BillsVet Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 Yes and 6th round picks don't win the SB. Given that he was a 5th round rookie, I'll give him his 2nd season to show himself. Rarely do teams select Tom Brady's in the late rounds. I presume you're attempting to suppress my argument that late round picks rarely make NFL starters by using the one example that says otherwise. OK, let's look at New England. From 2000-2005 (I will not judge their 06 picks because we all know you cannot comment on a player with only one season in the NFL) the Pats made 32 selections in Rounds 4 thru 7. As of today, a mere 8 remain on the roster. (Brady, FB Patrick Pass, DE Jarvis Green, CB Asante Samuel, C Dan Koppen, OLB Tully Banta-Cain, SS James Sanders, and QB Matt Cassel) Now, we can easily agree Brady and Samuel are excellent NFL'ers. Koppen starts and Banta-Cain is a good contributor, though he was benched in the playoffs. I chose those years to research because 2000 was Belichick's first season as coach in NE. We all know he and GM Pioli are extremely adept at finding talent, and all they took from 6 drafts in the 4-7 was 2 excellent starters, a C and a regular OLB. Now, is it wrong to question if one 5th round pick might be a consistent NFL starter? I don't believe so. The fact is, Buffalo had Ko Simpson, K. Williams, Ellison, and Pennington playing regularly or starting last season. Though the Pats are an entirely different team, they've been the standard for drafting well. What makes you believe that 3-4 guys from the 2006 draft alone will be long term, quality NFL starters? I just wanted to offer the other end of the spectrum regarding Williams. He was a big time player for LSU during their 2003 NCAA title season. So he's got heart. But heart only gets you so far in the NFL.
MadBuffaloDisease Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 Give me a player with less talent, but a great work ethic and heart, over a more talented, lazy coaster any day of the week. Again I'll wait to see what KW shows this year, considering it's not a great year for DT's.
The Big Cat Posted February 21, 2007 Author Posted February 21, 2007 I just wanted to offer the other end of the spectrum regarding Williams. He was a big time player for LSU during their 2003 NCAA title season. So he's got heart. But heart only gets you so far in the NFL. Ah yes, but how far is SO far? I will agree that heart but little talent will limit an NFL player's INDIVIDUAL accomplishments, but a team full of "hearty" guys has unlimited potential. Right?
dave mcbride Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 Working against him: he has been a high energy guy for a while now, so it isn't like he has been dogging it in the college weight room and we should expect miracles this year. Working for him: he is a high energy guy, and no reason he shouldn't be able to maximize his athletic performance curve over the next several years as his body matures and become more physical. Remember, our D, for better or for worse, does not have room for Ted Washington because of how it is designed. We don't need him to go from 295 to 325. But going to 300-305 and getting stronger and smarter in the process could really make him a better player. That same D design allowed for the bears to start ted washington and keith traylor in 01, when they went 13-3 and led the league in run defense (and were coached by Jauron).
silvermike Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 You can talk about someone's draft status before they play a down. Now that Williams isn't a rookie any more, who cares when he was drafted? He showed promise last year, the coaches like him, and that's what we're basing it on. The success rate for 5th round picks isn't what we should be looking at any more, it pales in relevance to the success rate of DTs who started as a rookie, or some similar measure.
silvermike Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 That same D design allowed for the bears to start ted washington and keith traylor in 01, when they went 13-3 and led the league in run defense (and were coached by Jauron). Except that this is Perry Fewell's Cover-2, not Dick Jauron's 4-3.
justnzane Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 You can talk about someone's draft status before they play a down. Now that Williams isn't a rookie any more, who cares when he was drafted? He showed promise last year, the coaches like him, and that's what we're basing it on. The success rate for 5th round picks isn't what we should be looking at any more, it pales in relevance to the success rate of DTs who started as a rookie, or some similar measure. well draft status is a huge part still, becuase it is a bearing on how much we are paying him. That said, we are still holding losman to his draft status after year 3, so we might be holding williams to that in a sense just as long. BTW congrats on the 1k mark Except that this is Perry Fewell's Cover-2, not Dick Jauron's 4-3. shhh.... stop bringing in facts to this discussion... he was on a roll
BillsVet Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 I guess we'll just have to wait until opening day and the 2007 season to see what those 06 rookies do. I just don't bank on former 5th rounders to be impact players and guys who could start for a majority of NFL teams. If all 32 teams pass on a guy at least four times, there's a pretty good reason. Sometimes all 32 teams are wrong. But more often than not, a guy usually doesn't have much potential when they're drafted late. If Williams improves, great. If not, we didn't have much of an investment made. You could make the same argument for Pennington, Ellison, Merz, Butler, Simpson, etc. We didn't invest that much in these guys. It's not as if they're 1st rounders. BTW, I'm sure there are a lotta hard workers who want to play in the NFL only they're playing in the CFL, NFL Europe and the Arena League. I'm sure you'll find many who have heart, just not the talent to play in the NFL. Take about a team worth of their best and you're still not going to have a very good team because they're woefully short on talent.
BUFFALOTONE Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 Wow! That guy Mendelson who benched 875 his dad was my P.E. teacher in middle school. He was an absolute nut job, but a nice guy. He used to tell me his son could bench 600 lbs. I thought he was full of sh--. Guess I was wrong. That was also about 1992-94. Crazy .
justnzane Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 I guess we'll just have to wait until opening day and the 2007 season to see what those 06 rookies do. I just don't bank on former 5th rounders to be impact players and guys who could start for a majority of NFL teams. If all 32 teams pass on a guy at least four times, there's a pretty good reason. Sometimes all 32 teams are wrong. But more often than not, a guy usually doesn't have much potential when they're drafted late. If Williams improves, great. If not, we didn't have much of an investment made. You could make the same argument for Pennington, Ellison, Merz, Butler, Simpson, etc. We didn't invest that much in these guys. It's not as if they're 1st rounders. BTW, I'm sure there are a lotta hard workers who want to play in the NFL only they're playing in the CFL, NFL Europe and the Arena League. I'm sure you'll find many who have heart, just not the talent to play in the NFL. Take about a team worth of their best and you're still not going to have a very good team because they're woefully short on talent. In all fairness, one round earlier, you don't expect 4th rounders to make a whole lot of impact, but a former bills fourth rounder named reed is heading into the hall of fame. So, it isn't unfair to expect some impact from some of the late round picks.
Matt in KC Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 My intention in starting thread was to incite critcism from the 'nay sayers- the negative nancy's. just to see if my optimism regarding Kyle Williams could be shot down. but the only people responding have responded with nothing but positive input. I'm actually kinda middle-of-the road on Kyle as a "run-stopper". I really like him because of his effort, strength and underdog late-round status. But, I do have concerns about him if he can't stay on his feet and hold the point of attack. Fortunately, the descriptions I hear of the Tampa 2 D say the DTs need to create chaos, so maybe this isn't as important as I think. Given that this was his first year, I suspect Kyle will play better each of the next couple years and will not be the weakest link on our D-Line. He looked better to me in year 1 than Tim Anderson ever did (minus one late season game last year... though I forget the opponent). I'm certainly routing for him!
BillsVet Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 In all fairness, one round earlier, you don't expect 4th rounders to make a whole lot of impact, but a former bills fourth rounder named reed is heading into the hall of fame. So, it isn't unfair to expect some impact from some of the late round picks. Did you read my comment on the Pats drafting from 2000-05? All I'm saying is the chances of 4th-7th rounders becoming impact or solid players in the NFL are not great.
justnzane Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Reed got into the Hall? he'll make, i'm that confident about it.
justnzane Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Did you read my comment on the Pats drafting from 2000-05? All I'm saying is the chances of 4th-7th rounders becoming impact or solid players in the NFL are not great. I did I am just saying that maybe we should expect a gem like reed to come around now and then.
DrDawkinstein Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 he'll make, i'm that confident about it. lol, me too, just messin.
BillsVet Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 I'd rather have a guy who is an overacheiver as a 5th rounder than a highly drafted guy who is an underachiever. At least a hard worker can motivate some of the people around him. Every now and then a guy comes around from nowhere. I believe Pat Williams was a UDFA. I'm not referring to his release or anything, just that he's so tough against the run, so it can happen. Hopefully the coaches can plug Kyle in there and use a top pick or FA pick up to address other areas.
billybob Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Yes Kyle Williams he's the answer to all our woes -he has heart- miles and miles of heart- We'll win the Superbowl cause our team is so plucky- then they make a movie about it - Mr Burns will play Ralph and Dick Van Dike will play Marv- Keona Reeves will play J.P.- it will put Buffalo on the map then every business will want to be here and all our taxes will go down and they'll build a stadium in the city and instead of making it a dome stadium they'll build the dome over the whole city so we won't have to shovel snow anymore- it will be freaken great and we will owe it all to Kyle Williams .
stuckincincy Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Yes Kyle Williams he's the answer to all our woes -he has heart- miles and miles of heart- We'll win the Superbowl cause our team is so plucky- then they make a movie about it - Mr Burns will play Ralph and Dick Van Dike will play Marv- Keona Reeves will play J.P.- it will put Buffalo on the map then every business will want to be here and all our taxes will go down and they'll build a stadium in the city and instead of making it a dome stadium they'll build the dome over the whole city so we won't have to shovel snow anymore- it will be freaken great and we will owe it all to Kyle Williams . If they cut him he'd last about 30 seconds on the waiver wire before some other team claimed him.
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