Pyrite Gal Posted February 12, 2007 Posted February 12, 2007 In addition to it seeming quite unlikely that the Bills will be willing to sacrifice being in the drivers' seat contractually with McGahee by trading him (for those who worry about him lacking motivation he will have every financial reason to want to be productive this year. If he is not then you let him walk and if he is great then you tag and keep or tag and trade). Some folks seem to care so much about who he sleeps with and his crack (or on crack) fiscal advice, that they would be happy to trade him for the total speculation of a draft picks (there have been a couple of recitations of RBs who have been drafted in the 1st round over the years and the majority of them were disappointments so its hard to see Marv or anyone throwing their fates to the unknown of even a well-regarded draft pick as a replacement rather than sticking with the devil they know with WM's NFL production. The amusing thing for me though is the basic contradiction involved with dealing him. If WM is in fact such a negative (and I do not hear from any of his teammates that they have a problem with him despite the rants of us fans) then why would anybody give you anything of value for him. On the other hand, if folks propose that we are going to get our next definite #1 RB for him, then what are we giving up that makes him so valuable for another team to give us what in essence is a stud runner for him. The world wonders.
tennesseeboy Posted February 12, 2007 Posted February 12, 2007 when all is said and done Willis will do for this year. Nothing to do with his sleeping habits or stupidity in dealing with the press, just his plain average or slightly above average ability...There may be something more there, although I haven't seen it. I can't see dealing him at this point. As to trades and drafts our needs are really much more compelling in the offensive and defensive line. I think WM is going to be just fine for this year. We'll see what develops after that.
Dr. Trooth Posted February 12, 2007 Posted February 12, 2007 The amusing thing for me though is the basic contradiction involved with dealing him. If WM is in fact such a negative (and I do not hear from any of his teammates that they have a problem with him despite the rants of us fans) then why would anybody give you anything of value for him. On the other hand, if folks propose that we are going to get our next definite #1 RB for him, then what are we giving up that makes him so valuable for another team to give us what in essence is a stud runner for him. Let's forget Willis' off field allegations and such. If we consider just his "on field" production, we've learned that he is one dimensional and below the curve. Sure, he can catch a pass and he can run the ball. But, with how much effectiveness? He scares no defense. He is not only a non-factor in the passing game, he's actually a liability. He constantly misses blitz pick ups, and when he does catch a pass, he goes nowhere. His lack of running abilty is well documented. With, for the most part, a three year career as a starter plus a rookie season in which all he had to do was rehab, learn, and eat pablum, he still has managed only a 3.9 YPC production... not even the NFL average for a RB. The Willis apologists will always blame the Oline or whatever. At what point does Willis 'own' his own lack of productivity? And, you are 'right on' that these ridiculous posts proposing Willis be traded for something of value are contradictory... and also flat out stupid. Right now, I dare say there is not one single team in the NFL (outside the Bills and perhaps not even them) that consider Willis a viable option to fill their team's #1 RB position. In other words... no team is considering Willis as an answer to their RB woes. At best he would be considered to 'share' the load or perhaps fill the #2 RB. With a year left on his contract, if he were offered up in a trade, the Bills would be lcky to garner a 4th round pick. Anything higher than that, the Bills ought to be cited for gouging.
Rubes Posted February 12, 2007 Posted February 12, 2007 With a year left on his contract, if he were offered up in a trade, the Bills would be lcky to garner a 4th round pick. Anything higher than that, the Bills ought to be cited for gouging. At last, someone else who understands this.
ieatcrayonz Posted February 12, 2007 Posted February 12, 2007 In addition to it seeming quite unlikely that the Bills will be willing to sacrifice being in the drivers' seat contractually with McGahee by trading him (for those who worry about him lacking motivation he will have every financial reason to want to be productive this year. If he is not then you let him walk and if he is great then you tag and keep or tag and trade). Some folks seem to care so much about who he sleeps with and his crack (or on crack) fiscal advice, that they would be happy to trade him for the total speculation of a draft picks (there have been a couple of recitations of RBs who have been drafted in the 1st round over the years and the majority of them were disappointments so its hard to see Marv or anyone throwing their fates to the unknown of even a well-regarded draft pick as a replacement rather than sticking with the devil they know with WM's NFL production. The amusing thing for me though is the basic contradiction involved with dealing him. If WM is in fact such a negative (and I do not hear from any of his teammates that they have a problem with him despite the rants of us fans) then why would anybody give you anything of value for him. On the other hand, if folks propose that we are going to get our next definite #1 RB for him, then what are we giving up that makes him so valuable for another team to give us what in essence is a stud runner for him. The world wonders. Phew! When I first read the title of this thread I thought you were going to say that you're not really a girl. I don't know if you have seen but some on this site have claimed it to be true. I have defended your honor and will continue in this effort.
Dr. Trooth Posted February 12, 2007 Posted February 12, 2007 when all is said and done Willis will do for this year. Nothing to do with his sleeping habits or stupidity in dealing with the press, just his plain average or slightly above average ability. All due respect... If Willis "will do" for this year, then the Bills will not see significant improvement on offense. We've already seen the extent of his ability and productivity and, if you consider a career 3.9 YPC "above average", I'd like to know what you consider 'just average' or 'below average'. 4.0 is what is considered average by NFL standards... which means a 4.1 YPC would be above average by definition. God help this Bills team if it's hopes are dependant on Willis' production.
In space no one can hear Posted February 12, 2007 Posted February 12, 2007 Phew! When I first read the title of this thread I thought you were going to say that you're not really a girl. I don't know if you have seen but some on this site have claimed it to be true. I have defended your honor and will continue in this effort. No this isn't yet another thread on whether or not "Gal" is really "Guy" Rather it's just the mandatory daily McGahee thread.
tennesseeboy Posted February 12, 2007 Posted February 12, 2007 All due respect... If Willis "will do" for this year, then the Bills will not see significant improvement on offense. We've already seen the extent of his ability and productivity and, if you consider a career 3.9 YPC "above average", I'd like to know what you consider 'just average' or 'below average'. 4.0 is what is considered average by NFL standards... which means a 4.1 YPC would be above average by definition. God help this Bills team if it's hopes are dependant on Willis' production. 3.9 is nothing to write home to mama about...but its pretty mediocre. The "above average" statement reflects hope that with a better offensive line and an injury free season he might up it a bit. I've got to admit that to date he isn't much...but he's okay and might be better with a better offensive line. In any event we can't win with the existing pass rush and the existing run defense...we can win with the existing running game...and I have this inexplicable feeling (for what its worth) that WM can play a little better than he has so far.
Pyrite Gal Posted February 12, 2007 Author Posted February 12, 2007 Just to be clear about things (things meaning the Bills and not about my demographics or anything which really is trivia as far as TSW is concerned). I do think that we should simply stay the course and play WM as our #1 RB because most of the cards are really in the Bills hands with him contractually. His 2006 season was pretty disappointing looking at the numbers with a low YPC and limited production in the receiving game. However, I think any mostly rational look at his career stats and the events surrounding his prospects are: 1. WM is no where near showing the results he offered prior to his traumatic injury at the end of his career. However, the Bills docs were correct in judging that his injuries though traumatic and devastating appeared to be clean tears with the proper development and very hard work by WM could in fact be recovered from to allow him to be a credible NFL player and even starter. Anyone who saw the injury or heard the long list of tears would have been reasonable in figuring his career was essentially done. However, in the crapshoot known as the draft, a player touted as a top 5 pick being available at #23 is a rarity and given what the Bills docs said, this was a reasonable risk to take and while it has not paid off yet, the Bills docs look pretty good and TD made a ballsy choice. 2. Particularly of note is the game his first season of play (2004) when he went out of the game with a knee injury against the Bengals and despite being listed as doubtful all week came back to pick up 105 yards on 15 carries the next week against SF. He not only showed that the showcase drills he did to try to pump up his draft position though clearly not a real indicator he was ready to play (he almost certainly needed the full year of rehab the Bills gave him in 2003) were in fact a good indicator that he would do the work necessary to be able to take the field and in fact, since he has produced over 25 carries for us in a few games he is a workhorse who can be counted upon to carry the rock. 3. On the downside though, despite a great start in terms of effort and work by him and in rushing yardage (like it or not he is the fastest Bills to gain 2,000 yards on the ground and while this no way whatsoever makes him better than complete RB HOF player Thurman or great football player/horrendous person OJ, it is a remarkable achievement that shows even the post-injury WM has potential. The potential is yet unrealized though (which is what makes it potential) as really his production on the field hit a highpoint the middle of last season leading to his since flat out wrong comments that he is an "elite RB" and he has been disappointing (except against NYJ) ever since, particularly when one looks at his YPC. The bottomline IMHO appears to be this: 1. The Bills hold the cards for the most part with WM this season as if he sucks they let him go but if he is great then it is our choice whether to tag and keep him, tag and trade him, or if we both want to show him the money and agree to a long-term deal. The only way for WM to attempt to control the situation would be for him to hold out, but particularly coming off a less than productive season he likely hurts himself financially if he decides to be such a bad actor and unreliable teammate that he gains his freedom. In addition, while his agent Drew Rosenidiot is a loudmouth, he has record of having his client come to camp and play and fear expressed by some of a holdout seem fairly baseless and against WM's financial interests. 2. Further, some complain (whine?) about him being unmotivated. I think this is a judgment which likely says more about the judger than an RB who can carry the ball 25 times in a game, but in any case everyone agrees that money certainly has proven to be a big time motivator for this player who worked out on his hobbled leg to get a draft spot and make it back to be capable of playing in the NFL. I suspect that in his FA year motivation will likely not be an issue. 3. Still, WM is a player who has yet to reach the potential or level we want and keeping him as your only option to be a 16 game starter is not a smart thing to do. Thomas did a great job filling in for WM when he went down last year, but no one mistakes him for someone you would rely on as your #1 RB. Therefore, the smart football move for the Bills would seem to be to draft a player (or sign yet another vet as a cheap FA) who has the potential to become a starter down the line who can fill the role Shaud Williams has not taken by storm and offer some competition to further motivate WM or even replace him in the longrun if necessary. it is to be hoped that such a player can be found on the second day of draft as we have other needs on the OL and DL and to deal with our FAs like NC, Fletch and Kelsay for us to spend a first day pick on an RB who may never see much PT for us anyway. I like where we are at RB right now and though you want to improve everywhere, this position is far from a major need for us except among those who for some reason care what WM says. As long as his teammates have no problem with him (and I have heard no teammate complaints about him) I have no problem with him because I do not care what he thinks I only care how he plays and may play this year. Those who argue that we can find a #1 RB even late in the draft don't worry as all need is to find a potential RB somewhere in this draft and I think we are all set with a second day RB pick.
beerme1 Posted February 12, 2007 Posted February 12, 2007 In addition to it seeming quite unlikely that the Bills will be willing to sacrifice being in the drivers' seat contractually with McGahee by trading him (for those who worry about him lacking motivation he will have every financial reason to want to be productive this year. If he is not then you let him walk and if he is great then you tag and keep or tag and trade). Some folks seem to care so much about who he sleeps with and his crack (or on crack) fiscal advice, that they would be happy to trade him for the total speculation of a draft picks (there have been a couple of recitations of RBs who have been drafted in the 1st round over the years and the majority of them were disappointments so its hard to see Marv or anyone throwing their fates to the unknown of even a well-regarded draft pick as a replacement rather than sticking with the devil they know with WM's NFL production. The amusing thing for me though is the basic contradiction involved with dealing him. If WM is in fact such a negative (and I do not hear from any of his teammates that they have a problem with him despite the rants of us fans) then why would anybody give you anything of value for him. On the other hand, if folks propose that we are going to get our next definite #1 RB for him, then what are we giving up that makes him so valuable for another team to give us what in essence is a stud runner for him. The world wonders. Just to be clear about things (things meaning the Bills and not about my demographics or anything which really is trivia as far as TSW is concerned). I do think that we should simply stay the course and play WM as our #1 RB because most of the cards are really in the Bills hands with him contractually. His 2006 season was pretty disappointing looking at the numbers with a low YPC and limited production in the receiving game. However, I think any mostly rational look at his career stats and the events surrounding his prospects are: 1. WM is no where near showing the results he offered prior to his traumatic injury at the end of his career. However, the Bills docs were correct in judging that his injuries though traumatic and devastating appeared to be clean tears with the proper development and very hard work by WM could in fact be recovered from to allow him to be a credible NFL player and even starter. Anyone who saw the injury or heard the long list of tears would have been reasonable in figuring his career was essentially done. However, in the crapshoot known as the draft, a player touted as a top 5 pick being available at #23 is a rarity and given what the Bills docs said, this was a reasonable risk to take and while it has not paid off yet, the Bills docs look pretty good and TD made a ballsy choice. 2. Particularly of note is the game his first season of play (2004) when he went out of the game with a knee injury against the Bengals and despite being listed as doubtful all week came back to pick up 105 yards on 15 carries the next week against SF. He not only showed that the showcase drills he did to try to pump up his draft position though clearly not a real indicator he was ready to play (he almost certainly needed the full year of rehab the Bills gave him in 2003) were in fact a good indicator that he would do the work necessary to be able to take the field and in fact, since he has produced over 25 carries for us in a few games he is a workhorse who can be counted upon to carry the rock. 3. On the downside though, despite a great start in terms of effort and work by him and in rushing yardage (like it or not he is the fastest Bills to gain 2,000 yards on the ground and while this no way whatsoever makes him better than complete RB HOF player Thurman or great football player/horrendous person OJ, it is a remarkable achievement that shows even the post-injury WM has potential. The potential is yet unrealized though (which is what makes it potential) as really his production on the field hit a highpoint the middle of last season leading to his since flat out wrong comments that he is an "elite RB" and he has been disappointing (except against NYJ) ever since, particularly when one looks at his YPC. The bottomline IMHO appears to be this: 1. The Bills hold the cards for the most part with WM this season as if he sucks they let him go but if he is great then it is our choice whether to tag and keep him, tag and trade him, or if we both want to show him the money and agree to a long-term deal. The only way for WM to attempt to control the situation would be for him to hold out, but particularly coming off a less than productive season he likely hurts himself financially if he decides to be such a bad actor and unreliable teammate that he gains his freedom. In addition, while his agent Drew Rosenidiot is a loudmouth, he has record of having his client come to camp and play and fear expressed by some of a holdout seem fairly baseless and against WM's financial interests. 2. Further, some complain (whine?) about him being unmotivated. I think this is a judgment which likely says more about the judger than an RB who can carry the ball 25 times in a game, but in any case everyone agrees that money certainly has proven to be a big time motivator for this player who worked out on his hobbled leg to get a draft spot and make it back to be capable of playing in the NFL. I suspect that in his FA year motivation will likely not be an issue. 3. Still, WM is a player who has yet to reach the potential or level we want and keeping him as your only option to be a 16 game starter is not a smart thing to do. Thomas did a great job filling in for WM when he went down last year, but no one mistakes him for someone you would rely on as your #1 RB. Therefore, the smart football move for the Bills would seem to be to draft a player (or sign yet another vet as a cheap FA) who has the potential to become a starter down the line who can fill the role Shaud Williams has not taken by storm and offer some competition to further motivate WM or even replace him in the longrun if necessary. it is to be hoped that such a player can be found on the second day of draft as we have other needs on the OL and DL and to deal with our FAs like NC, Fletch and Kelsay for us to spend a first day pick on an RB who may never see much PT for us anyway. I like where we are at RB right now and though you want to improve everywhere, this position is far from a major need for us except among those who for some reason care what WM says. As long as his teammates have no problem with him (and I have heard no teammate complaints about him) I have no problem with him because I do not care what he thinks I only care how he plays and may play this year. Those who argue that we can find a #1 RB even late in the draft don't worry as all need is to find a potential RB somewhere in this draft and I think we are all set with a second day RB pick. After I read your first post I was going to say thanks for condensing your thoughts. After I read your second post, well, nevermind.
stuckincincy Posted February 12, 2007 Posted February 12, 2007 All due respect... If Willis "will do" for this year, then the Bills will not see significant improvement on offense. We've already seen the extent of his ability and productivity and, if you consider a career 3.9 YPC "above average", I'd like to know what you consider 'just average' or 'below average'. 4.0 is what is considered average by NFL standards... which means a 4.1 YPC would be above average by definition. God help this Bills team if it's hopes are dependant on Willis' production. I remember a 10-year vet who finished his career with a 3.6 YPC. Ended up with 10,441 yards, 68 rush tds. 10 td recptions. 9 playoff appearances, 4 Pro Bowls. Noted for getting the tough, important yards. Kept drives alive. What a bum that Eddie George was...
1billsfan Posted February 12, 2007 Posted February 12, 2007 I remember a 10-year vet who finished his career with a 3.6 YPC. Ended up with 10,441 yards, 68 rush tds. 10 td recptions. 9 playoff appearances, 4 Pro Bowls. Noted for getting the tough, important yards. Kept drives alive. What a bum that Eddie George was... Eddie was a move the pile player that was an integral cog on those very successful Titan teams. When they needed three or four yards he'd get it for them. Willis is more of the feast or famine type. He breaks a couple of big gainers every game then he'll get stuffed on his next ten carries. Though the average per carry is comparable, the effect on the team's fortunes is quite different. Also, George showed no fear in taking on blitzing linebackers. Willis has a major flaw. Either it's that talent-wise he was and always will be too slow to get to the hole or that he'll finally perform because he needed the prospect of a contract year to motive him in 2007. I don't like either proposition. When we first got Willis I was expecting him to dominate the league as long as he came back from the injury in that bowl game. It's clear to me that this isn't going to happen for whatever reason. Maybe he never came fully back. Maybe he's fully back and he's just an average runningback. Maybe he's not giving it his all. Maybe he's looking to turn on the jets in his contract year. At this point, I really don't care anymore. I hope the Bills will turn the page on Willis sooner rather than later, getting the best offer for him in terms of a 2007 draft pick. If that makes me a Willis basher, so be it.
IndyJay1234 Posted February 12, 2007 Posted February 12, 2007 I really dont care about how he plays lets face facts folks. Willis has had some terrible press conferences of late.... I mean just terrible...
Matt in KC Posted February 12, 2007 Posted February 12, 2007 With a year left on his contract, if he were offered up in a trade, the Bills would be lcky to garner a 4th round pick. Anything higher than that, the Bills ought to be cited for gouging. Not only that, if we keep him for his last year, we're likely to get a 5th (?) round compensatory pick next year for losing a 1st round Free Agent, right?
Pyrite Gal Posted February 13, 2007 Author Posted February 13, 2007 Not only that, if we keep him for his last year, we're likely to get a 5th (?) round compensatory pick next year for losing a 1st round Free Agent, right? Actually no one is compensated specifically one for one for a player lost, but all your losses to FA are balanced with your gains and then compensatory picks are given out. So it depends on who the Bills also lose tp FA in the year he goes (if he goes) and that is balanced by who the Bills sign. These compiled player values are individually calculated in some black box formulation by an NFL committee and no one has been able to figure it out so teams for the most part simply ignore any additions they will get in the draft until the actual assignment happens. This is particularly true as the compensation given for lost players has dropped over the years from initial assignment of 1st round pick compensation to 3rd (or maybe even 4th rounders as the top compensation today. In general one needs to simply figure that anyone who is lost to FA will not bring you any real compensation back. Still them is the rules and sometimes you benefit by signing a TKO with nothing given up and sometimes you lose a Winfield.
John from Riverside Posted February 13, 2007 Posted February 13, 2007 In addition to it seeming quite unlikely that the Bills will be willing to sacrifice being in the drivers' seat contractually with McGahee by trading him (for those who worry about him lacking motivation he will have every financial reason to want to be productive this year. If he is not then you let him walk and if he is great then you tag and keep or tag and trade). Some folks seem to care so much about who he sleeps with and his crack (or on crack) fiscal advice, that they would be happy to trade him for the total speculation of a draft picks (there have been a couple of recitations of RBs who have been drafted in the 1st round over the years and the majority of them were disappointments so its hard to see Marv or anyone throwing their fates to the unknown of even a well-regarded draft pick as a replacement rather than sticking with the devil they know with WM's NFL production. The amusing thing for me though is the basic contradiction involved with dealing him. If WM is in fact such a negative (and I do not hear from any of his teammates that they have a problem with him despite the rants of us fans) then why would anybody give you anything of value for him. On the other hand, if folks propose that we are going to get our next definite #1 RB for him, then what are we giving up that makes him so valuable for another team to give us what in essence is a stud runner for him. The world wonders. I would like to trade him because it seems like he gets hurt on every third play......serously have we EVER had a starting RB that was attended to by the team staff on the sideline as much as Magehee? God I miss Thurman Thomas
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