Crowell - not a MLB

[generaLee83]

Thompson plays for Cleveland and has put up okay numbers as a part time starter.

 

But stats don't tell the whole story. Crow isn't a very good backer, and I seriously don't he starts in the middle. In fact, before Fletch left I wouldn't have been surprised if he was a nickle backer by next year. He still maybe, he is too light in the seat, has issues getting off blocks, and takes bad angles. He does have good pass coverage skills, good speed however.

 

I agree, Crowell is not MLB material. His play offers little indication of solid field instincts. He's a chaser like Fletcher.

[Pyrite Gal]

I agree, Crowell is not MLB material. His play offers little indication of solid field instincts. He's a chaser like Fletcher.

 

On the contrary, I think that Crowell has shown field instincts which have been honed with him being originally trained as the back-up signal caller for F-B which not only will facilitate him returning to this position but also gave him the ability to move to back the fallen TKO at Will last year.

 

While some folks seem to never be satisfied by any Bills performance short of an SB appearance (not a bad thing actually in terms of demanding the best) many were impressed with how he filled in for TKO last year. Folks can badmouth stats if they wish but if they are gonna trot out commentary about his failings with nothing to back it up but their fact-free opinions then they shouldn't be surprised if their comments are merely taken as whines.

 

At a playing weight of 235 while this is well below the 268 of Willie McGinest it is also clearly above the weight cited for folks like Cato June and Zack Thomas and is exactly the same as Peterson's. He was credited with well over 100 tackles filling in for TKO and ended up high on the Bills list in a truncated season last year.

 

One of his INTs last year played a pivotal role in winning the game for us, and the fact that he not only pulled down 2 INTs in his short season and also garnered 2 sacks indicates that he was making plays both downfield and behind the line of scrimmage.

 

Crowell is actually heavier than most of LBs on the Bills roster and while nothing is guaranteed in the NFL he certainly has better prospects for success at the diverse MLB slot of the cover 2 than any of the rookies in the draft.

 

Between taking the stats as something to be hopeful about or being doubtful based on some fact-free opinions I think the choice is relatively clear.

[bluv]

If we had a starting linebacker corp of Ellison, Crowell, and Spikes ans they stayed healthy I think that would be a solid group. If they can find a DT who is suout at the point of attack then this group would be all over the field. If we drafted Willis that would be OK but who's to say that he would be better than Crowell in the middle or even have better impact than Ellison who we have seen have effective play in the NFL? I guess VABills must have hated Crowell when he played for UVA for he has hated on Angelo ever since the Bills has drafted the guy. Players develop and get better; especially in their 1st 4 years.

[VABills]

If we had a starting linebacker corp of Ellison, Crowell, and Spikes ans they stayed healthy I think that would be a solid group. If they can find a DT who is suout at the point of attack then this group would be all over the field. If we drafted Willis that would be OK but who's to say that he would be better than Crowell in the middle or even have better impact than Ellison who we have seen have effective play in the NFL? I guess VABills must have hated Crowell when he played for UVA for he has hated on Angelo ever since the Bills has drafted the guy. Players develop and get better; especially in their 1st 4 years.

I don't hate Crowell. I just don't think he is a good every down backer. I see too many mistakes. He has good speed, but poor tackling at point of attck skills. No ability to shed blocks that get to his level. His speed does make up for some and he is able to recover a lot and make tackles past the LOS, but 5-7 yard gains everytime get a little old. For a good write-up on stats especially defensive, read the following. The tackling stats are all fake. They are whatever anyone feels like making up and putting down. As the story puts out, a lot of times to help a player get more recognition for post-season honors.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/foot...e.statistic.ap/

[Pyrite Gal]

If we had a starting linebacker corp of Ellison, Crowell, and Spikes ans they stayed healthy I think that would be a solid group. If they can find a DT who is suout at the point of attack then this group would be all over the field. If we drafted Willis that would be OK but who's to say that he would be better than Crowell in the middle or even have better impact than Ellison who we have seen have effective play in the NFL? I guess VABills must have hated Crowell when he played for UVA for he has hated on Angelo ever since the Bills has drafted the guy. Players develop and get better; especially in their 1st 4 years.

 

My sense of where the LBs would likely rank in effectiveness in 07 taking into account, their athletic talent, their assignments in the Cover 2, and their experience are:

 

1?: TKO- The big question mark. Obviously the best producer historically among all the LBs by far, but whether he is the same player anymore post-injury is known only to some supreme being, TKO, the coaches and what happens. If all he has left on the wrong side of 30 he what he showed last year when IMHO he worked too hard and beyond his body's ability to stay healthy he is done, but if he was more judicious this off-season and comes back at 90% of his past Pro Bowl level he is the best we got.

 

1b: Crowell- Also a recovery question but being on the positive side of 39 and reportedly already at 100% even as last season ended he would almost certainly be the most productive Bill at the MLB spot which requires the ability to make NFL level reads and greatly benefits the ability to call signals which it is quite doubtful a rookie can do.

 

2a,b, and c: A draftee (Willis, Poluszny or Timmons):- This is probably more of an expression of doubts about Ellison than the positives of these players. In terms of quality of performance, these three seem to fall out in this order. It was good news dfrom the pundits to hear that Willis should be able to translate his award winning performance at MLB in college to the SLB position because if we break him in at OLB he can pretty quickly become the second best (or third if TKO recovers) on this team, but if we throw him to the wolves by asking him to master the tackling machine needs of MLB (he can do this, but then so could F-B and folks found his performance substandard behind substandard DT play in terms of where he made initial hits) as well as the safety like pass coverage responsibilities our our MLB (it is both the case that Willis was a workout warrior at the Combine with great numbers, but he struggled in pass protection at the Senior Bowl and F-B got more INTs than any other LB in the NFL and produced 2 TDs because he is very good and very smart abut making the NFL vet reads very useful in pass protection,

 

Willis looks to be and has been judged to be a better player than either Poluszny or Timmons, but he will be playing a new position that lessens the production gap between these players and how the coaches feel upon meeting them and their judgment which none of us has (unless we have met them) of how they would fit into this team is the prime determinant IMHO of which is the better choice for us.

 

It likely is Willis since in addition to good workout numbers all reports are of him being a very special person who has made it through some very rough times in part due to his personal qualities, but how he would do with his "marriage" to his 10 colleagues on D is more than a measure of his raw qualities but how these qualities would mesh with the other starters is going to be key.

 

If Willis were chosen and actually is asked to start at MLB then he easily drops IMHO behind Ellison in terms of productivity as he would likely spend a lot of energy his freshman year learning (and often by being fooled by NFL vets and OCs) to make vet reads. The Bills would also likely need to find some manner for having play signals called by second year players like Whitner or Simpson or an OLB out of position to see the entire field like Crowell or maybe TKO unless we are also willing to subject this team to Willis learning the D and making substandard adjustments as a rookie at MLB. I think he easily drops behind Ellison is he is asked to be MLB and their remains the potential that Poluszny or Timmons may be better performers at their natural OLB positions that Willis would initially at SLB.

 

3. Ellison: A very good surprise for us last year as he stepped up to play adequately after the IR injury to Crowell and the struggles of TKO. I assume he will add a few more pounds this off-season and if he can do this without losing any speed or athleticism he can be very good though at last year's performance level he is a valuable good back-up but clearly a back-up.

 

4?- Wire- A longtime -vet now who is far better cast as an LB rather than a SS. It will be very interesting to see how he responds to putting on a bit more weight as he kept it low to give himself more speed in order to not be a very good safety. He does have the potential to surprise us all by actually being a very good LB (I will really be pissed at GW and Gray if this turns out to be the case that we wasted getting production from Wire for years because he simply was miscast) but it remains to be seem whether he is more than simply a good ST guy who is better to have as a reserve LB than as a reserve SS.

 

5. Haggan- An ST phenom who if we rely on him as a position player it means we have hit a bad injury spate

 

6?. Stamer- He still is on the roster though oddly is not on the depth chart. he showed some athleticism as a back-up position player in his time but recovery from his injury will tell the tale.

 

7?- DiGrigorio- One assumes that the Bills plan if F-B had gone down was to slide Crowell over to MLB and look to Ellison or Wire, but DiGregorio remained #2 on the depth chart as fortunately F-B never missed a game or a substantial part of one. However, it simply remains a ? whether he remained a Bill because the coaches see something in practice we cannot see or maybe his Dad has pictures of Marv or Ralph in Vegas.

 

8?.- Manning- This former starter at GB also was acquired for some reason. if it was because of all the question marks above then he is simply camp fodder. if it was because the coaches see something then we will see.

 

? is the reigning LB story for the Bills

[obie_wan]

I don't hate Crowell. I just don't think he is a good every down backer. I see too many mistakes. He has good speed, but poor tackling at point of attck skills. No ability to shed blocks that get to his level. His speed does make up for some and he is able to recover a lot and make tackles past the LOS, but 5-7 yard gains everytime get a little old. For a good write-up on stats especially defensive, read the following. The tackling stats are all fake. They are whatever anyone feels like making up and putting down. As the story puts out, a lot of times to help a player get more recognition for post-season honors.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/foot...e.statistic.ap/

 

Relying on Crowell in the middle is basically more of Fletcher without the experience.

 

The Bills have stated they want to improve by getting LBs that attack the line of scrimmage.

 

My guess is they are willing to live with the rookie learning curve if it is offset by aggressive tackling at the line of scrimmage.

[The Dean]

Relying on Crowell in the middle is basically more of Fletcher without the experience.

 

The Bills have stated they want to improve by getting LBs that attack the line of scrimmage.

 

My guess is they are willing to live with the rookie learning curve if it is offset by aggressive tackling at the line of scrimmage.

 

 

Link?

[VABills]

Link?

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/blog/index.jsp?post_id=909

 

Brown makes an assumption that Fletch is the only one and I can tell you that about the only one that impressed me about attacking the LOS was Ellison. The rest were reacting rather than attacking.

 

“Part of the stopping of the running game is your linebackers have to attack in this style of defense. They have to be able to attack and not just pursue tackle.”

[BillsVet]

Let's face it, the better the DT's can penetrate the gaps and create havoc the easier it'll be for Crowell or whomever plays MLB to make tackles. Brian Urlacher is a great LB, but without Tank "Jailtime" Johnson and Tommie Harris, the Bears aren't nearly the same caliber defense.

 

IMO the DT's the are the most important position on defense next to the MLB. If they don't do their job, the MLB has to do more.

[VABills]

Let's face it, the better the DT's can penetrate the gaps and create havoc the easier it'll be for Crowell or whomever plays MLB to make tackles. Brian Urlacher is a great LB, but without Tank "Jailtime" Johnson and Tommie Harris, the Bears aren't nearly the same caliber defense.

 

IMO the DT's the are the most important position on defense next to the MLB. If they don't do their job, the MLB has to do more.

I think we all agree with that. But unlike the outside LB's who rarely get a OLinemen on them the MLB typically will have one of the guards or the FB get a hat on him. The MLB will always have to shed a block to make the play. Speed while helpful especially in covering the underneath TE and slot WR's that do slant patterns, the biggest asset for a MLB is the ability to fill the gap and make the tackle, by getting through the blocks. 70% of the run plays will be between the tackles where the MLB has to be in on the play.

[The Dean]

http://www.buffalobills.com/blog/index.jsp?post_id=909

 

Brown makes an assumption that Fletch is the only one and I can tell you that about the only one that impressed me about attacking the LOS was Ellison. The rest were reacting rather than attacking.

 

 

Thanks for the link.

 

Again, if you're LBs have OLs on top of them (because the D-line lacks beef and skill) the play is ALREADY past the LOS. The lack of attack by the LBs had much more to do with the D-Line problems than with the LB's themselves, IMO.

 

I know you KNOW this, but it bears repeating: Much of what a player does or can do is dependent on the players around him and what scheme/play the D is in. The CBs used to get criticized for "soft coverage" allowing many catches underneath. Well, they were lining up 10 yards beyond the LOS. That was a Coaching decision. I never blamed the CBs for that. Same with our LBs. Given what they were working with, they did a remarkable job, IMO. (One thing for sure, the tackling on this team went downhill after Winfield left. It seems only Fletch made consistent tackles...oh, and Whitner)

[Coach Tuesday]

By the way, anyone else think Ellison = Cato June, which is why the Bills didn't pursue June?

[VABills]

Thanks for the link.

 

Again, if you're LBs have OLs on top of them (because the D-line lacks beef and skill) the play is ALREADY past the LOS. The lack of attack by the LBs had much more to do with the D-Line problems than with the LB's themselves, IMO.

 

I know you KNOW this, but it bears repeating: Much of what a player does or can do is dependent on the players around him and what scheme/play the D is in. The CBs used to get criticized for "soft coverage" allowing many catches underneath. Well, they were lining up 10 yards beyond the LOS. That was a Coaching decision. I never blamed the CBs for that. Same with our LBs. Given what they were working with, they did a remarkable job, IMO. (One thing for sure, the tackling on this team went downhill after Winfield left. It seems only Fletch made consistent tackles...oh, and Whitner)

I agree to a point, but part of the LB's job is to read the offensive blocking and fill the gaps. Even if a OLinemen is there which there will be in a lot of situations, because well there are 5 OL plus a TE and FB, and only 4 DL. Therefore some will always be uncovered. The ability for the LB to in effect be another quicker DL is apparant and the ability to read that gap, step into it and make the tackle in that gap at the LOS is important. Rarely does a DL make the tackle, but their job is to control the gaps for the LB who has to make the play.

 

A lot of our running defense problems last year BTW were not even up the middle, but rather poor angles by the OLB's and the Safeties. The coaches even mentioned that they were not getting outside and funneling things back to the middle. Remember the 50+ long run by the Lions Jones. Granted the DT's had issues but a lot more was caused by poor LB play. Including Fletch and Spikes. Ellison impressed me a lot, but it was painful watching him really attck and get tossed a few times because he weighs about 220 soaking wet. He needs to gain some weight, but his instincts and ability to attck the holes were pretty damn good if you asked me.

[obie_wan]

I agree to a point, but part of the LB's job is to read the offensive blocking and fill the gaps. Even if a OLinemen is there which there will be in a lot of situations, because well there are 5 OL plus a TE and FB, and only 4 DL. Therefore some will always be uncovered. The ability for the LB to in effect be another quicker DL is apparant and the ability to read that gap, step into it and make the tackle in that gap at the LOS is important. Rarely does a DL make the tackle, but their job is to control the gaps for the LB who has to make the play.

 

A lot of our running defense problems last year BTW were not even up the middle, but rather poor angles by the OLB's and the Safeties. The coaches even mentioned that they were not getting outside and funneling things back to the middle. Remember the 50+ long run by the Lions Jones. Granted the DT's had issues but a lot more was caused by poor LB play. Including Fletch and Spikes. Ellison impressed me a lot, but it was painful watching him really attck and get tossed a few times because he weighs about 220 soaking wet. He needs to gain some weight, but his instincts and ability to attck the holes were pretty damn good if you asked me.

 

I think our DL gets a bad rap for the poor run defense of last year.

 

As you note, the DL's main job is shoot the gaps and attack the backfield.

 

This results in cutback lanes and gaps which the LBs must fill. Our DL was doing a better job than they get credit for, but the LBs were working in sync to fill the gaps=

 

they were making tackles but past the line of scrimmage.

 

Bills will be upgrading the LBs in a big way in the draft.

[VABills]

I think our DL gets a bad rap for the poor run defense of last year.

 

As you note, the DL's main job is shoot the gaps and attack the backfield.

 

This results in cutback lanes and gaps which the LBs must fill. Our DL was doing a better job than they get credit for, but the LBs were working in sync to fill the gaps=

 

they were making tackles but past the line of scrimmage.

 

Bills will be upgrading the LBs in a big way in the draft.

Oh I am not forgiving the DL, especially the DT's. The problem they had was they were not tying up OLinemen consistantly. To a point you can have one shoot and disrupt, but the other has to be a stay at home, space taker. None was doing that.

[BillsVet]

Let's condense the LB situation:

 

1. TKO's health is still a concern, though he could bounce back but we won't know for awhile.

2. Crowell is getting better, but it's up in the air how versatile he is to switch to MLB.

3. A draft pick of either Willis at MLB or Posluszny at OLB might be in order. It depends on retaining Spikes and Crowell's adaptation to MLB. There are other names out there including Siler, Timmons, Harris, and others who may fall into the 3rd.

4. The team likes Ellison, but he certainly needs to be bigger and stronger to attack the LOS. A smart player.

5. The remaining group (Stamer, Haggan, Manning, Wire, et al.) are merely ST's or backups. Not much to work with.

 

Depth is an issue here. I'm sure the front office would love to dump Takeo for salary, performance and/or locker room reasons, but they're not in a position to do so yet. There are literally a host of options this team can take at LB. It's evident they won't pursue any free agents because they think they've got what it takes on the roster and or in the draft. That said, they must know something most people don't and are gambling that either a rookie or Crowell will be able to play MLB.

[Pyrite Gal]

I think our DL gets a bad rap for the poor run defense of last year.

 

As you note, the DL's main job is shoot the gaps and attack the backfield.

 

This results in cutback lanes and gaps which the LBs must fill. Our DL was doing a better job than they get credit for, but the LBs were working in sync to fill the gaps=

 

they were making tackles but past the line of scrimmage.

 

Bills will be upgrading the LBs in a big way in the draft.

 

I think that this point gets to one of the big questions where an explanation for our feebleness in stopping the run is to be found.

 

Was the problem here:

 

1. Simply poor play by F-B and his failure to attack the LOS and if we get better more attacking play from the MLB our ability to stop the run will improve.

2. Poor DT play as Triplett did not set the world on fire with his performance and one would hope an FA acquisition would and as unexpectedly nice as Williams DT play was in the end he was adequate at best as one would expect a second day picked rookie to be and whether it was because McCargo simply did not play well or he had just began to turn the corner when injury struck him down, the DT performance was poor.

3. The D scheme designed for Jauron by Fewell was not as productive as would want due to poor design or implementation.

4. Some combination of the above.

 

Put me down as a strong advocated for the view expressed in #4,

 

I don not think that one can find a solution to our poor run D merely by getting a more talented MLB, or only by upgrading DT performance, or by getting better performance by Fewell.

 

I think we need to improve significantly in all three of these aspects for our D to be as productive in stopping the run as we want it to be.

 

The bad news is that pulling off this multi-pronged simultaneous improvement will be quite difficult, but the good news is that there are ways that each of these things can be done and actually occur with resources already on hand.

 

1. Statistically, there seem to be few indicators that the problem with this D is seen in F-Bs play. If anyone expected him to be Lawrence Taylor, well sorry folks he was not and actually though it seems to be an oversight that he never has made the Pro Bowl despite him year and year out having been the leading tackler for the Bills (breaking Spielman's team record in his best year) and him pulling off objectively demonstrated accomplishments like leading NFL LBs in INTs last year.

 

Still even though F-B seemed IMHO opinion to do pretty much what he was asked to do in his career and last year for the Bills, I can see where the complaints come from that he initiates too many tackles deep in our backfield rather than at the LOS. The facts are what the facts are and we did not stop the run last year and this was one of the expectations we have for an MLB.

 

I think Fletcher might be more reasonably faulted for his play if he did not historically lead the Bills year in and year out in tackles to his credit. I think he could be be reasonably faulted if thos tackle numbers actually showed a lot of assisted tackles (as this would be a good indicator of the complaints of him being light in the pants being true as indication would be he could not tackle by himself). However, by a bout a 2:1 margin the credits he gets are for solo tackles so he brings folks down on his own,

 

The stats do not even seem to support the idea that he he is a non-attacking shrinking violet as he has shown indications of being a ballhawk with 2 TDs to his credit last year, and a number of sacks to his credit as well as leading all NFL LBs in INTs.

 

Fletch has been team captain for too long on a team which just has not gotten the job done, so moving on to something else makes sense if one's goal is to win. However, the stats seem to indicate pretty clearly that if one is saying that merely by getting rid of him we improve, maybe but probably not as there is an awful lot of performance here that will have to be replaced if we truly are to be improved.

 

For example, those who seem to feel that we are upgrading merely by drafting Willis are they really saying that they expect this rookie to lead all NFL LBs in INTs, they expect him to lead the team comfortably in tackles, and they expect him to both tackle with the effectiveness of a DT while covering passes with the effectiveness of a safety?

 

I hope he does, but I do not think anyone sees him as being even a top 10 player in the draft (and some folks have even offered credible opinions that we may even be able to trade down ad still get him).

 

I'm not sure what plan folks have who badmouth Crowell as being just another F-B (my sense if he leads the Bills in tackles to credit in 07 and leads LBs in INTs in 07 and scores a couple of TDs for the team he likely will call 07 a pretty good year. Their plan seems to be some certainty that a rookie Willis is going to have real world production which is better than this. The experience for draft watchers who lived through the Mike Williams and Joey Harrington debates is simply that Willis will not turn out to be a bust.

 

The good news for Bills fans is that Crowell has shown an ability to play call at MLB for the Bills as 2nd on the depth chart behind F-B and as long as he recovers from the injury which landed him on IR, the well over 100 tackles he was credited with when he filled in for TKO and the 90+ tackles he got last year before injury ended his season, the couple of nice pics he had last year and the couple of sacks he had are all indicators that he has the ball sense and the diverse skills needed for immediate production at MLB but he needs to step up.

 

2. Our DT was inadequate last year, but not only are we gonna see second Bill seasons from Triplett and Williams where we reasonably demand and expect improvement, but McCargo MAY have been just turning around his play when injury struck him down. It is possible that even from the current roster along we should see some DL improvement which may do a lot to answer the concern (which gets reduced to a mere whine if all one does is blame LB play for this problem) the complaint that F-B initiated hits to deep in our backfield.

 

3.There is clearly analysis of the run stopping problems here, as this factor was sited by Marv in his summary press event. I do not think we should fall though for this analysis simply getting folks to blame the LB play as sure they were not the reincarnation of Butkus or Taylor, but if they is what is required to make the Jauron/Fewell Cover 2 work, we are going to be waiting a long time for this to happen.

 

Fewell is simply going to have to make things work well with what he got if this is simply Crowell at MLB. If he cannot do it, the GM has the responsibility to get someone who can or if no MLB is available then the HC and DC net to implement the best scheme they can for the players we have.

 

If they choose to depend upon the rookie Willis to either produce results such that he leads the Bills in tackles AND leads all NFL LBs in INTS AND chips in with some sacks to his credit and a couple of TDS thats great. However, if all this draft pick means is a painful 07 in preparation for glory later on them one of Marv's dictums may be right, the HC who prepares for the future is likely not to be the HC in the future.