JimBob2232 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-MYq2TZ73Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 This particular brand of the "gotcha" stuff really has to stop. It's embarrassing, more to the person doing it than the politician, however slimy the vast majority of them are. At that point in time, when he said that, he had no intention of running for President in 08. And thought it was a silly question. And said so. Most people in politics and the press and the country, at that time, thought it was pretty silly, too, because they all thought he was an up and coming impressive guy but had no chance. He wasn't ready. Now, since then, a lot has changed. Mostly because of the war. And the dissatisfaction with the Washington insiders. And a lot of people think, now, that he is a very viable candidate, and it's not so silly anymore. And he realized that he can win. Myself, back then, I didn't think he had a chance. Now I do. That doesn't mean I necessarily think he is going to win the nomination or the Presidency, but he has a good chance at the former. Back when he made that statement, I would have thought he had no chance and shouldn't run for at least another term. He thought he had no chance then and said it. He thinks he has a chance now so he's running. He didn't know he was running then and hide from everyone or lie. It's not a lie, it's not a flipflop, it's not disingenuous, it's a simple change of circumstance, events and mindset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimBob2232 Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 This particular brand of the "gotcha" stuff really has to stop. It's embarrassing, more to the person doing it than the politician, however slimy the vast majority of them are. At that point in time, when he said that, he had no intention of running for President in 08. And thought it was a silly question. And said so. Most people in politics and the press and the country, at that time, thought it was pretty silly, too, because they all thought he was an up and coming impressive guy but had no chance. He wasn't ready. Now, since then, a lot has changed. Mostly because of the war. And the dissatisfaction with the Washington insiders. And a lot of people think, now, that he is a very viable candidate, and it's not so silly anymore. And he realized that he can win. Myself, back then, I didn't think he had a chance. Now I do. That doesn't mean I necessarily think he is going to win the nomination or the Presidency, but he has a good chance at the former. Back when he made that statement, I would have thought he had no chance and shouldn't run for at least another term. He thought he had no chance then and said it. He thinks he has a chance now so he's running. He didn't know he was running then and hide from everyone or lie. It's not a lie, it's not a flipflop, it's not disingenuous, it's a simple change of circumstance, events and mindset. THIS particular brand? The part where a candidate actually says things that are used against them? The brand that really needs to stop is the stuff that is unfounded and cannot be proved. The "he put a deer head in a black familys mailbox". THOSE are what needs to be stopped. I give you this, this is a minor issue. Could he have changed his mind? Of course. But I think its much more likely he said this in 2000, while running for senate, because Illinois wanted a senator who would represent them and not have further political ambitions. In and of itself, it is a minor issue. But it goes a long way toward building the case that everything he says is said for political gain, and not becasue he believes it. Not saying the republicans are ANY better... But to say THIS brand of gotcha politics needs to stop? Please. Its his own words. If we cant hold a politician accountable for what he/she says...where are we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 THIS particular brand? The part where a candidate actually says things that are used against them? The brand that really needs to stop is the stuff that is unfounded and cannot be proved. The "he put a deer head in a black familys mailbox". THOSE are what needs to be stopped. I give you this, this is a minor issue. Could he have changed his mind? Of course. But I think its much more likely he said this in 2000, while running for senate, because Illinois wanted a senator who would represent them and not have further political ambitions. In and of itself, it is a minor issue. But it goes a long way toward building the case that everything he says is said for political gain, and not becasue he believes it. Not saying the republicans are ANY better... But to say THIS brand of gotcha politics needs to stop? Please. Its his own words. If we cant hold a politician accountable for what he/she says...where are we? Because this isn't at all the kind of stuff that we should be holding people accountable for their words. This is a clear and almost inarguable case of events changing and evolving. You are using it as he's just another politician who flipflops or talks out of both sides of his mouth or outright lies and I think that's really stretching it. Embarrassingly so. There are a lot of things to criticize Obama for, or question him, or reasons to think he is a terrible candidate or answer for the Presidency. The "gotcha" of him saying three years ago he had no intention of running when he had no intention of running ain't it. He wasn't planning on running one year ago, from his own words, let alone three years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson_golden2002 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 THIS particular brand? The part where a candidate actually says things that are used against them? The brand that really needs to stop is the stuff that is unfounded and cannot be proved. The "he put a deer head in a black familys mailbox". THOSE are what needs to be stopped. I give you this, this is a minor issue. Could he have changed his mind? Of course. But I think its much more likely he said this in 2000, while running for senate, because Illinois wanted a senator who would represent them and not have further political ambitions. In and of itself, it is a minor issue. But it goes a long way toward building the case that everything he says is said for political gain, and not becasue he believes it. Not saying the republicans are ANY better... But to say THIS brand of gotcha politics needs to stop? Please. Its his own words. If we cant hold a politician accountable for what he/she says...where are we? So your trying to say that a guy denying he is running for President 3 years ago is more important than a guy being a flaming racist, with lots of evidence to back it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimBob2232 Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 So your trying to say that a guy denying he is running for President 3 years ago is more important than a guy being a flaming racist, with lots of evidence to back it up? Correct. A flaming racist is perfectly acceptable. Changing your mind on a minor issue 3 years ago is a MUCH MUCH bigger deal. You found me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 THIS particular brand? The part where a candidate actually says things that are used against them? The brand that really needs to stop is the stuff that is unfounded and cannot be proved. The "he put a deer head in a black familys mailbox". THOSE are what needs to be stopped. I give you this, this is a minor issue. Could he have changed his mind? Of course. But I think its much more likely he said this in 2000, while running for senate, because Illinois wanted a senator who would represent them and not have further political ambitions. In and of itself, it is a minor issue. But it goes a long way toward building the case that everything he says is said for political gain, and not becasue he believes it. Not saying the republicans are ANY better... But to say THIS brand of gotcha politics needs to stop? Please. Its his own words. If we cant hold a politician accountable for what he/she says...where are we? How could Obama running for President be anything BUT a "silly question" in '04? He hadn't held national office nor been a Governor (either of which would appear to be a prerequisite to running a legitimate Presidential campaign), it could have been argued quite legitimately back then that he would not have the experience after only 2 years in the US Senate to begin a legitimate Presidential campaign. And even though he appears a legitimate candidate now, he is still very far from the Democratic nomination, much less the office itself, and I would be very surprised if his lack of experience isn't a major obstacle for him to overcome in the current election cycle. There are a lot of things I might like to get indignant over Dems actions and views; I am having a hard time seeing how this should be one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 THIS particular brand? The part where a candidate actually says things that are used against them? The brand that really needs to stop is the stuff that is unfounded and cannot be proved. The "he put a deer head in a black familys mailbox". THOSE are what needs to be stopped. I give you this, this is a minor issue. Could he have changed his mind? Of course. But I think its much more likely he said this in 2000, while running for senate, because Illinois wanted a senator who would represent them and not have further political ambitions. In and of itself, it is a minor issue. But it goes a long way toward building the case that everything he says is said for political gain, and not becasue he believes it. Not saying the republicans are ANY better... But to say THIS brand of gotcha politics needs to stop? Please. Its his own words. If we cant hold a politician accountable for what he/she says...where are we? I hope you gave the happy ending on this reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bungee Jumper Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 This particular brand of the "gotcha" stuff really has to stop. It's embarrassing, more to the person doing it than the politician, however slimy the vast majority of them are. At that point in time, when he said that, he had no intention of running for President in 08. And thought it was a silly question. And said so. Most people in politics and the press and the country, at that time, thought it was pretty silly, too, because they all thought he was an up and coming impressive guy but had no chance. He wasn't ready. Now, since then, a lot has changed. Mostly because of the war. And the dissatisfaction with the Washington insiders. And a lot of people think, now, that he is a very viable candidate, and it's not so silly anymore. And he realized that he can win. Myself, back then, I didn't think he had a chance. Now I do. That doesn't mean I necessarily think he is going to win the nomination or the Presidency, but he has a good chance at the former. Back when he made that statement, I would have thought he had no chance and shouldn't run for at least another term. He thought he had no chance then and said it. He thinks he has a chance now so he's running. He didn't know he was running then and hide from everyone or lie. It's not a lie, it's not a flipflop, it's not disingenuous, it's a simple change of circumstance, events and mindset. Heavily implicit in your post is that the deciding factor in running is "Can I win?" That's arguably the biggest problem with our governmental process... As for Obama...gee, he said he wouldn finish his Senate term, now he's not keeping his promise. That would make him...a politician? Seriously, I wouldn't hold it against him (if he were my Senator, I might feel differently), as it simply sets him equal to everyone else. It would be nice, though, if just one elected official kept a promise just once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UConn James Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 THIS particular brand? The part where a candidate actually says things that are used against them? The brand that really needs to stop is the stuff that is unfounded and cannot be proved. The "he put a deer head in a black familys mailbox". THOSE are what needs to be stopped. I give you this, this is a minor issue. Could he have changed his mind? Of course. But I think its much more likely he said this in 2000, while running for senate, because Illinois wanted a senator who would represent them and not have further political ambitions. In and of itself, it is a minor issue. But it goes a long way toward building the case that everything he says is said for political gain, and not becasue he believes it. Not saying the republicans are ANY better... But to say THIS brand of gotcha politics needs to stop? Please. Its his own words. If we cant hold a politician accountable for what he/she says...where are we? Heavily implicit in your post is that the deciding factor in running is "Can I win?" That's arguably the biggest problem with our governmental process... As for Obama...gee, he said he wouldn finish his Senate term, now he's not keeping his promise. That would make him...a politician? Seriously, I wouldn't hold it against him (if he were my Senator, I might feel differently), as it simply sets him equal to everyone else. It would be nice, though, if just one elected official kept a promise just once. 1) JimBob, when someone invents a machine where you can download someone's every thought and you hook it up to Obama and post the results showing deep-seated political 'vaulting ambitions,' then I'll agree with you. But you make the case from this that he lies about everything? On the contrary, he's been honest to the point of recklessness to quote the Grateful Dead. If I'm hellbent on buying a combo smoke/CO alarm and then find out that buying seperate alarms is a better idea b/c smoke rises to the ceiling and CO stays toward the floor and change my original stance, does that mean I was lying or that I simply made a different, better choice once I had more facts? Or should I pick the combo unit just to be able to say I adhered to some absurd principle bordering on hubris? Three years is three lifetimes.... 'Sh-- Happens'. That you condescend to lord this meaningless crap over someone, as KTFABD said, it says more about you than Obama. 2) "Can I win" is the most important question when running. How can you see it as a problem? Implicit in that question is whether a candidate's ideas are ones that American voters agree with, or the candidate's estimation that he can make a good argument to show or convince people they are. He thinks he can do a good job and lead the country with an optimism and hope that have been seriously lacking in our govt for a long time. If he feels he can lead the country best among the other candidates, it would be a shame if he didn't run. If he has good ideas and can broker the melting pot necessary to win the presidency, he'll go places, if not, he'll go back to Ill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 2) "Can I win" is the most important question when running. How can you see it as a problem? Implicit in that question is whether a candidate's ideas are ones that American voters agree with, or the candidate's estimation that he can make a good argument to show or convince people they are. He thinks he can do a good job and lead the country with an optimism and hope that have been seriously lacking in our govt for a long time. If he feels he can lead the country best among the other candidates, it would be a shame if he didn't run. If he has good ideas and can broker the melting pot necessary to win the presidency, he'll go places, if not, he'll go back to Ill. I don't want to put words in any Bungee Jumper's mouth, especially this one's, who seems to have enough of them going around in there 24-7-365.25... BUT... I think I know what he means by that. "Can I win" eliminates good solid candidates, and more importantly eliminates any chance of change in the clusterfukk that is our Presidential elections. People who cannot win, surely should be running, to show there are other options out there, and hopefully, at some point, we can change this particular brand of the two party system that downright stinks right now, and has generated some of the worst candidates in American history over the last 3-4 decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier in france Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I don't want to put words in any Bungee Jumper's mouth, especially this one's, who seems to have enough of them going around in there 24-7-365.25... BUT... I think I know what he means by that. "Can I win" eliminates good solid candidates, and more importantly eliminates any chance of change in the clusterfukk that is our Presidential elections. People who cannot win, surely should be running, to show there are other options out there, and hopefully, at some point, we can change this particular brand of the two party system that downright stinks right now, and has generated some of the worst candidates in American history over the last 3-4 decades. be careful with what you wish Kelly or you could end with one of those 15 candidates french presidential races we are just starting here, with about 10 wackos among the 15 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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