ajzepp Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 Is there really anyone left who does not understand that we traded next year's 1st round pick for JP? We traded the pick. It's gone. There is nothing we can do about it, other than trading for additional picks. JP is our #1 pick.....give the kid a chance to show what he can do. Who cares about Dallas?? The deal is done. It's been done sine April. I don't really care if the cowboys get a top 5 pick or not. How does that affect us? The real issue is our team not performing up to their potential and what is going to be done about it. If Dallas ends up getting a stud with that pick, and JP ends up being a flop, then revisit the topic then....but right now, we don't know what kind of a trade that will turn out to be. There are enough other things to criticize......
puppet Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 I agree. If it's the number 1 pick in the draft then that means we've got the number one in each of the next rounds. The number one costs a fortune and is not a garuntee of future success. Look at San Diego who completely wasted a top pick on Ryan Leaf. Now they are 3 and 2 and winning with a team that many thought was devoid of talent other than LT. Our number one for next year, JP Losman, should give us better returns than Ryan Leaf ... and even if he doesn't - that doesn't garuntee future failure. Plus, JP's contract doesn't break the bank. Right now it looks like Dallas will have two high number 1s next year ... but that doesn't mean that the Bills can't be a great team next year. I'm just glad that we've got JP now so that he's had his first year of exposure to this team under his belt. Hopefully next year he will be able to provide a spark to this offense that it sorely needs.
Bill from NYC Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 Fair enough. It is too early to tell whether or not the trade was a disaster, although imo, all signs point to it being one. I can only offer my reasons why... For one, the trade was not exactly as you described. We did not merely swap #1s. We gave them a #2 as well. Also, during the draft, did you have even a hint that this could very possibly be a first selection of a draft? I certainly did not. Moreover, would you have made the deal if you thought that the Bills would be this bad, and be looking at a top 5 in 05? Look at the price teams have paid for the #1 selection. Think about what the giants gave for Manning. TD gave up a possible #1 selection AND a second round pick for Losman who was drafted where? See what I mean? He could have taken him at #13 and kept all these picks. You are right about one thing....it is done, and there is no turning back. Let's just say that for this deal to NOT be viewed as awful, JP will have to truly be a top flight quarterback, which is certainly possible, and the Bills need to win some games. I hope this too IS possible, but I am not holding my breath.
John from Riverside Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 Puppet....I agree with what you are saying...but it still burns my but to think we give Dallas a good draft pick..... I actuallly think it wont be so good...this team is going to start winning games....and they will pick in the late teams
CajunBillsBacker Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 Agreed! We still only traded a #2 pick for our 1st next year IMO. If JP can atleast make us competitive again, where teams would look on their schedule and see the Bills and say "Watch out for them", then I still think it's a fair trade. People don't realize, we would have had no choice but to use our 1st rounder next year on a QB anyways, and JP is clearly better than any QB thats going to be in this weak QB class next year.
ajzepp Posted October 11, 2004 Author Posted October 11, 2004 Bill, I know what you are saying. And you're right, there was no part of me that even thought this would be anything other than a very low round 1 pick for Dallas. And even given that fact, I was uneasy about the Losman selection. But now that I've seen and heard him through one training camp and I've watched the guy go out there and light up even Mike Shanahan's eyes in limited duty, I'm hopeful that this guy may be the real deal. He may not be, though. But we just don't know yet. Like I said, if Dallas ends up with some stud with that pick, and JP ends up being a flop, then I say go ahead and revisit the topic. But for right now I just don't see how anyone can even use it to justify their "Donahoe sucks" mantra.
Mark VI Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 One final time. The trade allowed us to move up about 25 spots for a 2nd pick in round 1 from round 2. Dallas moved back 25 spots into the 2nd round. In return, they received a 5th rounder this past April and the Bills #1 in 2005. So the trade was for a 5th in 2004 and a 1st in 2005. We picked our next QB with that pick. How was this a bad trade ?? Makes no sense. We needed a QB, no ? BTW- Parcells was crushed in the press for passing on Steven Jackson ( selected by the Rams in round #1 ) and settling for ND's Julius Jones, who wasn't playing well and is now hurt. Dallas is 2-2 and had to turn to Eddie George. Ask the Dallas fans if they give a royal crap about the #1 pick in 2005 at present. They were booing their team as they left the field yesterday.
RkFast Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 Last I checked, good QBs dont grow on trees. Only if JP becomes anything LESS than a decent starting QB who can keep this team in contention, the fact that the pick the Bills gave up turned out to be a high pick means squat. I truly dont understand why so many fail to grasp the concept that sports trades are not designed to be one-sided.
BillsGuyInMalta Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 People who B word about losing that pick truly boggle my mind. Apparently they would rather we NOT have Losman and instead get to choose from the bounty of QBs available in this year draft for our future. I mean, what with QB megastars like Kyle Orton and Andrew Walter out there...
Bill from NYC Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 Bill, I know what you are saying. And you're right, there was no part of me that even thought this would be anything other than a very low round 1 pick for Dallas. And even given that fact, I was uneasy about the Losman selection. But now that I've seen and heard him through one training camp and I've watched the guy go out there and light up even Mike Shanahan's eyes in limited duty, I'm hopeful that this guy may be the real deal. He may not be, though. But we just don't know yet. Like I said, if Dallas ends up with some stud with that pick, and JP ends up being a flop, then I say go ahead and revisit the topic. But for right now I just don't see how anyone can even use it to justify their "Donahoe sucks" mantra. 65785[/snapback] Hey, could we be seeing almost eye to eye on a football subject? My biggest beef with TD is the LT position. I was never sold on Jennings at LT, less so when he stated that he wanted to play in Atlanta. That said, we HAD a #4 in 02, and he squandered it on a fat RT, who MAY be good, someday. Now, we may finish with a horrid record. We would have been in a spot to get a premier LT. These guys are gone in a heartbeat on draft day. You know that. Pace, Ogden, etc. The list goes on. This team has not had a very good LT since Wolford. How WILL we get one? Friggin Jennings will ask for a fortune in free agency! How much will Pace and Jones want? Plus, teams are ever so reluctant to trade these guys. In summary, if TD had not whiffed so badly with Big Mike in 02, I would probably be as positive as you about this deal. I want to see a great left tackle on the Buffalo Bills to protect Losman. Bro, Drew, with all of his limitations, would have beat the jests yesterday on the road if Jennings had even an average day, instead of being disgraced, or so I see it.
jad1 Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 Hey, could we be seeing almost eye to eye on a football subject? My biggest beef with TD is the LT position. I was never sold on Jennings at LT, less so when he stated that he wanted to play in Atlanta. That said, we HAD a #4 in 02, and he squandered it on a fat RT, who MAY be good, someday. Now, we may finish with a horrid record. We would have been in a spot to get a premier LT. These guys are gone in a heartbeat on draft day. You know that. Pace, Ogden, etc. The list goes on. This team has not had a very good LT since Wolford. How WILL we get one? Friggin Jennings will ask for a fortune in free agency! How much will Pace and Jones want? Plus, teams are ever so reluctant to trade these guys. In summary, if TD had not whiffed so badly with Big Mike in 02, I would probably be as positive as you about this deal. I want to see a great left tackle on the Buffalo Bills to protect Losman. Bro, Drew, with all of his limitations, would have beat the jests yesterday on the road if Jennings had even an average day, instead of being disgraced, or so I see it. 65820[/snapback] Jennings also played that game recovering from a concussion. Maybe he shouldn't have played, but I don't believe he's that bad with a clear head.
Bill from NYC Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 One final time. The trade allowed us to move up about 25 spots for a 2nd pick in round 1 from round 2. Dallas moved back 25 spots into the 2nd round. In return, they received a 5th rounder this past April and the Bills #1 in 2005. So the trade was for a 5th in 2004 and a 1st in 2005. We picked our next QB with that pick. How was this a bad trade ?? Makes no sense. We needed a QB, no ? BTW- Parcells was crushed in the press for passing on Steven Jackson ( selected by the Rams in round #1 ) and settling for ND's Julius Jones, who wasn't playing well and is now hurt. Dallas is 2-2 and had to turn to Eddie George. Ask the Dallas fans if they give a royal crap about the #1 pick in 2005 at present. They were booing their team as they left the field yesterday. 65789[/snapback] Mark, my friend, I am unsure as to how much it matters whether or not Dallas fans are thinking about the 05 draft right now. If the Bills continue to play like this, they WILL be happy sons of bi%^he$ next April. This trade could work. It could also be a flop. I will go a step further and say that Evans figures deeply into the equation. We need a guy like him, and he is playing well. This points toward a good trade for the Bills, because they could have merely taken JP at #13. As I stated in another post, I want to know when and where will we get a premier LT? It looks like we could have had the guy from FSU the way the Bills are playing.
Mark VI Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 Evans is here to eventually replace Moulds, maybe sooner than you think. With a 8.75 Mil cap figure next season, he must take a restructure or he is toast. 8.75 Mil could pay for 2,3 new starters in 2005 March Free Agency.
Coach Tuesday Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 Um, don't forget, Dallas right now has egg on its face from outbidding the Bills for Drew Henson, who has looked awful and is currently behind TONY ROMO on the depth chart. JP looked FAR better than Henson in the preseason (and Stephen Jackson looked FAR better than Julius Jones). So I'd say it's a wash - I don't care if Dallas gets a top-five pick, it's quality over quantity, people.
ajzepp Posted October 11, 2004 Author Posted October 11, 2004 Um, don't forget, Dallas right now has egg on its face from outbidding the Bills for Drew Henson, who has looked awful and is currently behind TONY ROMO on the depth chart. JP looked FAR better than Henson in the preseason (and Stephen Jackson looked FAR better than Julius Jones). So I'd say it's a wash - I don't care if Dallas gets a top-five pick, it's quality over quantity, people. 65901[/snapback] Good point.....there is more reason to be hopeful about JP than there is to not be. The guy has a chip on his shoulder, and I like that. Anyone who watched Sounds of the Game saw how he ALREADY has command of the huddle. It appears to come natural to him. Does that mean we'll one day put him up there with Jimbo? Nope......but as of right now, I say his future looks bright. I'd rather have this guy suiting up for us now, than have the opportunity to draft the next Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, etc, etc, etc.
Ray Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 JP Losman is our 1st round pick in the 2005 draft--'nuff said!
ATBNG Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 Losman hasn’t played a down in the NFL yet, so I think that it is painfully obvious that it is not yet fair to judge yet whether this trade is good or bad. The fair criticism of Donahoe, which I think is entirely valid, is that his actions last offseason were entirely inconsistent. He made what in all likelihood was going to be a bad “value” trade for the rights to get Losman – he acquired a “low” first but gave up an unknown first, a second and a fifth to do so. Granted, 2004 is thought to be a better draft than 2005 and that mitigates this somewhat (someone earlier pointed out correctly in the thread that it can be a bad thing to have a high pick in a bad draft, because you have to pay out the same dollars as you do in a good draft), but it still seems like he was likely to lose in the end on “value.” Just based on pure statistics, the 2005 pick was 70% likelier to be higher in the draft than the 2004 pick he acquired, and he gave up a 2nd (in a very good draft) and a fifth on top of it. The performance of the actual players dealt/picked will ultimately determine this (and their performance in relation to the cap), but I thought Donahoe was basically hitting on 18 here – sure Losman might be the magic 3, but the odds were against the deal working out in Buffalo’s favor. Also, Donahoe has been in Buffalo long enough now to accept full responsibility for being put in this situation where is faced with the possibility of having no answers in the near future at QB, so when he makes a bad “value” deal such as this one, he only has his own past mistakes to blame for being in this unenviable position. Let’s ignore Losman for a second. If Donahoe is then going to rationalize this deal by saying that Losman is a rare talent and that the Bills needed to give a little extra to get him because of this fact and because there is nothing on the horizon in college for the next two seasons, then why restructure Drew later in the summer instead of cutting him? Be decisive and go with Losman and bring in a lower priced veteran for 2004 who might have to take the reins for a while (but hopefully would play backup). Take the hit on Drew but set your cap up for more flexibility down the road (I realize it is not as simple as this, and that the acceleration might have meant losing other players). Instead, Donahoe hedged his bet on Losman by bringing Drew back. So let’s consider what might have happened with Drew. He either was going to play at the level he has (which I think most would say is mediocre by NFL standards – even “Drew” backers would admit that part of what they hope for with him is a return to form to early 2002 or mid 1998) or he was going to play significantly better. If he were to play well (and subsequently the Bills were to win more games), the pick decreases in value but the need for Losman also decreases. If he were to play badly (and subsequently the Bills continued to play .400 ball as they had since he arrived), the need for Losman would be enhanced but now that 2005 pick is a much bigger price to pay for Losman. It seems as though Donahoe gambled that the Bills would do well and that Drew would play badly, making the future pick less valuable and making the need for JP more justifiable. Instead, almost the exact opposite has happened – Bledsoe has played OK yet the Bills can’t win a game. I think the latter scenario that has played out has been quite unlucky. I think the former scenario was a preposterous thing to plan for by Donahoe. There seems to be a sentiment among some in the thread that they would have had to take a QB in the 2005 draft had they not done the Losman trade. If you really believe that, then that in and of itself is a real criticism of Donahoe, because a good general manager in this league does not put his team in that position.
Recommended Posts