RuntheDamnBall Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 That's why I said, "Pat Williams FOR MINNESOTA". He was a veteran free agent pick-up for the Vikings, not the Bills. What I was saying was that Pat Williams should count as a shrewd DT pickup for our scouting dept in the last 15 years, regardless of whether he was drafted or not. Better than Bannan, Anderson, etc. Hopefully McCargo can face up to the pressure and condition himself to stay injury-free and we can find out if he's really worth anything.
LevysEraII Posted February 1, 2007 Author Posted February 1, 2007 1st and 5 from the 45 at the Senior Bowl. North's got the ball and Willis is in there defending. 28 seconds into this film clip and 46 yards down the field Willis is the guy who finally makes the tackle on a bee-oo-tee-ful reverse. Then on Tony Hunt's first TD Willis gets pancaked onto his ass by Josh Beekman at 1:30 into the tape. Okoye on the other hand got a nice sack at 1:40 of the same clip, but we can't use him at MLB or more importantly at CB. I can't see why anyone would want him on The Bills when we have such a glaring need at CB and TE. Great! More sarcasm.
R. Rich Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 Those scouting reports, for the most part, are inaccurate. They make everyone sound good. How many times have you heard, "this is the next Brett Favre" or "this guy is the next Bruce Smith". How often are they right? The truth is this kid (Okoye), is just that. A kid. He hasn't fully developed yet. He could be something special down the line, but I think the Bills are close to playoff caliber NOW. You're mistaken. Those scouting reports were dead on when they referred to Robert Gallery as the next great lineman.
tennesseeboy Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 For the record: I'm not relying on a scouting report. I was touting this guy when he wasn't even being considered as a first round pick I'm not relying on his date of birth. He's demonstrated maturity as a player, as a leader and by getting his college degree in three years. I'm not relying on his weight the week of the Senior Bowl. He's played just as well heavier and did a nice job in the senior bowl at 287. He'll do a nice job for us at 305 or 310. What I am relying on is his ability to play the game of football. By the time he plays for us he'll be 20 years old, will have three years experience playing Division 1A Big East football and holding his own in the Senior Bowl. This isn't drafting a kid who has played HIGH SCHOOL basketball into the NBA.
In space no one can hear Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 He is actually up in the top 10 now in Kipers ratings so he well may not even be around at #12 (Kiper is not a drop dead certain rating of player skills, but if anyone with a higher pick thinks like he does he may be gone). He apparently really impressed folks at the Senior Bowl. On the other hand, Willis who is a favorite of many on TSW is not even mentioned in Kipers top 25 or getting a high ranking in some other pundit boards. To my mind that actually makes it more possible (though he likely still is a poor fit for our scheme as this rookie likely will command a start at MLB if we get him with any first day choice) that Willis might be a good choice for the Bills if we do not have to devote a 1st to get him. I'd love to have him as a player but not as an MLB starter as it will simply be painful as he goes through the learning curve necessary for him. In fact if Fletcher were to resign picking him makes a lot more sense to me football wise, though likely we could someone else who can start immediately with an early second round pick. Why do you constantly post about the learning curve for MLB??? Other posters have refuted your assertions many,many times and I'll just use one name Lofi Tatupu.(who was drafted much lower than Willis will be). Also, it really hasn't been determined yet if Crowell will be moved to the middle- negating this whole argument. My guess is Willis might not have the pass coverage skills or pure speed that cover two's look for at the linebacker position anyways.
LevysEraII Posted February 1, 2007 Author Posted February 1, 2007 For the record: I'm not relying on a scouting report. I was touting this guy when he wasn't even being considered as a first round pick I'm not relying on his date of birth. He's demonstrated maturity as a player, as a leader and by getting his college degree in three years. I'm not relying on his weight the week of the Senior Bowl. He's played just as well heavier and did a nice job in the senior bowl at 287. He'll do a nice job for us at 305 or 310. What I am relying on is his ability to play the game of football. By the time he plays for us he'll be 20 years old, will have three years experience playing Division 1A Big East football and holding his own in the Senior Bowl. This isn't drafting a kid who has played HIGH SCHOOL basketball into the NBA. I guess the NBA thing is a bad analogy, but never the less, we don't have many 19 year olds in the NFL to compare Okoye to.
Fewell733 Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 Why do you constantly post about the learning curve for MLB???Other posters have refuted your assertions many,many times and I'll just use one name Lofi Tatupu.(who was drafted much lower than Willis will be). Also, it really hasn't been determined yet if Crowell will be moved to the middle- negating this whole argument. My guess is Willis might not have the pass coverage skills or pure speed that cover two's look for at the linebacker position anyways. He looks plenty fast to me from the Senior Bowl highlights.
John from Riverside Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 Everyone knows that the DT doesn't demand an astronomical amount of money in free agency. A guy like Pat Williams only costs about $16 mill over a 4 year period. The 12th overall pick will probably cost the same amount, if not more. When you consider that player is an unproven rookie and the Bills were amongst the bottom of the league at stopping the run it makes sense to draft a player at another position and acquire the best available DT through free agency. We already know that Buffalo's weakest leak on the whole team is DT and subsequently run-defense. We can't afford to make a mistake on a potentially "hit or miss" type aquisition such as a rookie DT would be. Not to pick on Okoye, but he would be the worst guy the Bills could use their 1st round pick on. He's only 19 years old. No way does he step right in and becomes the answer to our "Run D" woes. Besides, don't we already have one of those guys on our roster in Big John McCargo? Our run defense needs to be shored-up with a can't miss, bonafide gangster at DT. With our 1st round pick the Bills should bring in the best available WR, MLB, CB or even TE. Those positions are in need of an upgrade but even if the Bills field the same group of guys that manned those positions in '06 it wouldn't disastrous. Notice that I didn't list a offensive lineman as a possible 1st round pick. Although I wouldn't be totally against it, I feel the same way about the offensive line as I do the defensive line. Those spots are in need of an immediate upgrade. Memo to ol' Ralphie Boy. If you truly want to make the playoffs. DON'T BE FRUGAL ON OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE LINEMAN!!!!!!! Levy, I apologize if I missed it....but you say no DT in the first.....exactly what is your plan to FIX our horrid run defense?
John from Riverside Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 Those scouting reports, for the most part, are inaccurate. They make everyone sound good. How many times have you heard, "this is the next Brett Favre" or "this guy is the next Bruce Smith". How often are they right? The truth is this kid (Okoye), is just that. A kid. He hasn't fully developed yet. He could be something special down the line, but I think the Bills are close to playoff caliber NOW. He looked pretty darn good in the senior bowl.....with double teams on every play. Much better then Ngata did
Fewell733 Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 the logic is really missing in this thread. You want better D-lineman, but not through the draft because we draft bad lineman. Then you cite Bannan, Anderson, and Larsen - none of who were highly rated coming out of college (with Anderson the most touted gotten in the 3rd round) The way to acquire talent in this league is the draft and undrafted free agents. Relying on the FA market is a mistake. Plus the guys you want us to get are all big fat slobs who are over the hill and don't fit our scheme (besides Pat Williams I would say)
tennesseeboy Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 I guess the NBA thing is a bad analogy, but never the less, we don't have many 19 year olds in the NFL to compare Okoye to. Compare him to other defensive linemen eligible for the draft...he wins Compare him to other players who migh conceivably be eligible at twelve...he wins or ties Compare him to positions of need to stop our biggest problem- run defense...he wins-and he is no slouch in pass rushing either.
John from Riverside Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 Once upon a time Erik Flowers was "definately the best lineman at the senior bowl on either team". We all know how that story turned out. I just prefer that the Bills sign a lineman via free agency. DT's, in particular, don't normally turn out to be busts as free agents. Ted Washington and Sam Adams for Buffalo, Pat Williams for Minnesota and Keith Traylor come to mind as a few examples of DT's that came in and improved the run defense of those teams. When I think of the draft, names like Justin Bannan, Tim Anderson and Leif Larsen come to mind as busts that Buffalo brought in. BTW, have the Bills picked a DT in the draft that was worth a damn in the last 15 years? Ahhhh....but wasn't Flowers a biult up LB tring to play DE? This is apples and oranges.....Okoye has actually weighed OVER 300 pounds and dropped weight I dont know....I see Warren Sapp all over him
In space no one can hear Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 Laying the sarcasm pretty thick, are we? I never said anybody is guaranteed to be a flop. I just want a sure thing to man the defensive tackle position. I've had enough of the Andersons, Larsens and Bannans of the world. Come on....using Anderson, Larsen and Bannan in the same sentence as Okoye???? I really don't see the connection- you might want to check some game tape out. Okoye is a stud!!! Not to mention he is the ultimate or dream fit as DT in a cover two scheme.
In space no one can hear Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 He looks plenty fast to me from the Senior Bowl highlights. You might want to watch the practices and full game tape. Wilis will not be our first round pick.
LevysEraII Posted February 1, 2007 Author Posted February 1, 2007 the logic is really missing in this thread. You want better D-lineman, but not through the draft because we draft bad lineman. Then you cite Bannan, Anderson, and Larsen - none of who were highly rated coming out of college (with Anderson the most touted gotten in the 3rd round) The way to acquire talent in this league is the draft and undrafted free agents. Relying on the FA market is a mistake. Plus the guys you want us to get are all big fat slobs who are over the hill and don't fit our scheme (besides Pat Williams I would say) It's incredible how you can say the "logic is really missing in this thread" and then go right ahead and say "the guys you want us to get are all big fat slobs who are over the hill and don't fit our scheme". That's interesting, because I never mentioned anyone specifically.
BuffaloRebound Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 Either Beekman is an absolute stud or Willis is horrible at the point of attack, because Beekman made him look like a 170 lb CB on that block that sprung the touchdown.
fitnbills Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 Either Beekman is an absolute stud or Willis is horrible at the point of attack, because Beekman made him look like a 170 lb CB on that block that sprung the touchdown. That's fine that he was pancaked. Every defensive player has been at some point in there career. The fact that he was named the defensive player of the game for his team with the team lead in tackles with 11 should prove that he was active the entire day. When I watched the game I was surprised at how active he was. Regardless to everyones reason for not liking him as a potential pick for us.. he was making play after play in the game. I like Willis he's about the same size is TKO 6'2 240 but he's running a 40 in 4.4 time. He makes plays he's a standup guy with high character, that's been through a lot and made it out. Kind areminds me of the posts last year about Ngata and everything he went through and perservered through it all. I liked him as a pick for us last year and still wish we had picked him. In my opinion, with Ngata on our team our run defense would have been much better. Aside from all of that he's done a really good job at Baltimore and there record and defensive rankins supports that. So long story short either we draft Branch the big DT if he falls to us or go after Willis to replace Fletcher considering he doesn't want to resign with us after the poor treatment from the front office. If both of them are gone then I say we go after an OT or OG. Our secondary was drafted last year so we need to dead all that picking a CB talk.
Orton's Arm Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 the logic is really missing in this thread. You want better D-lineman, but not through the draft because we draft bad lineman. Then you cite Bannan, Anderson, and Larsen - none of who were highly rated coming out of college (with Anderson the most touted gotten in the 3rd round) The way to acquire talent in this league is the draft and undrafted free agents. Relying on the FA market is a mistake. Plus the guys you want us to get are all big fat slobs who are over the hill and don't fit our scheme (besides Pat Williams I would say) I also disagree with the logic being used here. Just because a 3rd round pick and a couple 2nd day picks aren't on their way to the Hall of Fame, doesn't mean the Bills should expect a bust if they take a DT in the 1st. Lots of DTs taken in the 1st go on to have successful careers--Warren Sapp, Ted Washington, etc. And last year, the Bills wanted to sign a DT in free agency. We had a clear need, and plenty of cap space, but the best we could do was Larry Triplett. While Triplett hasn't been a disaster, he isn't really what you want as a long-term answer at starter. If the Bills have the chance to sign a better FA DT this year, they should obviously go ahead and do it. But in the likely event the Bills can't sign a first rate DT, I would have absolutely no objection to drafting Okoye in the first.
Dan Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 I think what's being lost on some posters is the concept of building a team. That means you have many players in different stages of development. If all of your players are at the same stage of their careers and development, i.e. you say we're close now so I want to bring in all FAs that can impact the team next year. Where does that leave you in 2-3 years? That, I think, is the strong suit of Okoye. He's young and just as Triplett or whoever is fading in 2 years, Okoye will be hitting his prime. You have to look at the big picture and select players in the draft and FA that fill the talent gaps next year as well as years from now. To select someone like Okoye would tell me that Marv et al. are comfortable with Triplet and McCargo next year (unless they bring in FAs as well), but more importantly it also tells me they're thinking of the future as well. That's why teams like the Pats are always in the playoffs and near a Superbowl, because they draft guys that will develop into players just in time to get rid of an aging or higher priced vet. They bring in just enough FAs to keep the team moving forward each year. You have to look at the long term and short term if you want to be successful and build something.
Fewell733 Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 It's incredible how you can say the "logic is really missing in this thread" and then go right ahead and say "the guys you want us to get are all big fat slobs who are over the hill and don't fit our scheme". That's interesting, because I never mentioned anyone specifically. others, if not you, mentioned Traylor, Pat Williams, Sam Adams ect. as the type of player
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