Lost S3 Discussion Thread

[Realist]

Me too. IMO, she's had it with Ben's manipulation and is working the middle against the two ends. Ben may have planted her, but I sense she has her own agenda.

Thats what I'm thinking too. In that last scene where she and Ben were talking about what she was supposed to do, Ben left the gas mask (I believe it was a gas mask) and got up and left. The way she put her hand down on the mask, it looked like she was about to fling it off the table in rage.

[Ramius]

I'm in the camp that juliet has either switched sides, or is going to string ben along to get what she wants. I dont think she has it in her to betray jack. Some of the other lostaways, perhaps, but not jack. (part of this could be coming from the fact i think shes gorgeous and dont want her to screw over jack and the lostaways). I think shes simply had enough of ben's "lies" and his preventing her from going to see her sister.

 

The island definitely has connections with cancer and birth, as mentioned above. As an aside that may be a bit crazy, i wonder if its possible that the "others" are trying to build a cancer-free society (hence the reason ben was shocked he had a tumor). They have their list of "good" people. Perhaps "good" means that these select few are "good" genetically, as opposed to moral character. The others have the means to gather genetic profiles, and can screen for any potential "genetic defects" that could lead to cancer in the future. It would also play a role in their obsession with kids.

[ofiba]

It would also play a role in their obsession with kids.

 

I would say that the kidnapping of children is their only way to keep their society running. They can't give birth, so they have to kidnap children and raise them as their own instead of procreating.

[UConn James]

Thats what I'm thinking too. In that last scene where she and Ben were talking about what she was supposed to do, Ben left the gas mask (I believe it was a gas mask) and got up and left. The way she put her hand down on the mask, it looked like she was about to fling it off the table in rage.

 

See, I'm not seeing all that. If her ulterior motive was to join in with the Lostaways, she prol'y wouldn't have bogarted Kate when she opened the door to deliver food and then again in the jungle, and she wouldn't have given away that she had the key to the cuffs. Kate suspects her, Sayid suspects her. No matter what Jack says and no matter what Juliet does. They both know that the Others will give a little and then play you like a fool/use you in their experiments. How many times has Jack been totally, totally wrong about the Others and what he thinks they'll do, and Sayid has been totally, totally right? I think trusting Juliet is Jack's last mistake as the Leader. Notice the last moment of last night was her tying that knot forcefully; she's going to do what she needs to do and go back to the Others and Ben, who showed last night that he is "a man of [his] word." She does believe that; and by doing this plan she will either try to get off the island.... or, she stays on to continue the research. Another thing she does believe in is the worthiness of the Others' cause. We probably shouldn't try to read into things with her.

 

Something else.... If the Others can cure cancer wily-nily, then why did Ben need Jack to do the surgery? Well, we know why; Ben's cancer immunity isn't working anymore and he's scared about that. Why the need to be so secretive about it, tho? Note that they went to an entirely different island when they could have stayed on the main one; only a select group of the Others were there. Does he need to hide this from the rest of the group, and why? Did many of the Others group see him sick? Call me out if I'm wrong.

[ricojes]

See, I'm not seeing all that. If her ulterior motive was to join in with the Lostaways, she prol'y wouldn't have bogarted Kate when she opened the door to deliver food and then again in the jungle, and she wouldn't have given away that she had the key to the cuffs. Kate suspects her, Sayid suspects her. No matter what Jack says and no matter what Juliet does. They both know that the Others will give a little and then play you like a fool/use you in their experiments. How many times has Jack been totally, totally wrong about the Others and what he thinks they'll do, and Sayid has been totally, totally right? I think trusting Juliet is Jack's last mistake as the Leader.

I agree, I am not expecting Juliette to help the Lostaways. I believe she is still concerned about her sister and what might happen if she did turn against "the others". Ben led her to a location where someone was obviously monitoring Juliette's sister, that would freak me out for sure. The only way I see her switching sides is if she believes that with the communication center blown up, there is no way to contact the outside world. Then there would be no repercussion to switching allegiances.

[UConn James]

I'm in the camp that juliet has either switched sides, or is going to string ben along to get what she wants. I dont think she has it in her to betray jack. Some of the other lostaways, perhaps, but not jack. (part of this could be coming from the fact i think shes gorgeous and dont want her to screw over jack and the lostaways). I think shes simply had enough of ben's "lies" and his preventing her from going to see her sister.

 

The island definitely has connections with cancer and birth, as mentioned above. As an aside that may be a bit crazy, i wonder if its possible that the "others" are trying to build a cancer-free society (hence the reason ben was shocked he had a tumor). They have their list of "good" people. Perhaps "good" means that these select few are "good" genetically, as opposed to moral character. The others have the means to gather genetic profiles, and can screen for any potential "genetic defects" that could lead to cancer in the future. It would also play a role in their obsession with kids.

 

Some of my last post had a response to the first paragraph....

 

Perhaps there is a link b/w the inability to get cancer and the inability to survive pregnancy. Something intrinsic to the island. Maybe magnetics, maybe something else. Ironic that the price of life/health is the inability to continue life/give birth. For each ying there is a yang, for each black there is a white. Hmm?

[EZC-Boston]

I think we should assume Juliet is going to switch sides if for no other reason than at the end of the episode they wanted us to think she was teaming up with Ben. If I've learned anything from TV is just to expect the opposite of what I'm supposed to believe. I'm not going to pretend to know her means or her motive but I think it is safe to saw, Ben is not the driving her actions.

[Lurker]

...inability to get cancer and the inability to survive pregnancy. Something intrinsic to the island. Maybe magnetics, maybe something else.

 

Cancer and giving birth are linked in a way...they both involve cell division and growth of a tumor or zygote. Perhaps the island attacks both processes, with deadly side affects for pregnant women.

[Scraps]

Did Rousseau give birth on the island? If she did, what changed since then that is causing deaths to "preggers"? If not, it wouldn't make sense if she had a young child with her along with her colleagues. Anyone know?

 

I believe Rousseau and Claire were pregnant before they came to the Island. If that is true, then perhaps the immune system attacking the fetus only happens to people who got pregnant on the island. In that case, what the Others did with Claire was probably unnecessary. It would also lend cred to the theory that Sun, who is also pregnant, is not carrying Jin's child.

[The Jokeman]

Cancer and giving birth are linked in a way...they both involve cell division and growth of a tumor or zygote. Perhaps the island attacks both processes, with deadly side affects for pregnant women.

I think you're onto something with as perhaps the Island does not want those on the island to reproduce for some reason. As let's not forget also that both Shannon and Ana Lucia were killed shortly after having sex with Sayid and Sawyer respectively. Yet the question has to be why/when did this start this practice. We've covered that Rousseau likely gave birth to Alex on the island but of course Juliette survived after her little liaison let's not forget that Ben himself was born on the island as well and how that impacts things has yet to be determined.

[CosmicBills]

See, I'm not seeing all that. If her ulterior motive was to join in with the Lostaways, she prol'y wouldn't have bogarted Kate when she opened the door to deliver food and then again in the jungle, and she wouldn't have given away that she had the key to the cuffs. Kate suspects her, Sayid suspects her. No matter what Jack says and no matter what Juliet does. They both know that the Others will give a little and then play you like a fool/use you in their experiments. How many times has Jack been totally, totally wrong about the Others and what he thinks they'll do, and Sayid has been totally, totally right? I think trusting Juliet is Jack's last mistake as the Leader.

 

Something else.... If the Others can cure cancer wily-nily, then why did Ben need Jack to do the surgery? Well, we know why; Ben's cancer immunity isn't working anymore and he's scared about that. Why the need to be so secretive about it, tho? Note that they went to an entirely different island when they could have stayed on the main one; only a select group of the Others were there. Does he need to hide this from the rest of the group, and why? Did many of the Others group see him sick? Call me out if I'm wrong.

Okay, I'm awake now so a couple (long) thoughts on the episode (and your post) ...

 

1. The cancer: Healing -- emotional or physical (which is where Sloth gets his theory on the show)-- has always been a big part of this show -- Locke (broken back and broken leg), Rose (cancer), Jin (infertility ... maybe), Sayid (leg) etc. etc. So it wasn't all that surprising to learn the Others either have, or believe they have, a cure for cancer. But, also, it's entirely possible that they don't have a cure and it's all a ruse by Ben & Jacob (more on him later). With Juliette being cut off from her sister for 6 months, it's possible that the medical charts Ben showed her were false and the cancer never came back. It's also possible that Jacob did exactly what Ben said he would do. It's too early to tell. However, Ben's cancer/tumor did raise some flags.

 

It's important to note that it was never said that Ben had cancer. In fact, in response to Ben's "You just told me I had cancer", Juilette said, "No, I said you had a tumor". It's very posisble that it was benign. We can't be sure. There are a couple 'out there theories' you could fly at this time (Juilette got him sick, Jacob got him sick, the Other-Others got him sick) or that his whole cure for cancer speech was a lie. Ben isn't above it.

 

I'm not certain that he hid the sickness from the rest of the Others. While it's true they went to the other island for the procedure, there were plenty of people there -- plus he went back to recover in the village, and in plain sight of everyone, Jack (not on the list) was tending to him. So even if it was a secret at the beginning, it wasn't kept that way for long. Additionally, Juliette had been on the island for over 6 months before Ben told her they could "cure" cancer. So it wasn't common knowledge amungst the recruits. Perhaps it's something only a select few know ... meaning, the rest of the Others might not find it alarming that Ben got sick -- if he indeed truly had cancer.

 

When Locke and Ben had their face to face, Ben talked a lot about his people over throwing him. "That would be the end of me", which makes you wonder how tenious his grip on power really is. Sickness is a sign of weakness, it could be exploited. Perhaps that was the plan all along. Perhaps he was "sick" as a part of a larger plan by Jacob to either test Ben or his people.

 

At the end of the day, the cancer issues can't be resolved until we know more about ...

 

2. Jacob: It's been hinted at since Ben was first captured by the Lostaways in Season 2. Ben spoke of the leader being a great man. Back then, we assumed he meant Alvar Hanso (head of Dharma). Then, once it was revealed who Ben truly was, some assumed he was just pulling a Chad Johnson and speaking about himself in the third person. This season it was made clear by Mr. Happy (Bluebeard) that Ben is not the "leader".

 

When Sawyer and Kate broke Alex's boyfriend out of "prison", he was being brainwashed and one of the clips said something (can't remember it exactly) like: "God loves you as he loved Jacob". At the time, it looked to be a biblical reference -- but last night Ben said, "Jacob is going to take care of it personally". This instantly got Juilette's attention. She was aware of who Jacob was, and her response signified that he was someone with great power -- someone she didn't doubt could cure cancer. Makes you wonder who he is and what his story is. If he's truly that powerful, he's going to be a guy we're going to want to meet.

 

3. Babies: There are a couple interesting nuggets about this. First, it's been a running theory since the second season that the Others are infertal, hence the taking of the babies/kids. From Roussou's kid, to the Tailies, to Claire's baby. A big theory of mine from this season revolved around Kate and Sawyer's hookup. The Others kept them in cages like animals and, I argue, wanted them to literally mate. They wanted to get Kate pregnant. She might very well be, too early to tell.

 

Last night's flashback gave us some insight. This truly was a problem for the Others, but not always. If Ben is to believed, he was born on this island. Additionally, Roussou gave birth on the island, as did Claire. So this "problem" has not always existed and perhaps is gone. Claire's condition last night was made to further this "fear" with Sun as well as win Juilette some trust.

 

Babies have long been a key component to the mystery of the island. However, I'm not sure last night's episode really put anything into focus about that. Instead, I think it made the water a bit more cloudy. The inconsistencies (Ben/Roussou's births) are too glaring to be simple oversight on the part of the writers. So, something else is going on other than what Ben told Juilette. That's my hunch.

 

4. Juliette: I'm not sure who's side she's on right now. The reveal that it's all part of Ben's plan was a nice twist, but not unexpected by a lot of people here. Her skills at manipulation have always been on display, so it's really hard to see what side she's playing on. Last night they designed her flashbacks to get us to believe that she was going to go against Ben only to come back with the end "twist" and punch us in the face. I'm not sure it worked simply because the audience doesn't really trust her enough even to believe her own backstory. But maybe that's just me.

 

So I can't say which side she is on. Strong cases can be made for both. However, it was interesting that Ben said "See you in one week". It's been 2 or 3 days since then, meaning that the time is drawing near. What is it that Ben hopes she can accomplish by being there exactly? You could argue that anything she could witness, the Others could as well just by being the sneaky bastards that they are. They don't really need a plant in the camp anymore. They have the lists, they know who's there. There has to be an end game (from Ben's perspective, whether or not Juliette is going to follow it is not important right now) but what is it? Was the gas mask given to her to use when the Others left the village or perhaps it's meant to protect her in a week when time is up?

 

5. The Crash/Flame Station: I've been one of the ones who has believed (since Season 1) that the Others had been "watching" the Lostaways even before they boarded Oceanic Flight 815. The random intersecting of lives is all too coincidental to be unplanned by someone. This theory was simultaneously bolstered AND damaged in the Flame Station last night.

 

The fact that Ben could call someone to "watch" Juilette's sister (without her knowing) was alarming and supported the theory. Who knows how long they have been watching her and Juilette (the death of her husband suggests they have been watching a long time). Ben told the man watching to "hurry back" -- that was an interesting beat. Certainly the man did not go from the Island to Juilette's sister's house in one day (after Juilette called Ben a liar) just to prove Ben's point. He had been there before hand. But for how long? Why is he coming back now? Perhaps it was all one big mind game played by Ben ... or perhaps they were watching them all along.

 

The theory took a hit when they discussed the crash itself. Ben asked for a "list of all the passengers". You could argue that means it was just a random colleciton of people and the lists, background material were all gathered after the crash and the Others really hadn't been watching the Lostaways for a long period of time. Or, you could argue just the opposite. Perhaps when Ben asked for a passenger list, he was asking Michal (sp) to get it from Jacob.

 

Perhaps this all powerful Jacob, the man who can cure cancer and seems to run this whole outfit, had planned this out. Perhaps not even Ben or the Others are aware of his entire plan. And, when a boat, plane or baloon crashes on the island, it's all due to Jacob's "plan" and they must get the information from him. This makes the most sense to me based on what we've seen in the show. The Others simply know too much about the lives of the Lostaways to have gathered it all from public records. Either they have the best, and most efficient Private Investigators in the world, or they already had extensive files on these people before they boarded that flight.

 

If you can buy that, the question then brings us back to Jacob. And what his plan really is. The fact that Ben might not even be aware of it is scary (from an audience perspective) because Jacob isn't on the island. So how can our heroes (and by extension us) find out the answers??? I think they gave us the answer last season: Penny.

 

Random note of the night: The man who recruited Juilette was named Halpert. It was the first time we got his last name. Anyone who watches the Office knows where it comes from. I thought it was a funny little shout out to The Office and JJ's directing stint on the show this season. I found it funny and believe it was intentional.

[ricojes]

3. Babies: There are a couple interesting nuggets about this. First, it's been a running theory since the second season that the Others are infertal, hence the taking of the babies/kids. From Roussou's kid, to the Tailies, to Claire's baby. A big theory of mine from this season revolved around Kate and Sawyer's hookup. The Others kept them in cages like animals and, I argue, wanted them to literally mate. They wanted to get Kate pregnant. She might very well be, too early to tell.

 

Good point. That makes a lot of sense and Kate very well may be pregnant. Which means Kate and Sawyer were going at it while Jack watched, maybe Jack's the one that will swich sides...

Was the gas mask given to her to use when the Others left the village or perhaps it's meant to protect her in a week when time is up?

 

I believe the gas mask was given to her before the gased the camp site. That way should could drag Kate into the woods and hand cuff them together.

The fact that Ben could call someone to "watch" Juilette's sister (without her knowing) was alarming and supported the theory. Who knows how long they have been watching her and Juilette (the death of her husband suggests they have been watching a long time).

 

Makes you wonder who else they are watching. Does the explosion of the communication center put a chink in their armor?

 

The theory took a hit when they discussed the crash itself. Ben asked for a "list of all the passengers". You could argue that means it was just a random colleciton of people and the lists, background material were all gathered after the crash and the Others really hadn't been watching the Lostaways for a long period of time. Or, you could argue just the opposite. Perhaps when Ben asked for a passenger list, he was asking Michal (sp) to get it from Jacob.

 

When they flashed back to the crash, it looked like Ben sent 2 of their own to scope out the scene (ethan & the dude sleeping with Juliette). Although we have never seen that guy until yesterday. Lots of questions and 5 shows to answer them (well at least some of them). Next week looks interesting, wonder what's going to happen with Locke and his father?

[The Jokeman]

When they flashed back to the crash, it looked like Ben sent 2 of their own to scope out the scene (ethan & the dude sleeping with Juliette). Although we have never seen that guy until yesterday. Lots of questions and 5 shows to answer them (well at least some of them). Next week looks interesting, wonder what's going to happen with Locke and his father?

The guy sleeping with Juliette was Goodwin, the guy that originally fooled the Tallies but was eventually killed by Ana-Lucia.

[duey]

Excellent posts about last nights show. While I don't have it in me to go off like tgreg99, I do have these thoughts:

 

I think Julia intends to stay with the Lostaways. I agree that she is playing both sides against each other right now, but in the end, I think she wants Ben dead. I think the fact that emphasis was placed on her tying the knot on her shelter tight was meant to infer permenance...i.e. she intends to use that shelter longer then just a few more days.

 

The fact that Ben was born on the island does not mean he was concieved there. He could be like Aaron, having come there in utero. If women who get pregnant on the island die, then we better watch out for Kate. I think that Sun is probably carry that other guys baby, so she's OK. I like the kidnapping angle as the only way they can bring up new others.

 

Let's review some facts/assumptions regarding the hurt/healed/killed:

 

Locke (good person?) = healed

Rose (good person) = healed

Charlie (good person) = almost died by hanging, lived

Sayid (bad person?) = shot and healed

Shannon (bad person) = shot and killed

Boone (good person?) = dead (sacrifice to the island?)

Hurley (good person) = has dodged MANY a bullet and thrives

Sawyer (bad person?) = shot and healed

Desmond (good person) = blown out of the hatch and lives

Mr. Eko (bad person) = killed by the monster

Ana (bad person) = shot and killed

Libby (bad person?) = shot and killed

Paulo (bad person) = dead (come on...it's been a few days under the sand by now)

Nikki (bad person) = dead (see above)

Numerous peripheral Lostaways (assume good people) = dead

Numerous Others (bad people) = dead

 

Think of how many Others have died since the crash...lots. If they were so good, as they seem to be looking for in the Lostaways, wouldn't the healing powers of the island come to their aid?

 

What's going on on the island in terms of healing is what Ben is researching. I think he's made the assumption that because his people have remained healthy, they are the good ones. He looks for the good people because he knows that the island would not allow the bad ones to survive. "Good people" will either stay healthy or be healed. Now that he's apparently not cancer free, maybe that's a sign from the island that it's opinion of him is changing.

 

And what's been going on here has had to have been going on for a long long time (don't forget the Blackrock). I think people have been coming to the island way before Ben was born there.

 

I think I've made myself more confused then over!

[ricojes]

The guy sleeping with Juliette was Goodwin, the guy that originally fooled the Tallies but was eventually killed by Ana-Lucia.

Oh right, forgot about that. thanks....

[RayFinkle]

I would think Sun is going to start playing a more prominent role soon seeing as how she is pregnant...

[Lurker]

Although we have never seen that guy until yesterday.

Ana Lucia killed him last year...she suspected he was an Other and stuck him with a spear as he chased her.

 

It's interesting that Ethan and Goodwin appear to have been doctors. The loss of their medical team explains why they needed Jack.

[EZC-Boston]

Anybody seen Locke's dad recently?

 

That's been driving me nuts. Was that real? How did they get him? Did they have him for a while? Did the box really give it to them?

[UConn James]

Okay, I'm awake now so a couple (long) thoughts on the episode (and your post) ...

 

1. The cancer: Healing -- emotional or physical (which is where Sloth gets his theory on the show)-- has always been a big part of this show -- Locke (broken back and broken leg), Rose (cancer), Jin (infertility ... maybe), Sayid (leg) etc. etc. So it wasn't all that surprising to learn the Others either have, or believe they have, a cure for cancer. But, also, it's entirely possible that they don't have a cure and it's all a ruse by Ben & Jacob (more on him later). With Juliette being cut off from her sister for 6 months, it's possible that the medical charts Ben showed her were false and the cancer never came back. It's also possible that Jacob did exactly what Ben said he would do. It's too early to tell. However, Ben's cancer/tumor did raise some flags.

 

It's important to note that it was never said that Ben had cancer. In fact, in response to Ben's "You just told me I had cancer", Juilette said, "No, I said you had a tumor". It's very posisble that it was benign. We can't be sure. There are a couple 'out there theories' you could fly at this time (Juilette got him sick, Jacob got him sick, the Other-Others got him sick) or that his whole cure for cancer speech was a lie. Ben isn't above it.

 

I'm not certain that he hid the sickness from the rest of the Others. While it's true they went to the other island for the procedure, there were plenty of people there -- plus he went back to recover in the village, and in plain sight of everyone, Jack (not on the list) was tending to him. So even if it was a secret at the beginning, it wasn't kept that way for long. Additionally, Juliette had been on the island for over 6 months before Ben told her they could "cure" cancer. So it wasn't common knowledge amungst the recruits. Perhaps it's something only a select few know ... meaning, the rest of the Others might not find it alarming that Ben got sick -- if he indeed truly had cancer.

 

When Locke and Ben had their face to face, Ben talked a lot about his people over throwing him. "That would be the end of me", which makes you wonder how tenious his grip on power really is. Sickness is a sign of weakness, it could be exploited. Perhaps that was the plan all along. Perhaps he was "sick" as a part of a larger plan by Jacob to either test Ben or his people.

 

At the end of the day, the cancer issues can't be resolved until we know more about ...

 

2. Jacob: It's been hinted at since Ben was first captured by the Lostaways in Season 2. Ben spoke of the leader being a great man. Back then, we assumed he meant Alvar Hanso (head of Dharma). Then, once it was revealed who Ben truly was, some assumed he was just pulling a Chad Johnson and speaking about himself in the third person. This season it was made clear by Mr. Happy (Bluebeard) that Ben is not the "leader".

 

When Sawyer and Kate broke Alex's boyfriend out of "prison", he was being brainwashed and one of the clips said something (can't remember it exactly) like: "God loves you as he loved Jacob". At the time, it looked to be a biblical reference -- but last night Ben said, "Jacob is going to take care of it personally". This instantly got Juilette's attention. She was aware of who Jacob was, and her response signified that he was someone with great power -- someone she didn't doubt could cure cancer. Makes you wonder who he is and what his story is. If he's truly that powerful, he's going to be a guy we're going to want to meet.

 

3. Babies: There are a couple interesting nuggets about this. First, it's been a running theory since the second season that the Others are infertal, hence the taking of the babies/kids. From Roussou's kid, to the Tailies, to Claire's baby. A big theory of mine from this season revolved around Kate and Sawyer's hookup. The Others kept them in cages like animals and, I argue, wanted them to literally mate. They wanted to get Kate pregnant. She might very well be, too early to tell.

 

Last night's flashback gave us some insight. This truly was a problem for the Others, but not always. If Ben is to believed, he was born on this island. Additionally, Roussou gave birth on the island, as did Claire. So this "problem" has not always existed and perhaps is gone. Claire's condition last night was made to further this "fear" with Sun as well as win Juilette some trust.

 

Babies have long been a key component to the mystery of the island. However, I'm not sure last night's episode really put anything into focus about that. Instead, I think it made the water a bit more cloudy. The inconsistencies (Ben/Roussou's births) are too glaring to be simple oversight on the part of the writers. So, something else is going on other than what Ben told Juilette. That's my hunch.

 

4. Juliette: I'm not sure who's side she's on right now. The reveal that it's all part of Ben's plan was a nice twist, but not unexpected by a lot of people here. Her skills at manipulation have always been on display, so it's really hard to see what side she's playing on. Last night they designed her flashbacks to get us to believe that she was going to go against Ben only to come back with the end "twist" and punch us in the face. I'm not sure it worked simply because the audience doesn't really trust her enough even to believe her own backstory. But maybe that's just me.

 

So I can't say which side she is on. Strong cases can be made for both. However, it was interesting that Ben said "See you in one week". It's been 2 or 3 days since then, meaning that the time is drawing near. What is it that Ben hopes she can accomplish by being there exactly? You could argue that anything she could witness, the Others could as well just by being the sneaky bastards that they are. They don't really need a plant in the camp anymore. They have the lists, they know who's there. There has to be an end game (from Ben's perspective, whether or not Juliette is going to follow it is not important right now) but what is it? Was the gas mask given to her to use when the Others left the village or perhaps it's meant to protect her in a week when time is up?

 

5. The Crash/Flame Station: I've been one of the ones who has believed (since Season 1) that the Others had been "watching" the Lostaways even before they boarded Oceanic Flight 815. The random intersecting of lives is all too coincidental to be unplanned by someone. This theory was simultaneously bolstered AND damaged in the Flame Station last night.

 

The fact that Ben could call someone to "watch" Juilette's sister (without her knowing) was alarming and supported the theory. Who knows how long they have been watching her and Juilette (the death of her husband suggests they have been watching a long time). Ben told the man watching to "hurry back" -- that was an interesting beat. Certainly the man did not go from the Island to Juilette's sister's house in one day (after Juilette called Ben a liar) just to prove Ben's point. He had been there before hand. But for how long? Why is he coming back now? Perhaps it was all one big mind game played by Ben ... or perhaps they were watching them all along.

 

The theory took a hit when they discussed the crash itself. Ben asked for a "list of all the passengers". You could argue that means it was just a random colleciton of people and the lists, background material were all gathered after the crash and the Others really hadn't been watching the Lostaways for a long period of time. Or, you could argue just the opposite. Perhaps when Ben asked for a passenger list, he was asking Michal (sp) to get it from Jacob.

 

Perhaps this all powerful Jacob, the man who can cure cancer and seems to run this whole outfit, had planned this out. Perhaps not even Ben or the Others are aware of his entire plan. And, when a boat, plane or baloon crashes on the island, it's all due to Jacob's "plan" and they must get the information from him. This makes the most sense to me based on what we've seen in the show. The Others simply know too much about the lives of the Lostaways to have gathered it all from public records. Either they have the best, and most efficient Private Investigators in the world, or they already had extensive files on these people before they boarded that flight.

 

If you can buy that, the question then brings us back to Jacob. And what his plan really is. The fact that Ben might not even be aware of it is scary (from an audience perspective) because Jacob isn't on the island. So how can our heroes (and by extension us) find out the answers??? I think they gave us the answer last season: Penny.

 

Random note of the night: The man who recruited Juilette was named Halpert. It was the first time we got his last name. Anyone who watches the Office knows where it comes from. I thought it was a funny little shout out to The Office and JJ's directing stint on the show this season. I found it funny and believe it was intentional.

 

Lots of good observations in there. Point #3 especially, something I hadn't picked up on with the intentional pairing of Kate & Sawyer, esp. in light of the Kate-centric ep's "You can't help who you love" mashing in with her dilemma of who to choose. In part she wanted to reject who she was; to wit, she killed her real father and hates that she feels something deep for Sawyer --- but then her inability to fit/feel comfortable when she did get married to a good man, and her connection with Jack. In essence, she doesn't want to be po' white trash but she is, and try as she might to change it, she can't escape it. Which kind of ties back into Desmond's ep that if something is meant to be/fated, it will happen eventually.

 

I dig your point #5, something I was thinking myself and didn't have the time or initiative to write down. The Others seem to know so much about the Lostaways, it can't all come from public records, etc. And the stories all merge so much, it can't be coincidence that they're all there. When the plane crashed and Ben said to get a list, it's quite possible that it would be a list of who was where --- the plane crashed in two sections. I do not doubt that the Others do have that connection to do things in the outside world, and Ben's "Hurry back" was curious. Ben is a man of his word; I don't question that. But it doesn't stop him from making promises and then having other people break them i.e. promising to get Jack and Juliet off the island with the sub, then playing his game with Locke to get the sub blown up. Ben's hands are clean from breaking his promise.

 

The writers have put in several homages to The Office. I've only seen a couple eps of the British Ricky-Gervais version, which... isn't my brand of humor. And I don't watch the American version.

 

If women who get pregnant on the island die, then we better watch out for Kate. I think that Sun is probably carry that other guys baby, so she's OK.

 

Duey, the bolded part, I believe, is one of the BIG things of the series. If Kate is preggers, it might fit into Abrams/Lindelof original plan that they wanted Jack to die in the pilot and Kate to be the hero. As of now, she is kind of a co-hero who volunteers to solve so many problems. Kate could be a hero that they first invisioned if her child is the first (questionable) to be both conceived and born on the island.

 

I also wouldn't say Charlie is a "good person" or that Shannon was a "bad person." They are both really in the middle. Tho we don't know what distinctions the Others draw on --- does drug use, attempted theft, etc. make Charlie a bad person? Does the fact that other people (step-mother) being total a--holes that made you into what you were make Shannon bad?

[a player to be named later]

Is it just me or did it seem a little weird that Juliette wasn't moved off the sub when she orginally got to the island. She was all tied up (because of the end of the trip being bumpy (Dylan)).

 

I'm having doubts that the sub was actually their mode of transport to the island.