NFLNetwork's SBXXV replay confirms Reed no HOFer

[Buftex]

3 wins in 4 years by the Pats is arguably a more noterworthy achievement, I doubt 4 straight even as a loser will be repeated).

 

 

I think that you could make an argument that getting there 4 years in a row, despite losing them all, is an incredible mental achievment, and a true testament to the resolve of those players and coaches...

[Peter]

The Bills should get rid of that bum Andre Reed.

[cale]

Our offense Kelly in particular seemed to come up so small in those big games...I really think that first loss against the Giants got into their heads a bit. I blame Kelly for most of it. Dumb ass turnovers and not knowing when to stick with the run...

 

I really thought that second Dallas game we had a chance, but then TT just seemed to quit after the fumble in the second half.

[SF Bills Fan]

I can't watch that game. I've never watched it since I actually watched it live that day. I've only seen Norwood miss the kick about 1 million times in replay. Can't stand to even think of it. Can't wait to see that play get shown 1 thousand times this week. I remember Andre dropping a third and short pass over the middle that would have gone big had he got it. That was after the Giants had to punt after the safety. That play was terrible. I can remember it so clearly. I hate the period in between the Conference Championships and the Super Bowl. Every year those horrible memories get dragged out.

If Reed gets in, I will be fine with it. But if he caught that one ball, everything could be so different.

[SF Bills Fan]

Our offense Kelly in particular seemed to come up so small in those big games...I really think that first loss against the Giants got into their heads a bit. I blame Kelly for most of it. Dumb ass turnovers and not knowing when to stick with the run...

 

I really thought that second Dallas game we had a chance, but then TT just seemed to quit after the fumble in the second half.

 

Thurman would have had 500 yards that day. I do blame Kelly there. He wanted to be the hero.

[Pete]

Our offense Kelly in particular seemed to come up so small in those big games...I really think that first loss against the Giants got into their heads a bit. I blame Kelly for most of it. Dumb ass turnovers and not knowing when to stick with the run...

 

I really thought that second Dallas game we had a chance, but then TT just seemed to quit after the fumble in the second half.

agreed 100%

[BuffOrange]

Reed deserves some blame for that game but I agree with everything bufftex has said here. This board has a way of only remembering the most recent game they've seen on tv (Zomg Willis can't block, the 2004 defense sucked, etc.)

 

I kinda wish they'd replay the Redskins SB so you guys would realize how overrated Beebe is after watching him drop 2 TD's when it was still a game.

[The_Philster]

Shut up with the "stopping by" nonsense. First off dude, my whole point is that Andre Reed was a marginal candidate to begin with and these games did nothing to put him over the top and support his cause.

 

Secondly, if you knew anything at all about sports you'd wake up and realize like most knowledgeable sports fans that greatness is often defined by one or two games. Lives, careers (and yes inclusion into the Hall of Fame) get changed by one or two games. And yes careers DO get condensed to a performance in a big game (especially the biggest). Buffalo fans know all this by now.

THat's the first I've heard of it. I'm betting Hall of Famers like Marv Levy and Jim Kelly never heard it either

 

Name me one WR in the current HOF that has more catches than Reed.

bingo...Andre will get it...and deservedly so...it just might not be this year. The HOF is notoriously slow admitting WRs. It's likely been decades since the last WR got in on his first ballot...and the only one I see getting in like that in the future is Jerry Rice

[Nanker]

Also, in Reed's defense that was a pretty good Giants defense he faced, which was predicated on stooping the passing attack with as many as 8 guys dropping back into coverage. To me it was pretty amazing that he managed to get open as often as he did.

 

Tuna had Belichick devise a defense to make Buffalo beat them on the ground.

They wanted to take away the pass and nearly did by playing nickle defense throughout the game and often using dime.

If Lofton had broken that first play all the way it would have been a different game (obviously). That was the one time that game that the Jints got beat deep.

 

But the Jints stayed with their scheme to play nickle - which is also one reason why Thurman had such a monster game.

After seeing The Bills' awesome dismantleing of Oakland the previous week Parcells was more concerned by Kelly's passing than he was of TT's running.

They decided to take Andre out of that game by keying on him and hitting him very hard and very often on his routes over the middle.

 

It worked because uncharacteristically Andre was hearing footsteps by the end of the first quarter.

Andre made his living ripping up secondaries by going late over the middle and he took a ton of shots in his career.

However, Tuna and Belichick's scheme was designed specifically to take away Reed because they felt he was The Bills' key to success.

And they were right. On that day, they were right.

 

Remember also that The Bills had gone to NY a few weeks earlier and beat the Jints in their house - which didn't happen a lot in those days. Phil Simms broke his foot in that game and Jeff Hostettler stepped in the rest of the season at QB. Marv and just about everybody else thought they were going to play the 49ers in SB25. I think the entire Bills org underestimated The Jints that day. They swept the NFC East (yes, NY, PHI, DALLAS, WASH) and did an All-Time-Wipeout of Oakland in the AFC Championship Game. Those were heady times for The Bills. I've often thought if that wasn't the first year they took out the off week before the SB that they would have had a chance to settle down to business a bit more.

 

A few years after that game Tuna owned a thoroughbred with Mike Francesa that he named "Nickle Defense" in tribute to that SB win.

Francesa talked about it (the horse AND the game) enough and still does occasionally on his talk show on 660 WFAN. He is a close personal friend of Parcells.

[Brandon]

I guess they shouldn't allow Thurman Thomas into the Hall of Fame, either. Look at how bad he was in the next three Super Bowls. He had a total of 60 rushing yards on 37 carries in those three games.

 

Even a Super Bowl (or two or three) does not define a player's career. Thomas and Reed were both among the best that ever played their positions and both deserve to be in the HOF.

[Lori]

If Art Monk (much more prolific statswise and has a ring) isn't getting in the Hall how can you possibly say Andre Reed deserves in? He self destructed in those first two super bowls, the game's greatest stage, and he was borderline for the Hall otherwise. When Andre Reed was in front of the game's biggest spotlight four times he came up so small. How can you say he deserves to be in there before Art Monk? I don't see it.

First, let's see just exactly how much more prolific statswise Monk was, why don't we?

 

Reed: led Bills in receiving nine times in the ten seasons from 1988-1997. Seven Pro Bowls.

951 catches, 13198 yards, 13.9 ypc, 87 touchdowns.

19 playoff games, 85 catches-1230 yards, 9 touchdowns. Five 100-yard games, of which the Bills won 3... including the most memorable, the Comeback.

 

Monk: led Redskins in receiving four times in his fourteen seasons in Washington. Three Pro Bowls.

940 catches, 12721 yards, 13.5 ypc, 68 touchdowns.

15 playoff games, 69 catches-1062 yards, 7 touchdowns. Four 100-yard games; SB XXVI was the only one of those the Redskins won. Even then, Monk wasn't Washington's leading receiver in that game, Gary Clark was.

 

951 > 940, 13198 > 12721, 13.9 > 13.5, and 87 > 68.

 

Now let's talk about his stats:

Yes, let's do.

#5 all-time in receptions: as already noted, NO Hall of Fame WR has more catches than Reed.

#8 all-time in receiving yards: former teammate James Lofton is the only current HOF enshrinee with more.

#10 all-time in touchdown catches: only Steve Largent, Don Hutson, and Don Maynard top him in this category among HOF WRs.

13 seasons with 50+ catches. Jerry Rice is the only other WR that can make that claim, until Marvin Harrison gets there two years from now. Nobody else has more than 11. Ever.

 

Was Andre Reed a very very good player during his day? Yes. Is he a Hall of Famer? I say no, he's not. It took Lynn Swann forever to get in. He was definitely more worthy.

 

Furthermore, I looked at Reed's stats from that SBXXV year and he wasn't even a 1,000 yard receiver (look it up). I'm a Bills fan but after watching that replay televised last night - I have to say he does NOT get my benefit of the doubt if I'm a writer watching that game. Sorry, he just doesn't.

Lynn Swann? Are you serious? 336 receptions-5462 yards-51 TD Lynn Swann? Care to guess how many 1,000 yard seasons he had? Try ZERO (look it up). He wasn't even the best receiver on his own TEAM; Stallworth was. Swann got in first because everybody remembered the Super Bowl X highlight film.

 

Do yourself a favor and watch the second half of the Comeback game instead. No Kelly. No Thurman. Oilers knew Reed was getting the ball, and he still torched them for three second-half touchdowns. If you truly think one game defines a career, I'd be more than happy to submit that performance against ANY in league history.

[Nanker]

Now Lori, why'd you have to simply destroy the guy with facts?

 

Lord, it's hard enough to keep a guy out of the HOF by focusing on one game - one game which the opposing D was completely and specifically designed against him (sorry, but comparing Houston's D to NYG's is no contest). But why did you have to bring in his entire career's statistics? It's just going to be that much harder now to keep Andre out of the HOF if the voters have to take into consideration his entire body of work. It would be so much simpler for the voters and haters to say Andre sucked that day, so he's just not HOF material.

 

On another note, if Thurman doesn't get in this year I might cut my Don Shula (HOF97) autographed rubber mini foosball in half to protest. By the way, Thurman was a much better running back than Shula was a defensive back and they let Shula into the Hall.

[Lurker]

...If you truly think one game defines a career, I'd be more than happy to submit that performance against ANY in league history.

Great post, Lori. Your contributions are one of the best reasons to keep visiting TSW.

[Fezmid]

Do yourself a favor and watch the second half of the Comeback game instead. No Kelly. No Thurman. Oilers knew Reed was getting the ball, and he still torched them for three second-half touchdowns. If you truly think one game defines a career, I'd be more than happy to submit that performance against ANY in league history.

Exactly.

 

If Reed doesn't deserve it, no receiver aside from Rice does.

 

Buffalo 3rd 10:39 26 yd pass Reed from Reich (Christie PAT) 4/59 24-35

Buffalo 3rd 13:00 18 yd pass Reed from Reich (Christie PAT) 4/23 31-35

Buffalo 4th 11:52 17 yd pass Reed from Reich (Christie PAT) 7/74 38-35

[KOKBILLS]

First, let's see just exactly how much more prolific statswise Monk was, why don't we?

 

Reed: led Bills in receiving nine times in the ten seasons from 1988-1997. Seven Pro Bowls.

951 catches, 13198 yards, 13.9 ypc, 87 touchdowns.

19 playoff games, 85 catches-1230 yards, 9 touchdowns. Five 100-yard games, of which the Bills won 3... including the most memorable, the Comeback.

 

Monk: led Redskins in receiving four times in his fourteen seasons in Washington. Three Pro Bowls.

940 catches, 12721 yards, 13.5 ypc, 68 touchdowns.

15 playoff games, 69 catches-1062 yards, 7 touchdowns. Four 100-yard games; SB XXVI was the only one of those the Redskins won. Even then, Monk wasn't Washington's leading receiver in that game, Gary Clark was.

 

951 > 940, 13198 > 12721, 13.9 > 13.5, and 87 > 68.

 

Yes, let's do.

#5 all-time in receptions: as already noted, NO Hall of Fame WR has more catches than Reed.

#8 all-time in receiving yards: former teammate James Lofton is the only current HOF enshrinee with more.

#10 all-time in touchdown catches: only Steve Largent, Don Hutson, and Don Maynard top him in this category among HOF WRs.

13 seasons with 50+ catches. Jerry Rice is the only other WR that can make that claim, until Marvin Harrison gets there two years from now. Nobody else has more than 11. Ever.

Lynn Swann? Are you serious? 336 receptions-5462 yards-51 TD Lynn Swann? Care to guess how many 1,000 yard seasons he had? Try ZERO (look it up). He wasn't even the best receiver on his own TEAM; Stallworth was. Swann got in first because everybody remembered the Super Bowl X highlight film.

 

Do yourself a favor and watch the second half of the Comeback game instead. No Kelly. No Thurman. Oilers knew Reed was getting the ball, and he still torched them for three second-half touchdowns. If you truly think one game defines a career, I'd be more than happy to submit that performance against ANY in league history.

 

Well there You go again Lori....Bringing factual information and pure logic to a thread with an OP like this one...

 

It's like bringing a Rocket Launcher to a Slap fight...

[34-78-83]

Well there You go again Lori....Bringing factual information and pure logic to a thread with an OP like this one...

 

It's like bringing a Rocket Launcher to a Slap fight...

 

Logic that was already brought up in this very thread. It's just that she puts the whole package together nicely.

[Ctown]

Logic that was already brought up in this very thread. It's just that she puts the whole package together nicely.

 

I think Lori did a great job stating the facts and the reasons why reed SHOULD be in the HOF. To bad she does'nt have a vote. I think Swann was a mistake to get in.

 

Performance in big games should mean nothing when it comes to HOF consideration. Otherwise guys like Doug Williams and Timmy Smith would be in.

[Pyrite Gal]

I think Lori did a great job stating the facts and the reasons why reed SHOULD be in the HOF. To bad she does'nt have a vote. I think Swann was a mistake to get in.

 

Performance in big games should mean nothing when it comes to HOF consideration. Otherwise guys like Doug Williams and Timmy Smith would be in.

 

 

I am not sure about this. If by this you mean that putting him into the HOF violates the criteria that the NFL has set for membership in the Hall. I doubt this as it means that the committee of football junkies like a Larry Felser who used to be on the committee decided to or unknowingly violated this criteria by putting on Swann I simply doubt this.

 

The reality is that it is a HO Fame and not Hall of Statistical Greatness, Its a popularity contest, but in this entertainment game popularity counts big. If they judged Swannie to deserve entry for some reason such as his embodying the Steelers wins even if his stats did not add up to the results he achieved in crunch time, those are the rules and one probably should complain (to little real world end really) that the criteria should be or emphasize other things rather than being a HO Fame.

 

To some extent the criteria as I know them which specifically says non football behavior like murdering your wife are not to be taken into account, thus an idiot like OJ Simpson is still in the HOF despite him really only deserving to be in the netherworld burning forever.

[Tcali]

First, let's see just exactly how much more prolific statswise Monk was, why don't we?

 

Reed: led Bills in receiving nine times in the ten seasons from 1988-1997. Seven Pro Bowls.

951 catches, 13198 yards, 13.9 ypc, 87 touchdowns.

19 playoff games, 85 catches-1230 yards, 9 touchdowns. Five 100-yard games, of which the Bills won 3... including the most memorable, the Comeback.

 

Monk: led Redskins in receiving four times in his fourteen seasons in Washington. Three Pro Bowls.

940 catches, 12721 yards, 13.5 ypc, 68 touchdowns.

15 playoff games, 69 catches-1062 yards, 7 touchdowns. Four 100-yard games; SB XXVI was the only one of those the Redskins won. Even then, Monk wasn't Washington's leading receiver in that game, Gary Clark was.

 

951 > 940, 13198 > 12721, 13.9 > 13.5, and 87 > 68.

 

Yes, let's do.

#5 all-time in receptions: as already noted, NO Hall of Fame WR has more catches than Reed.

#8 all-time in receiving yards: former teammate James Lofton is the only current HOF enshrinee with more.

#10 all-time in touchdown catches: only Steve Largent, Don Hutson, and Don Maynard top him in this category among HOF WRs.

13 seasons with 50+ catches. Jerry Rice is the only other WR that can make that claim, until Marvin Harrison gets there two years from now. Nobody else has more than 11. Ever.

Lynn Swann? Are you serious? 336 receptions-5462 yards-51 TD Lynn Swann? Care to guess how many 1,000 yard seasons he had? Try ZERO (look it up). He wasn't even the best receiver on his own TEAM; Stallworth was. Swann got in first because everybody remembered the Super Bowl X highlight film.

 

Do yourself a favor and watch the second half of the Comeback game instead. No Kelly. No Thurman. Oilers knew Reed was getting the ball, and he still torched them for three second-half touchdowns. If you truly think one game defines a career, I'd be more than happy to submit that performance against ANY in league history.

Hey sorry:

Anyone who saw Lynn Swann play knows that he was a better receiver than Reed. According to you Emmit Smith and Franco are better RBs than OJ was.

[BuffOrange]

Performance in big games should mean nothing when it comes to HOF consideration. Otherwise guys like Doug Williams and Timmy Smith would be in.

 

Right. Everything's that black & white.