Peyton Manning is better than any West Coast QB

[LabattBlue]

AKC likes quoting selective statistics doesnt he?

[AKC]

How about you just answer the questions Brainiac.

 

 

I'll be happy to as soon as we establish that you have some, make that any, comprehension abilities- (remember, not every classroom is appropriate for every student).

 

Do you now recognize from the irrefutable facts laid out in this string that Tom Brady is one of the worst downfield passers in the NFL today?

[Prognastic]

I'll be happy to as soon as we establish that you have some, make that any, comprehension abilities-

 

Do you recognize from the irrefutable facts laid out in the string that Tom Brady is one of the worst downfield passers in the NFL today?

 

 

Again with your selective statistics. Did Brady bang your daughter or your mother or something and then run off right before he became a FUTURE HALL OF FAMER? Why do you have such an axe to grind with him? He's a winning QB who isnt defined by conventional methods. He's not the most gifted in any area but he's a winner and I'll take that any day over the Manning's, the Vick's, the Palmer's or the J.P Losmans of the world.

[AKC]

Again with your selective statistics. Did Brady bang your daughter or your mother or something and then run off right before he became a FUTURE HALL OF FAMER? Why do you have such an axe to grind with him? He's a winning QB who isnt defined by conventional methods. He's not the most gifted in any area but he's a winner and I'll take that any day over the Manning's, the Vick's, the Palmer's or the J.P Losmans of the world.

 

That'd be a big fat ZERO on the pop quiz.

 

Let's give you one more chance to prove there's blood flowing between your ears:

 

If a Quarterback in the NFL was among the 10 worst at throwing the football more than 9 yards past the line of scrimmage, and the league confirmed and certified that the quarterback was among the worst in the league, would you then agree with the irrefutable facts and the official league statistics that that quarterback was a poor downfield passer- even if he was the quarterback who's Fathead is on your bedroom wall?

[Prognastic]

That'd be a big fat ZERO on the pop quiz.

 

Let's give you one more chance to prove there's blood flowing betwen your ears:

 

If a Quarterback in the NFL was among the 10 worst at throwing the football more than 9 yards past the line of scrimmage, and the league confirmed and certified that the quarterback was among the worst in the league, would you then agree with the irrefutable facts and the official league statistics that that quarerback was a poor downfield passer- even if he was the quarterback who's Fathead is on your bedroom wall?

 

Why are you being so condescending? And what exactly is your axe to grind with Brady? Thats all I want to know, I couldnt care less about your selective lies, damn lies and statistics.

[AKC]

Why are you being so condescending?

 

I'll be happy to answer that. From the very first post in this string, among the things I've proven with facts are that a quarterback skill most of the best of all time possessed is actually a huge chasm in Brady's game. I've asked you to simply acknowledge that all the facts support that Brady is awful at throwing the ball downfield.

 

For some reason you refuse to acknowledge what is inarguable. So I figure you're either a Troll or a moron, and I feel justified in being condescending to both. If you're a Troll, you apparently can't find enough people to talk about your own team and you're here instead on a Buffalo Bill's board offering absolutely nothing in the way of a contribution to football conversation (or in societal terms- you're a loser). On the other hand, if you're a moron, you have entered a conversation you can't understand and that's a waste of the bandwidth.

 

Hope that clears things up for you.

[Prognastic]

I'll be happy to answer that. From the very first post in this string, among the things I've proven with facts are that a quarterback skill most of the best of all time possessed is actually a huge chasm in Brady's game. I've asked you to simply acknowledge that all the facts support that Brady is awful at throwing the ball downfield.

 

For some reason you refuse to acknowledge what is inarguable. So I figure you're either a Troll or a moron, and I feel justified in being condescending to both. If you're a Troll, you apparently can't find enough people to talk about your own team and you're here instead on a Buffalo Bill's board offering absolutely nothing in the way of a contribution to football conversation (or in societal terms- you're a loser). On the other hand, if you're a moron, you have entered a conversation you can't understand and that's a waste of the bandwidth.

 

Hope that clears things up for you.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

I bet you're a blast at parties.

[Hollywood Donahoe]

Why are you being so condescending?

That's how he always acts.

 

And what exactly is your axe to grind with Brady?

He's good and plays for a division rival.

[Wraith]

In '04 his rating from 21-30 yards was 44, and from the 31-40 was only 55. No one bothered to cover his wideouts past 30 yards becasue of his horrendous performance downfield up to then, and as a result he got lucky on a few downfield chucks.

 

You really do have a knack for selective statistics. Brady's overall rating downfield (10+ yards) was an 81 in 2004. Not all that great, but certainly not as bad as you try to portray. But hell, I was trying to argue your side, until you started this crap.

[daquixers_is_back]

Again with your selective statistics. Did Brady bang your daughter or your mother or something and then run off right before he became a FUTURE HALL OF FAMER? Why do you have such an axe to grind with him? He's a winning QB who isnt defined by conventional methods. He's not the most gifted in any area but he's a winner and I'll take that any day over the Manning's, the Vick's, the Palmer's or the J.P Losmans of the world.

 

I know you were replying to AKC, but I figured I would throw my opinion in the mix. I really don't hate Tom Brady, although I do STRONGLY dislike him due to the fact that he plays on the Patriots. Yet, when I evaluate a player, I don't just look at what team he plays for. I look at the overall. Meaning, if Tom Brady was on the Cardinals instead, I wouldn't strongly dislike him because of the team, but I would still feel the same way of him as a player. I hope that made sense? Maybe not.

 

I see Tom Brady as a player who gets some credit he does not deserve and some people don't give Manning the credit he DOES deserve. Lets be honest ... how well does anyone think Brady would do in a long-rage full field type of offense? The type of offense Manning has mastered. Looking at his porous stats in the long passing game, I would guess he would not do as well. At the same time, we have seen Manning master the long game and also do well in the short game. A lot of people talk about Brady's 2 minute drill and how he can take a team down the field. Has anyone seen Manning in a two-minute drill? The guy is amazing and personally, I cant help but think that he is an even better 2 minute QB than Brady. In fact a buddy made a comment towards the end of the 1st half of the Pats-Colts game when Manning started to do well with only a few minutes left before halftime... he said "Jeez, the Colts coaches should just tell Manning that there is only 2 minutes to go every time he touches the ball" ... the difference is that Brady has done his 2-minute drill bit in the SB and AFC championship games and that obviously gets more exposure than Manning's regular season, game by game by game 2 minute drill that is fantastic. That is NOT a knock against Brady. I'm just saying that Manning is just as good at it, if not better.

 

A lot of people refer to the fact that the Colts struggled against the Pats in the playoffs in the first 1/2 of Manning's career. I don't think I'm one to usually complain about the refs but what Ty Law and Co. did to the Colts receivers a few years ago without any penalties called was AMAZING! The Colts receivers were being mugged downfield, and yet everyone was wondering why Manning was picked off a lot. Well duh! When your receivers are being pushed/shoved 20 yards downfield, of course they are not going to be able to run their routes! Again. NOT a knock against Brady. A knock against the Refs/Pats defense.

 

Next people bring up the subject of SB rings, and that Brady is the superior QB because he has the SB rings. Personally I NEVER understood, even BEFORE Manning/Brady debate came around. I don't understand how ONE player is better, because his TEAM won a game and another players TEAM didn't. Last time I checked, Football is a TEAM game. One player could be an all-star, but if the whole team is not up to a good enough level than that ONE all-star player is not going to get a ring. Example: Is Trent Dilfer better than Dan Marino because Dilfer has a ring and Marino does not?

 

Put it this way. I *personally* believe if Manning and Brady were on completely different teams since 2000, Manning would have the 3 SB rings, Brady would have 0, and Manning would STILL be in next weeks Super Bowl. Thats my opinion.

Its seems now-a-days whenever you bring up Brady or Manning in a good way, it must mean that you are discrediting the other player. That is NOT the way it is for me. I just see it the way I posted above.

[Double D]

I know you were replying to AKC, but I figured I would throw my opinion in the mix. I really don't hate Tom Brady, although I do STRONGLY dislike him due to the fact that he plays on the Patriots. Yet, when I evaluate a player, I don't just look at what team he plays for. I look at the overall. Meaning, if Tom Brady was on the Cardinals instead, I wouldn't strongly dislike him because of the team, but I would still feel the same way of him as a player. I hope that made sense? Maybe not.

 

I see Tom Brady as a player who gets some credit he does not deserve and some people don't give Manning the credit he DOES deserve. Lets be honest ... how well does anyone think Brady would do in a long-rage full field type of offense? The type of offense Manning has mastered. Looking at his porous stats in the long passing game, I would guess he would not do as well. At the same time, we have seen Manning master the long game and also do well in the short game. A lot of people talk about Brady's 2 minute drill and how he can take a team down the field. Has anyone seen Manning in a two-minute drill? The guy is amazing and personally, I cant help but think that he is an even better 2 minute QB than Brady. In fact a buddy made a comment towards the end of the 1st half of the Pats-Colts game when Manning started to do well with only a few minutes left before halftime... he said "Jeez, the Colts coaches should just tell Manning that there is only 2 minutes to go every time he touches the ball" ... the difference is that Brady has done his 2-minute drill bit in the SB and AFC championship games and that obviously gets more exposure than Manning's regular season, game by game by game 2 minute drill that is fantastic. That is NOT a knock against Brady. I'm just saying that Manning is just as good at it, if not better.

 

A lot of people refer to the fact that the Colts struggled against the Pats in the playoffs in the first 1/2 of Manning's career. I don't think I'm one to usually complain about the refs but what Ty Law and Co. did to the Colts receivers a few years ago without any penalties called was AMAZING! The Colts receivers were being mugged downfield, and yet everyone was wondering why Manning was picked off a lot. Well duh! When your receivers are being pushed/shoved 20 yards downfield, of course they are not going to be able to run their routes! Again. NOT a knock against Brady. A knock against the Refs/Pats defense.

 

Next people bring up the subject of SB rings, and that Brady is the superior QB because he has the SB rings. Personally I NEVER understood, even BEFORE Manning/Brady debate came around. I don't understand how ONE player is better, because his TEAM won a game and another players TEAM didn't. Last time I checked, Football is a TEAM game. One player could be an all-star, but if the whole team is not up to a good enough level than that ONE all-star player is not going to get a ring. Example: Is Trent Dilfer better than Dan Marino because Dilfer has a ring and Marino does not?

 

Put it this way. I *personally* believe if Manning and Brady were on completely different teams since 2000, Manning would have the 3 SB rings, Brady would have 0, and Manning would STILL be in next weeks Super Bowl. Thats my opinion.

Its seems now-a-days whenever you bring up Brady or Manning in a good way, it must mean that you are discrediting the other player. That is NOT the way it is for me. I just see it the way I posted above.

 

Peyton Manning proved that you and the topic starter have a far better grasp of the quarterback position than others here. I'd like to ask you if you think that JP Losman has what it takes to be successful in the offensive scheme being used in Buffalo right now?

[daquixers_is_back]

Peyton Manning proved that you and the topic starter have a far better grasp of the quarterback position than others here. I'd like to ask you if you think that JP Losman has what it takes to be successful in the offensive scheme being used in Buffalo right now?

 

To be completely honest, I have no idea. Even after one full season, I have no clue what type of offensive identitiy this coaching staff is trying to put together. We run 30+ times one game and then 10 times the next game.

[joe_ferguson]

This is silly. You've focused on one stat-- downfield throwing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Memo to AKC! Memo to AKC! Brady has no receivers! Brady has no receivers! Ughhh.

[Dawgg]

Moreso than having no receivers, he has no consistency on offense.

 

The receiving corps in New England has been a revolving door since Brady came into the league. Contrast that to Manning, who has had the same offensive coordinator and worked with the same receivers for quite a few years running. Nevertheless, both QBs are good at what they do -- to short change either is just pure lunacy.

 

This is silly. You've focused on one stat-- downfield throwing.

Memo to AKC! Memo to AKC! Brady has no receivers! Brady has no receivers! Ughhh.

[RLflutie7]

While statistics are sometimes misleading, considered in full context they can be enlightening in demonstrating the dynamics playing out “between the lines” of any football game. A game of football can be watched many ways, but sometimes even the experienced watcher can miss critical elements within the game that are crucial to a more complete understanding. It is here, in the nuances of the game, that statistics can fill in enough pieces of the picture to help answer some of the most common questions about the game of football as played in the NFL such as “Who’s the best Quarterback?”.

 

In order to establish this, it’s important to understand the stark differences between offensive schemes. Even casual fans understand that there’s a big difference between playing QB in an Option Offense and a traditional NFL Downfield Passing Offense. What most fans overlook is that the differences between a System Offense like the West Coast and a traditional Downfield Passing Offense differ to probably a greater degree than even the Option Offense does to Traditional Downfield Passing Offenses. I’ll demonstrate that here.

 

The West Coast Offense was designed specifically to- at the earliest moment- get the ball out of the QB’s hands and into the hands of a playmaker. At its roots the West Coast System seeks to limit the QB’s role to that of a “point guard” in distributing the ball to the “shooters” on the team. By contrast, the traditonal Downfield Passing Quarterback is required to be both “point guard” and “shooter”.

 

Like the college Option Offense, a staple of the West Coast is having much of the ball exchange taking place behind or within a few yards of the LOS. In fact, much like the Option Quarterback, the West Coast System rewards QBs who have better skills in that short range of play from the backfield out to about 10 yards from the Line Of Scrimmage.

 

The traditional Downfield Passing Quarterback has no such luxury- he is asked to perform almost the opposite job from the West Coast or Option type Quarterback- he is tasked with effectively throwing the ball downfield beyond 10 yards, with the consequences of his personal failure being the failure of his offense. Unlike his counterpart in a West Coast System, where the Quarterback is looking to immediately put the ball in the hands of a playmaker, the Downfield Pro Passing Quarterback is the team’s primary playmaker. This fundamental difference separates completely the requirements to play in a traditional Downfield Pro Passing Offense versus a West Coast System:

 

The West Coast QB's primary task is to distribute the ball to his offense’s playmakers.

 

The Downfield Passing Quarterback is the Primary Playmaker within his offense.

We can statistically demonstrate this difference by looking at the highest regarded QBs in the game today.

 

Peyton Manning is a traditional QB throwing the ball downfield effectively year after year. Peyton threw the lowest number of behind the Line of Scrimmage passes per game among all NFL starters in 2006. Manning has a QB rating on downfield passes of 112 and a completion rate on those downfield balls beyond 10 yards of 57%. Manning makes the throws, and makes them effectively, that are required for a traditional Downfield Passing Quarterback to lead a Downfield Offense as its primary playmaker. His effectiveness is the single most important key to the success of his offense. If he fails throwing the ball downfield with effectiveness, his offense will also fail.

 

On the other side of the offensive style spectrum we have the System QB. Looking at the top-rated System Quarterback in the game today we can study the stark difference between a traditional NFL QB like Manning and a System QB. Tom Brady once again had a terrible year throwing the ball downfield, as he has throughout his career. In fact, in 2006 of all his passes thrown over 10 yards Brady completed only 38%. Over 30 yards Brady hit on only 25% of his throws. On these balls downfield, where a good downfield passer like Drew Brees held a passer rating of 137, the system QB in New England was only able to manage a QB rating of 66. Brady this year was among the worst starters in the NFL in passing beyond 10 yards.

 

2006 Season Quarterback Stats:

 

Manning Beyond 10 Yards> Comp. % 57% Passer Rating 112

 

Brady Beyond 10 Yards> Comp. % 38%Passer Rating 66

 

Brees Beyond 10 Yards> Comp. % 58% Passer Rating 137

 

Don’t assume that these awful downfield passing numbers of Brady are exclusive to the 2006 campaign; they actually parallel his career numbers which are a QB Rating of 67 and completion percentage barely over 40% when throwing 10 yards or more downfield. Brady plays in a System that doesn’t require that he throw downfield well, and luckily for his team the System hasn’t penalized him or his offense for his bottom of the league performances throwing downfield. Surely the biggest advantage to not having to be effective downfield is that Brady doesn’t have to put himself into the highest pressure situations that Downfield Passing QB’s face throughout a game. The fact is the West Coast QB has far less pressure and far greater opportunities to simply dump the ball on the sidelines, a staple of Brady’s game. Tom Brady’s numbers prove that you can complete less than 40% of your throws downfield in the West Coast and it will have virtually no apparent negative impact on the effectiveness of the System Offense.

 

On the other hand, if Manning or Brees complete only 38% of their downfield passes, the Saints and Colts miss the playoffs this year- and badly. Unlike their counterpart in New England, Manning and Brees are of course the primary playmakers in their offenses. Manning and Brees simply don’t have the luxury of throwing every second or third long ball to the sidelines to avoid pressure or sacks. The design of their Downfield Passing offenses places the largest burden of offensive success squarely on the Quarterback’s shoulders. In the West Coast, the percentage of burden on the Quarterback for offensive success is dramatically reduced.

 

It’s clear from the irrefutable record of Brady’s horrible record career-long downfield passing during a span that his team’s offense has played effectively: the West Coast QB has a mere fraction of the pressure and responsibility burden that Downfield Passing Offenses places upon theirs. It’s mandatory to factor this in when considering any title for “Best in the League”. We would be insulting Quarterbacks who have made their NFL living the “hard way”- standing in pockets facing the rush and making deep throws with their team’s success completely on the line- if we simply ignore all the clear proof that shows that System Quarterbacks don’t measure up to the Downfield Passing Quarterbacks when it comes to the tasks they perform, their level of responsibility within their offense or the pressure they face as a result. Manning may not be the best QB in the NFL today, but he’s still far, far better than any of the System Quarterbacks who have ever played in the NFL up to this point in history.

 

 

You make a very valid arguement and it's well thought out. I think there's a clear difference between the two (Manning and Brady). Manning seems to have many more "downfield TD passes".

 

The system does indeed distort how QB stats look and how performance is viewed.

 

To me, the West Coast offense has hurt the NFL in several ways.

 

1. A smaller more athletic guy is more inclinded to succeed in a West Coast offense (Jeff Garcia) and these guys may not be able to throw the downfield pass as well.

 

2. The long ball (like Terry Bradshaw type passes) has left the building. Which makes for a more boring game. A boring field-position type game. I think bringing the long pass back (Jim Plunkett comes to mind) is needed. What better way to change bad field position than the long pass.

 

3. A lot of bigger guys are simply not suited to run a West coast offense (Mark Rypien, Kerry Collins are a few that come to my mind) and coaches are drafting these big guys and trying to force a West Coast system on them (Jim Drunkenmiller 49ers).

 

4. Many people ignore how hard it is to find throwing lanes in the West Coast offense. It's not just short guys, but tall guys as well. All that traffic in such a small area. I think that's one of the reasons why Tom Brady is so good, he finds throwing lanes so well in the short passing game.

 

The disadvantages to the vertical passing game are that so few QBs are truely good at it and that's a big problem and I think that's why coaches like that WC system so much.

 

Most long ball throwers that were good are legends. Terry Bradshaw, Joe Nameth, John Elway, Dan Marino, Jim Plunkett and Troy Aikman are certainly the most celebrated QBs in NFL history.

 

While I think the Tom Brady's, Joe Montana's and Steve Youngs are viewed differently and it's why I like the big arm QBs (Ryan Leaf, Jeff George) so much.

 

My favorite player now is Jake Delhomme, and man, can he hit the home run ball. It's interesting that I always liked Flutie so much because so many here thought he had a rag arm. I happen to believe Flutie had a great arm.

 

It's also interesting to note that Peyton had so many dump offs to the running backs in the Super Bowl.