that and may already be over it. There are no real "salary cap" problems with keeping Spikes as the Bills are still well under it. But they may wish to rid themselves of the 4.5 mil in cash owed Spikes for the Bills "cap" policy.

This only makes sense if we are looking at signing another player to a 'deal'. $30mil was the figure people quoted & we have not reached that yet in new money spent on FAs. Signing another name FA may well make things too tight for our cap situation but as is, we are not tight......or am I wrong? Have we spent over $25mil already in cash on our few FA signings?

Dockery......$18.5mil guarenteed & $23mil over 1st 3 seasons......lets say $10mil this year.

Walker......$25mil over 5 years.......lets say $6mil this year.

Thomas, Thomas & Whittle???? Lets say $7mil for all three this year.

Even under the inflated figures I put forward we would still have another $7mil.

 

As I said, it implies to me that(assuming it's a truthful factor) we are looking at another signing.

[The Dean]

ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

Wake me when something happens. K?

[Kelly the Dog]

This only makes sense if we are looking at signing another player to a 'deal'. $30mil was the figure people quoted & we have not reached that yet in new money spent on FAs. Signing another name FA may well make things too tight for our cap situation but as is, we are not tight......or am I wrong? Have we spent over $25mil already in cash on our few FA signings?

Dockery......$18.5mil guarenteed & $23mil over 1st 3 seasons......lets say $10mil this year.

Walker......$25mil over 5 years.......lets say $6mil this year.

Thomas, Thomas & Whittle???? Lets say $7mil for all three this year.

Even under the inflated figures I put forward we would still have another $7mil.

 

As I said, it implies to me that(assuming it's a truthful factor) we are looking at another signing.

Add 10 mil for Kelsay. Ballpark figures but we're easily at or over 30 mil in cash.