Chef Jim Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 I'd say it's a good thing. Look at Buffalo to see what happens when a city loses population. But did Buffalo go in the crapper because people left or did people leave because Buffalo went in the crapper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 But did Buffalo go in the crapper because people left or did people leave because Buffalo went in the crapper? Both. Once the manufacturing sector collapsed, the cycle started and it's fed off itself ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Both. Once the manufacturing sector collapsed, the cycle started and it's fed off itself ever since. But had WNY not had it's head up it's ass in the 70's in may not be in the state it is in today. Filling the void with poor immigrants is definately not the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 But had WNY not had it's head up it's ass in the 70's in may not be in the state it is in today. Filling the void with poor immigrants is definately not the answer. It'd certainly help the city's bottom line TODAY to have a burgeoning immigrant population, don'tcha think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 But had WNY not had it's head up it's ass in the 70's in may not be in the state it is in today. Filling the void with poor immigrants is definately not the answer. Really? I'm guessing that immigrants who would have settled in Buffalo in the '70s would be fairly big contributors to the tax base & the economy now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Really? I'm guessing that immigrants who would have settled in Buffalo in the '70s would be fairly big contributors to the tax base & the economy now. And you're basing this on? Let me ask you a question. Which will rebuild a broken city quicker. Unskilled labor or skilled specialized technical labor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 And you're basing this on? Let me ask you a question. Which will rebuild a broken city quicker. Unskilled labor or skilled specialized technical labor? If a city is broken, there's probably little demand for skilled specialized technical labor. In fact, that's been a big problem for Buffalo since the '70s, after the belated realization that manufacturing isn't going to stay. The old parable that the city was a factory town and not a headquarters town, didn't seed the area with an entrepreneurial base upon which to rebuild. The top down efforts to find a savior big employer to take over the old manufacturing base was, in retrospect a monumental mistake. Over that time, you had the best and brightest young people leave the region, and contribute to booming economies in other parts of the US. If there was an influx of immigration into Buffalo in the '70s, even at the unskilled levels, over the generation period we're talking about they would have developed self sustained economic growth, as the opportunities in the US are greater than in their home countries, and those immigrants tend to be more entrepreneurial than not. I also want to make a distinction that for this to have worked, the entire NYS tax regime and support mechanisms would have to have been different to entice this entrepreneurial growth. But since we're talking about pie in the sky hypotheticals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 If a city is broken, there's probably little demand for skilled specialized technical labor. In fact, that's been a big problem for Buffalo since the '70s, after the belated realization that manufacturing isn't going to stay. The old parable that the city was a factory town and not a headquarters town, didn't seed the area with an entrepreneurial base upon which to rebuild. The top down efforts to find a savior big employer to take over the old manufacturing base was, in retrospect a monumental mistake. Over that time, you had the best and brightest young people leave the region, and contribute to booming economies in other parts of the US. If there was an influx of immigration into Buffalo in the '70s, even at the unskilled levels, over the generation period we're talking about they would have developed self sustained economic growth, as the opportunities in the US are greater than in their home countries, and those immigrants tend to be more entrepreneurial than not. I also want to make a distinction that for this to have worked, the entire NYS tax regime and support mechanisms would have to have been different to entice this entrepreneurial growth. But since we're talking about pie in the sky hypotheticals... Your final paragraph pretty much sums it up. You need to entice and encourage that entrepreneurial growth and NYS was way too busy trying to fix NYC during the 70's to give two shitts about WNY. Look at the turn around in the city versus the fact that WNY is still pretty much in the crapper. If only the sun came out more in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Your final paragraph pretty much sums it up. You need to entice and encourage that entrepreneurial growth and NYS was way too busy trying to fix NYC during the 70's to give two shitts about WNY. Look at the turn around in the city versus the fact that WNY is still pretty much in the crapper. If only the sun came out more in Buffalo. I don't buy that. There's the preponderance to believe that the state's focus on NYC is hurting upstate, when it's the other way around. Downstate, when good, generates so much revenue, that there's no incentive to fix upstate. What happened in NYC at that time was the realization that manufacturing was gone and the city's massive bureaucracy needed a change to allow private development to grow. Most of the changes happened at the NYC level, with no help from Feds or NYS. Unfortunately, Buffalo never had the same epiphany and was always looking to Albany & DC for help. That's why the two areas are more different now than they were 30 yrs ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 Really? I'm guessing that immigrants who would have settled in Buffalo in the '70s would be fairly big contributors to the tax base & the economy now. What about today? The rust belt is said to be economically depressed, is it not? Do you think that an invasion of illegals, their anchor babies, and all of their medical bills (along with some Social Security money) would be the economic shot in the arm that WNY needs? Not seeing an economic drain there? Please. This is about rich people getting a better price playing golf at the country club, and big business paying people less to do more work with far fewer safety measures. Of course, the latter would also please a few scatteded hypocrites here, who scorn organized labor while at the same time cheerfully using their health plan. Or who say they crave illegal immigrants as long as they live far away from them (certainly you know I do not refer to you here). It's too bad that this thread sunk to such a low level. It got into racial purity, race mixing, and other nonsense. A couple of racist allegations were tossed my way as well. Great. What about the American people and what they want? The majority of Americans do not want to be illegally invaded. I am sure of this, yet we are being betrayed by elected officials who are bought and sold by big business, except middle class Americans are left with the tab. They are almost as dishonest as the liberal hypocrites who are for the invasion, as long as they live FAR away from them, and don't have to send their kids to school with the anchor babies, and pay local tax dollars for the child care of pregnant teen students who are here illegally. Especially those that pose as libertarians. We might even have a new category on this board....."Limosine Libertarians." Edit: Raise your hand if you want this next door to your home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 What about today? The rust belt is said to be economically depressed, is it not? Do you think that an invasion of illegals, their anchor babies, and all of their medical bills (along with some Social Security money) would be the economic shot in the arm that WNY needs? Not seeing an economic drain there? Please. This is about rich people getting a better price playing golf at the country club, and big business paying people less to do more work with far fewer safety measures. Of course, the latter would also please a few scatteded hypocrites here, who scorn organized labor while at the same time cheerfully using their health plan. Or who say they crave illegal immigrants as long as they live far away from them (certainly you know I do not refer to you here). It's too bad that this thread sunk to such a low level. It got into racial purity, race mixing, and other nonsense. A couple of racist allegations were tossed my way as well. Great. What about the American people and what they want? The majority of Americans do not want to be illegally invaded. I am sure of this, yet we are being betrayed by elected officials who are bought and sold by big business, except middle class Americans are left with the tab. They are almost as dishonest as the liberal hypocrites who are for the invasion, as long as they live FAR away from them, and don't have to send their kids to school with the anchor babies, and pay local tax dollars for the child care of pregnant teen students who are here illegally. Especially those that pose as libertarians. We might even have a new category on this board....."Limosine Libertarians." Edit: Raise your hand if you want this next door to your home! I was going to reply to one of Tom's posts. Then I realized that further mud-slinging between Tom, his wife, and myself would only distract people from posts such as this. While you and I may have different views about race, you put the case against illegal immigration very well. As you point out, the people who create our immigration policy are generally able to shield themselves and their families from the consequences their policies create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 I was going to reply to one of Tom's posts. Then I realized that further mud-slinging between Tom, his wife, and myself would only distract people from posts such as this. While you and I may have different views about race, you put the case against illegal immigration very well. As you point out, the people who create our immigration policy are generally able to shield themselves and their families from the consequences their policies create. Please never speak to me about wives, or other family members of any poster. I don't gang up on people, but your stance on race actually weakens the cause against illegal aliens. It has been implied (or perhaps stated) that I am against our country being invaded because of race. This implies that if there were 50 "white" people living next door in a small cape, using the back yard as a toilet, I would be fine with it. The thing is, it is NOT a racial issue. It is about a country having borders, and turning a blind eye to those that violate them. If that isn't crazy enough, we reward those who illegally enter with free medical care, advocates, affirmative action, and all sorts of other goodies. As an older person (I think), I offer up a little advice..... Get past this idiocy about race-mixing, etc. If you enter into a marriage, there is a better than 50% chance that you will get a divorce, no matter who you marry. Instead of concentrating on things like ethnicity, you might want to focus on the things that will matter when the honeymoon is over. All of you hypothetical views won't matter when you are standing in front of a judge, and he (or she) is giving everything you ever worked for (including the kids) to the woman accross the aisle from you. I have a feeling that the fact that she is white wouldn't soothe you at this point, ya know what I mean? Think about it. It isn't too late to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Please never speak to me about wives, or other family members of any poster. I don't gang up on people, but your stance on race actually weakens the cause against illegal aliens. It has been implied (or perhaps stated) that I am against our country being invaded because of race. This implies that if there were 50 "white" people living next door in a small cape, using the back yard as a toilet, I would be fine with it. The thing is, it is NOT a racial issue. It is about a country having borders, and turning a blind eye to those that violate them. If that isn't crazy enough, we reward those who illegally enter with free medical care, advocates, affirmative action, and all sorts of other goodies. As an older person (I think), I offer up a little advice..... Get past this idiocy about race-mixing, etc. If you enter into a marriage, there is a better than 50% chance that you will get a divorce, no matter who you marry. Instead of concentrating on things like ethnicity, you might want to focus on the things that will matter when the honeymoon is over. All of you hypothetical views won't matter when you are standing in front of a judge, and he (or she) is giving everything you ever worked for (including the kids) to the woman accross the aisle from you. I have a feeling that the fact that she is white wouldn't soothe you at this point, ya know what I mean? Think about it. It isn't too late to change. I'd say you're a lucky SOB to have married a Puerto Rican girl. They're gorgeous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 I'd say you're a lucky SOB to have married a Puerto Rican girl. They're gorgeous. They sure are. In the few Puerto-Rican neighborhoods that still exist in NYC, you can walk down the street and see tons of women who look better than J-Lo. The thing is, most of them are Americanized now, including my wife. My daughters; forget it. They consider themselves to be (and are in fact) conservative feminists. The "old days" were different. My wife literally obeyed her father until his death. You think she "obeys" me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 They sure are. In the few Puerto-Rican neighborhoods that still exist in NYC, you can walk down the street and see tons of women who look better than J-Lo. The thing is, most of them are Americanized now, including my wife. My daughters; forget it. They consiser themselves to be (and are in fact) conservative feminists. The "old days" were different. My wife literally obeyed her father until his death. You think she "obeys" me? !@#$ no, LOL. The best thing about Spanish girls is that they have the attitude. They're like the anti-white-bread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 You think she "obeys" me? Damn right she better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 What about today? The rust belt is said to be economically depressed, is it not? Do you think that an invasion of illegals, their anchor babies, and all of their medical bills (along with some Social Security money) would be the economic shot in the arm that WNY needs? Not seeing an economic drain there? Well, if we're talking about now, then there's no incentive to move there, since there are no jobs. Mexican's aren't stupid. But seriously, we can look at Hazleton PA as the perfect litmus test. They recently enacted laws that drove out the lately arrived Latinos (never mind that because of them Hazleton saw an upturn in population & economic activity, while rest of Northern PA is withering on a vine) We'll see whether Hazleton's remaining population will see the benefit of the outmigration of Hispanics like they think they will. I have a hunch, but will wait until real results come in. And again, I've yet to see a study conducted by an outfit other than opponents of immigration that show that immigrants are a net economic drain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 But had WNY not had it's head up it's ass in the 70's in may not be in the state it is in today. Filling the void with poor immigrants is definately not the answer. Seems war and immigrants were the only thing to EVER get WNY/BFLO's ecomomy rolling... Go check the facts... The problem was already well along BEFORE the 1970's... Wasn't Curtiss the first company to leave BFLO RIGHT after WWII in the late 1940's?... And the subsequent collapse of the nation's first (BFLO that is) aeropspace hub... I see it IMO, more as not WNY/BFLO "having its head up its ass" as it is private business' personal vendetta against the federal labor controls (leading to the huge influx of workers, higher wages, increased quality of life, etc...)... Of course FOLLOWED (which is not the sole or primary blame) by union support imposed DURING the war years... Some thanks WNY/BFLO gets for being "patriotic"... But I regress... Lets blame all immigrants! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 Wasn't Curtiss the first company to leave BFLO RIGHT after WWII in the late 1940's?... And the subsequent collapse of the nation's first (BFLO that is) aeropspace hub... Actually, Consolidated was the first airplane company to leave (for Los Angeles), just at the start of WWII. Curtiss didn't leave, so much as !@#$ up SO many projects (e.g. the SB2C Helldiver or SO3C Seamew) during the war that post-war the War Department/Department of Defense refused to buy from them, which basically shut them down. Bell hung around...but most of the aerospace industry moved to Southern California for the simple fact that the weather was more suitable for test flights there. Most people don't know that Buffalo was an aircraft manufacturing center in the '30s and '40s (Curtiss and Bell combined manufactured maybe 35k fighters in Buffalo, which makes the city maybe one of the top 10 aircraft maunufacturing centers in the world during WWII). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 Actually, Consolidated was the first airplane company to leave (for Los Angeles), just at the start of WWII. Curtiss didn't leave, so much as !@#$ up SO many projects (e.g. the SB2C Helldiver or SO3C Seamew) during the war that post-war the War Department/Department of Defense refused to buy from them, which basically shut them down. Bell hung around...but most of the aerospace industry moved to Southern California for the simple fact that the weather was more suitable for test flights there. Most people don't know that Buffalo was an aircraft manufacturing center in the '30s and '40s (Curtiss and Bell combined manufactured maybe 35k fighters in Buffalo, which makes the city maybe one of the top 10 aircraft maunufacturing centers in the world during WWII). Good points. Seattle has sh*tty weather too? The federal gov't, IMO is still the major factor (and blame) for creating the industrial labor climate during the war and exists well into today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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