Somebody please explain the difference between

[eball]

...because I get the impression a lot of folks think they're the same thing. It seems to me that the signing bonus is the cash paid up front when the player signs the contract, but the phrase guaranteed money includes other items (roster bonuses, base salary in first year of deal, etc.). Am I incorrect?

[Ramius]

yah you seem to be on the correct track. Signing bonus is the amount of money the player gets for signing the contract. If a player gets X dollars as a signing bonus, when he signs the contract, ralph gives him a check for X dollars.

 

Guaranteed money is split up as you said above, but i dont think it includes 1st year salary. Its comprised of signing bonus, roster bonuses, perhaps workout bonuses, etc. Basically, guaranteed money as opposed to a signing bonus is a way of still giving the player a large amount of guaranteed money, but not having to pay all the money in one shot up front. Its basically a payment plan to pay the player his guaranteed money.

[ganesh]

yah you seem to be on the correct track. Signing bonus is the amount of money the player gets for signing the contract. If a player gets X dollars as a signing bonus, when he signs the contract, ralph gives him a check for X dollars.

 

Guaranteed money is split up as you said above, but i dont think it includes 1st year salary. Its comprised of signing bonus, roster bonuses, perhaps workout bonuses, etc. Basically, guaranteed money as opposed to a signing bonus is a way of still giving the player a large amount of guaranteed money, but not having to pay all the money in one shot up front. Its basically a payment plan to pay the player his guaranteed money.

 

Except that I don't think we can include roster bonuses and workout bonuses into it....Aren't they incentive based clauses. I still think guaranteed bonus means the player gets that money no matter at what point of time the player gets cut.

 

For example, Travis Henry was owed a 8.5M roster bonus for being on the team on March 1st. The Titans cut him on Feb 28th to avoid paying that bonus. Does that count as guaranteed money in a contract. If so, that language seems foolish, as there was no guarantee that TH was going to get that money and in fact did not get the money.

[Kelly the Dog]

Except that I don't think we can include roster bonuses and workout bonuses into it....Aren't they incentive based clauses. I still think guaranteed bonus means the player gets that money no matter at what point of time the player gets cut.

 

For example, Travis Henry was owed a 8.5M roster bonus for being on the team on March 1st. The Titans cut him on Feb 28th to avoid paying that bonus. Does that count as guaranteed money in a contract. If so, that language seems foolish, as there was no guarantee that TH was going to get that money and in fact did not get the money.

There are two different things. Travis' was a roster bonus of 8 million, but wasn't a guaranteed bonus, like, say, there are guaranteed option bonuses. So in his case, the team had the choice whether to pay it or not. In the guaranteed case, there isn't a way out for the team. They are held to that money.

[eSJayDee]

You are correct in what a signing bonus is.

The reason there's "guaranteed" money that isn't merely a SB is due to the CBA & how a team wants to amortize the cost of said player. There is, or at least was, a limit to how far out a team can amortize the SB duration. For instance, Clements got an 8 yr contract & let's say a $16m SB, so you'd think that'd be $2m/yr of the amortised bonus for Cap purposes, but in actual fact, it can only be amortised over I'm guessing 5 yrs (let's say 4 to make the math easier), so his cap cost would then be $4m/yr in addition to his salary.

So instead of giving him say a $20m SB which would be amortized over 5 yrs (@ $4m/yr of an 8 yr cnt), they instead give him a $16m SB w/ another $4m guaranteed at some later time which would then be amortized over the remaining duration of the cnt.

.

It also might make things more 'flexible' when it comes time to cut him due to excessive Cap cost relative to production.

 

FWIW, from a practical standpoint, you can assume that the 1st yrs salary is guaranteed in that it's pretty certain that after forking out for a big SB, a team isn't going to cut a player who has a presumably pultry salary (in comparison).

(You could possibly even consider some subsequent yrs relatively gauranteed in that it often amounts to more cap cost to cut a player than to keep them.)

[ganesh]

There are two different things. Travis' was a roster bonus of 8 million, but wasn't a guaranteed bonus, like, say, there are guaranteed option bonuses. So in his case, the team had the choice whether to pay it or not. In the guaranteed case, there isn't a way out for the team. They are held to that money.

 

My point was can roster bonus be considered guaranteed bonus ?

[Kelly the Dog]

You are correct in what a signing bonus is.

The reason there's "guaranteed" money that isn't merely a SB is due to the CBA & how a team wants to amortize the cost of said player. There is, or at least was, a limit to how far out a team can amortize the SB duration. For instance, Clements got an 8 yr contract & let's say a $16m SB, so you'd think that'd be $2m/yr of the amortised bonus for Cap purposes, but in actual fact, it can only be amortised over I'm guessing 5 yrs (let's say 4 to make the math easier), so his cap cost would then be $4m/yr in addition to his salary.

So instead of giving him say a $20m SB which would be amortized over 5 yrs (@ $4m/yr of an 8 yr cnt), they instead give him a $16m SB w/ another $4m guaranteed at some later time which would then be amortized over the remaining duration of the cnt.

.

It also might make things more 'flexible' when it comes time to cut him due to excessive Cap cost relative to production.

 

FWIW, from a practical standpoint, you can assume that the 1st yrs salary is guaranteed in that it's pretty certain that after forking out for a big SB, a team isn't going to cut a player who has a presumably pultry salary (in comparison).

(You could possibly even consider some subsequent yrs relatively gauranteed in that it often amounts to more cap cost to cut a player than to keep them.)

I don't think that is true anymore, although I am not absolutely positive. This link says no, (at least it can be up to seven years) although it is not official. And a quick search had numerous other links that said it's over the length of the deal but I didnt consider them authorities, they were usually the official pages of the teams or fan sites. With a little more time I think I could find something definitive but according to this, with the new agreement that no longer exists.

 

http://members.cox.net/cappage/2006notes.htm

Amortization. Amortized bonuses can only be prorated over four years. In 2005 they were allowed to be prorated over 5 years. If the CBA is extended, they will be prorated over the life of the contract or 7 years, whichever is the shorter time period.

[Ramius]

My point was can roster bonus be considered guaranteed bonus ?

 

I believe you can guarantee the roster bonus. Either way, we are arguing semantics. Guaranteed money can be spread out over a few years/payments as opposed to a one time shot. The player is going to get his total amount of guaranteed money, regardless of the form it comes in.

[DANCOCK]

definition of

 

Bonus

 

1. something given or paid over and above what is due.

2. a sum of money granted or given to an employee, a returned soldier, etc., in addition to regular pay, usually in appreciation for work done, length of service, accumulated favors, etc.

3. something free, as an extra dividend, given by a corporation to a purchaser of its securities.

4. a premium paid for a loan, contract, etc.

5. something extra or additional given freely: Every purchaser of a pound of coffee received a box of cookies as a bonus.

 

 

so when a player get bonus money its extra money that is not apart of the contract money.

so player123 gets a 30 mil contract for 5 years w/ a 15 million signing bonus. his contract is still for 30 million, he will still recieve 30 million even tho he got 15 million to sign. so this contract is worth 45 million inreality if the player stays on the team for the 5 years. how ever teams were able to spread that bonus money cap hit for later years. so on the books the contract is for 45 million over 5 years. cap hit 9 million.

 

 

definition of

 

Guaranteed

 

 

1. a promise or assurance, esp. one in writing, that something is of specified quality, content, benefit, etc., or that it will perform satisfactorily for a given length of time: a money-back guarantee.

2. guaranty (defs. 1, 2).

3. something that assures a particular outcome or condition: Wealth is no guarantee of happiness.

4. a person who gives a guarantee or guaranty; guarantor.

5. a person to whom a guarantee is made.

–verb (used with object) 6. to secure, as by giving or taking security.

7. to make oneself answerable for (something) on behalf of someone else who is primarily responsible: to guarantee the fulfillment of a contract.

8. to undertake to ensure for another, as rights or possessions.

9. to serve as a warrant or guaranty for.

10. to engage to protect or indemnify: to guarantee a person against loss.

11. to engage (to do something).

12. to promise (usually fol. by a clause as object): I guarantee that I'll be there.

 

 

 

 

 

so when a player is getting Guaranteed money hes not getting any more cash other then what the contract is stating.

so when player145 signed for 49 million w/ 18 million Guaranteed, hes only getting 49 million no more.

So the team doesnt have to give him that 18 million now or by a certain date. they are just Guaranting that he will get atleast 18 million of that 49 million contract. unless the contract/s state otherwise.

 

 

 

so the way i see it a player like Dockery is only gonna have a cap hit of 7 million.

 

 

i see the bills bringing in atleast 2 more FA and giving them decent cash.

 

 

 

i dont get why every one is making a big deal over these new contracts. players are just getting Guaranteed cash instead of bonus cash. didnt ray lewis get like a 49 million contract w/ like 20 million in BONUS money a few years ago? i could be wrong, but that is just like the contract Nate got from the Niners except nates is Guaranteed cash and hes not getting that Guaranteed cash upfront.

[oregonbbfan]

Please correct me if I misunderstand this but if it's a signing bonus, it's also amortized equally across the length of the cntract. Example: $10mil bonus over 5 year contract is $2 mil mill per year against the cap unless player is cut in which case any remaining bonus accrues against the next year's cap. Yearly salary can split up the balance of the contract any way you want to load it.

 

The garanteed contract can be more complicated and may not be completely defined in the CBA. A garanreed amount can be garanteed salary and not subject to the amoritization rule. Example: A contract is 5 year $25mill with $10 garanteed ( paid over 2 years). Player gets $5 and $5 mil ( or any combination to make up $10 mil ) first 2 yrs whether he makes the team or is injured. It can also be considered salary ( ala Ant. Winfield's $12 mil) and need not be amortized or subject to pull up if contract canceled. If say player is cut after 2nd year, no money is dead and team is done paying. That's how I understand it but someone real knowledgeable in the CBA can clear it up further.

 

This is risky way to do business but one that doesn't reqire a lot of cash because the TV money will pay for them in salary. Again, if you get the right guys and they perform and stay healthy, you hit the jackpot. I think Ralph has to take these chances to compete.

 

There are many other creative nuiances that can be done i.e., part garanteed, garanteed and salary in same year and even some bonus cash or combination of all. So yes, it is getting more creative and more complicated.

[Pyrite Gal]

i dont get why every one is making a big deal over these new contracts. players are just getting Guaranteed cash instead of bonus cash. didnt ray lewis get like a 49 million contract w/ like 20 million in BONUS money a few years ago? i could be wrong, but that is just like the contract Nate got from the Niners except nates is Guaranteed cash and hes not getting that Guaranteed cash upfront.

 

The reason why this is a big deal is because if there is a difference between the definition of a word as it is used in the normal world or printed in a dictionary and how it is defined or used in the CBA, then the CBA rules and normal usage or how its defined in the dictionary is thrown out.

 

If the definitions you cite are from the CBA then folks should pay attention, however if they are from the dictionary or merely reality as you and I know it in the real world, then they can be ignored for this discussion as any convergence with the pseudo reality of the NFL may simply be coincidental.

[Stussy109]

Guaranteed is exactly that, guaranteed, whether the cuy is cut, breaks his neck or never plays a down, he is entiteled tot hat money, so essentially its a signing bonus prorated over the course of the contract cap wise.

[obie_wan]

Please correct me if I misunderstand this but if it's a signing bonus, it's also amortized equally across the length of the cntract. Example: $10mil bonus over 5 year contract is $2 mil mill per year against the cap unless player is cut in which case any remaining bonus accrues against the next year's cap. Yearly salary can split up the balance of the contract any way you want to load it.

 

The garanteed contract can be more complicated and may not be completely defined in the CBA. A garanreed amount can be garanteed salary and not subject to the amoritization rule. Example: A contract is 5 year $25mill with $10 garanteed ( paid over 2 years). Player gets $5 and $5 mil ( or any combination to make up $10 mil ) first 2 yrs whether he makes the team or is injured. It can also be considered salary ( ala Ant. Winfield's $12 mil) and need not be amortized or subject to pull up if contract canceled. If say player is cut after 2nd year, no money is dead and team is done paying. That's how I understand it but someone real knowledgeable in the CBA can clear it up further.

 

This is risky way to do business but one that doesn't reqire a lot of cash because the TV money will pay for them in salary. Again, if you get the right guys and they perform and stay healthy, you hit the jackpot. I think Ralph has to take these chances to compete.

 

There are many other creative nuiances that can be done i.e., part garanteed, garanteed and salary in same year and even some bonus cash or combination of all. So yes, it is getting more creative and more complicated.

 

 

NO-

 

This is simple.

 

Any amount of money due under the contract that is guaranteed is treated exactly as a signing bonus and amortized over the life of the contract (up to 7 years).

 

Any payments,whether roster bonus, salary or otherwise, can be guaranteed.

 

The only difference is that a true "signing" bonus is paid in year 1 upon execution of the contract. Guaranteed amounts can be paid at any time, but will be paid even if the player cut.