I still don't like the Whitner and McCargo picks

[Dan]

I haven't read this entire thread, but in the few posts I've read its gone from ridiculous to hilarious to atrocious. So much so wrong, I wouldn't know where to start.

 

Whitner was a good pick, get over it. He started every game this year, and probably will for years to come. Furthermore in those starts he was a solid player that didn't get routinely burned. What more do you want in a footall player? Draft position is irrelevant. Peters wasn't even drafted. Does that make him less of a lineman than a first round pick? McCargo: the jury is still very much still out due to injury.

[Git'er Done]

My first post (I can't take it any longer).

First, BOTH these guys were JUNIORS when they came out. THAT"S VERY IMPORTANT. REMEMBER THAT FOR THIS COMING DRAFT! The first 4 picks were JUNIORS! Do you think that was a coincidence? What would Whitner have done in college this year? Probably tore it up! McCargo is still young, he would likely have tore it up in college as well (surely someone will say "How do you know?" Well, I trust that pro scouts around the league know pretty well when someone is ready to make the jump). McCargo is probably younger than a few of the top rated guys coming out in this years draft. The age means ALOT. When everyone was ripping into Losman, comparing him to Kelly it infuriated me. Jim Kelly was 26 when he came to the Bills, and he spent some time in the "Minors" (USFL), he never really had a true rookie NFL season. Anyway, even if Whitner ends up only above average on the field, we don't know what "intangibles" he bring to the team. Work ethic, study habits, competitiveness, team spirit, professionalism, even social attitudes, so much goes into the evaluation of a player. Whitner has done real well, lay off! McCargo is still up in the air, he was injured. They obviously saw something in him to trade up, let's wait until he's 24 or so before we write the guy off. And another thing. I couldn't care less about a players sex life as long as he keeps it legal. When Marv talked about character, he said he didn't mean they had to be choir boys, what he meant was that they had to have good team character (played hard, good teammates,were competitive, always tried to improve, etc.), so if Marv doesn't get rid of Willis, that doesn't mean that he isn't following through with his commitment to "character", I think Marv is more worried about the players' "professional" relationship (which isn't to say that Willis has a good or bad relationship with the team, I (and you) don't really know. Just give Levy and Jauron a few years to get the kind of players they want before you judge them so harshly.

Oh yeah. The first pick is gonna be a junior, so take anyone that isn't a junior off the list (I know some d*** is gonna say "well what about that 19 year old senior"...I don't have time to write out the few exceptions, I hope you get the idea).

[Dibs]

My first post (I can't take it any longer).

First, BOTH these guys were JUNIORS when they came out. THAT"S VERY IMPORTANT. REMEMBER THAT FOR THIS COMING DRAFT! The first 4 picks were JUNIORS! Do you think that was a coincidence? What would Whitner have done in college this year? Probably tore it up! McCargo is still young, he would likely have tore it up in college as well (surely someone will say "How do you know?" Well, I trust that pro scouts around the league know pretty well when someone is ready to make the jump. McCargo is probably younger than a few of the top rated guys coming out in this years draft. The age means ALOT. When everyone was ripping into Losman, comparing him to Kelly it infuriated me. Jim Kelly was 26 when he came to the Bills, and he spent some time in the "Minors" (USFL), he never really had a true rookie season. Anyway, even if Whitner ends up only above average on the field, we don't know what "intagibles" he bring to the team. Work ethic, study habits, competitiveness, team spirit, professionalism, even social attitudes, so much goes into the evaluation of a player. Whitner has done real well, lay off! McCargo is still up in the air, he was injured. They obviously saw something in him to trade up, lets wait until he's 24 or so before we write the guy off. And another thing. I couldn't care less about a players sex life as long as he keeps it leagal. When MArv talked about character, he said he didn't mean they had to be choir boys, what he meant was that they had good team character (played hard, good teammates,were competitive, always tried to improve, etc.), so if MArv doesn't get rid of Willis, that doesn't mean that he is'nt following through with his commitment to "character", I think Marv is more worried about the players "professional" relationship (which isn't to say that Willis has a good or bad relationship with the team, I (and you) don't really know. Just let the give Levy and Juaron a few years to get the kind of players they want before you judge them so harshly.

Oh yeah. The first pick is gonna be a junior, so take anyone that isn't a junior off the list (I know some d*** is gonna say "well what about that 19 year old senior"...Idon't have time to write out the few exception, I hope you get the idea).

Hi....& welcome.

Some good points.

If I may be so bold though......break up your writing into paragraphs, it's a lot easier to read in smaller chunks.

I liked what you wrote though.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

My first post (I can't take it any longer).

First, BOTH these guys were JUNIORS when they came out. THAT"S VERY IMPORTANT. REMEMBER THAT FOR THIS COMING DRAFT! The first 4 picks were JUNIORS! Do you think that was a coincidence? What would Whitner have done in college this year? Probably tore it up! McCargo is still young, he would likely have tore it up in college as well (surely someone will say "How do you know?" Well, I trust that pro scouts around the league know pretty well when someone is ready to make the jump. McCargo is probably younger than a few of the top rated guys coming out in this years draft. The age means ALOT. When everyone was ripping into Losman, comparing him to Kelly it infuriated me. Jim Kelly was 26 when he came to the Bills, and he spent some time in the "Minors" (USFL), he never really had a true rookie season. Anyway, even if Whitner ends up only above average on the field, we don't know what "intagibles" he bring to the team. Work ethic, study habits, competitiveness, team spirit, professionalism, even social attitudes, so much goes into the evaluation of a player. Whitner has done real well, lay off! McCargo is still up in the air, he was injured. They obviously saw something in him to trade up, lets wait until he's 24 or so before we write the guy off. And another thing. I couldn't care less about a players sex life as long as he keeps it leagal. When MArv talked about character, he said he didn't mean they had to be choir boys, what he meant was that they had good team character (played hard, good teammates,were competitive, always tried to improve, etc.), so if MArv doesn't get rid of Willis, that doesn't mean that he is'nt following through with his commitment to "character", I think Marv is more worried about the players "professional" relationship (which isn't to say that Willis has a good or bad relationship with the team, I (and you) don't really know. Just let the give Levy and Juaron a few years to get the kind of players they want before you judge them so harshly.

Oh yeah. The first pick is gonna be a junior, so take anyone that isn't a junior off the list (I know some d*** is gonna say "well what about that 19 year old senior"...Idon't have time to write out the few exception, I hope you get the idea).

 

i had forgotten that he was a junior. i'm seeing a movie for you, too, though. "anger management". you can't let it stay all bottled up, brother, it'll tear you apart. get a dog to beat...a sail boat to sail...drink hard liquor. better yet, watch some movies. stay away from george clooney stuff though, he's a total hollywood liberal....and that will just make you angrierer.

[Dibs]

Hey, maybe Whitner will elevate his play to an Ed Reed level. I really hope you're right to imply there's a good chance of this. But Whitner almost has to be the next Ed Reed--or pretty close--to justify that kind of selection. It's very, very hard for a SS to be a game changer, which is why I'm pessimistic about Whitner being a good value at #8 overall. I just want the Bills to have a lot more game changers and difference makers than we have right now. I'm not trying to be a pain, honest.

OK....I definitely lied about being finished.

 

OK so now we get back to the argument of SS at #8. I see a reasonably argument to this but......all this was covered last off-season.

 

I'll copy out the relevant parts to a post I made last off-season regarding this concept responding to another poster.

 

As I understand it, the argument goes...Safeties are traditionally rarely taken in the top ten of the draft because the position is intrinsically of a lower impact on the game than virtually every other position. Therefore if you end up with an all-pro S he is less valuable to the team than an all-pro QB or OT etc.

Let me put forward that the S position has drastically changed in recent times.

In the PFW preview 2006 magazine there is a good article(by Trent Modglin) on the changes in the league.

It starts(& this should give you the basics of it)....

"This, clearly, is not your grandfather's NFL. Nor, for that matter, does it all that closely resemble your father's NFL, either. Certainly not with the way safeties are acting all crazy, running from place to place before the snap, blitzing the quarterback, covering wide receivers, intercepting passes and dragging big, bruising running backs to the turf like a leopard on a deer. Things have changed...."

Does this concept(assuming it's truth) elevate the importance of Safety into the same level as most other positions?

Let's have a look at the first 3 rounds of this years draft.

I'm basing this on ESPNs big board....they are one of the biggest 'value' picks proponents so...

#7 Huff(I don't use him in the argument since he is projected at CB)

#8 Whittner(BUF).....projected at #20.....UP 12

#16 Allen(MIA).........projected at #27.....UP 11

#40 Bullocks(DET)....projected at #53.....UP 13

#42 Manning(CHI)....projected at #69.....UP 27

#43 Harper(NO).......projected at #108....UP 65

#54 Pollard(KC).......projected at #95......UP 41

#83 A.Smith(PIT).....projected at #86......UP 3

#97 E.Smith(NYJ).....projected at NOT EVEN RATED

FYI Whittner, Allen & Bullocks were the top 3 projected safeties.

As you can see, the safety position was clearly viewed as more desirable by the NFL clubs than by ESPN analysis.

If the S position has been traditionally downgraded on draft day due to it's lack of importance & now it's importance is higher, it makes sense that they are taken higher than in previous years.

 

Whittner was considered to be one of the most ready to play draftees in the draft. Sure, you might be able to find someone better in later rounds(as you can with any position..e.g. Brady) but obviously if it were that easy, there would not be any busts at all.

50% of all 1st rounders are busts(including top 10)...give or take. From the looks of it, the odds on Whittner seem to be much better than 50% on whether he will make it as a pro.

Given 50% failure in the first round & the fact that super-stars can be found in later rounds & the concept that the Safety position is more important than it was...with Whittner looking good to become minimally a good starter, I'd say I've done enough to...if not convince you that Whittner was a good pick....to allow you to give the benefit of the doubt at this time & see how he pans out without thinking Marv & Co. are stupid.

[Git'er Done]

i had forgotten that he was a junior. i'm seeing a movie for you, too, though. "anger management". you can't let it stay all bottled up, brother, it'll tear you apart. get a dog to beat...a sail boat to sail...drink hard liquor. better yet, watch some movies. stay away from george clooney stuff though, he's a total hollywood liberal....and that will just make you angrierer.

 

 

These Bills, they mean alot to me

A pretty good rant tho...

I have so much more, especially about the draft.....I'll be back!

[Orton's Arm]

you're a good sport, as i recall from prior posts. i followed the math, and i follow your point. here's my take on it. flip the coin 1000 times, and the law of large numbers dictates a certain likelihood that it will come up X times on heads and Y times on tails. but to find out what actually happens in your 1000 coin tosses, you have to have a system to flip the coin. if you get the coin to flip end over end some random number of times from when it leaves your thumb until it hits the table, you'll get your result whether you use your left hand or your right. but--with no system for flipping the coin, you have a 100% probability of failing to get the result. i just reread this and think i made my point...you can decide.

 

using the coin flip analogy, i'll spot you that, say, ngata (or whomever) might eventually be a difference maker and dw/jm may not (at least to the level i think you're talking about). i assume you'll spot me the same. the problem i always have with the theoretical for any player is that the outcome is difficult to predict if you're not running the same systems with the same level of talent around you. in most cases---all other things being equal---things are not equal.

 

but, if marv and dj have a sound system in place to identify talent and build a disciplined team, i'll take that over any particular player. r. seymour is a good example---a difference-maker on a team where he's been out quite a bit---but other members in the system step up to take his place.

 

i respect your opinion and i had profound moments of disappointment this year myself. i closed the year out thinking we were going in the right direction, but next year is a whole new year. it was nice to see, however, romo blow the hold in dallas and miami in shambles. now, if new england gets knocked out, it's as good a situation as i feel we can be in assuming we're not in the mix for the SB.

I understand your point about the importance of a sound system for player identification, and I that such a system is instrumental in building a good football team. I don't know if you've read Patriot Reign, but according to that book, the Patriots' system for player identification was instrumental to their success.

 

But you can have such a system without necessarily getting too locked into one or two specific players. Generally it's a mistake to be too eager, to get too locked into plan A instead of considering what plan B might have to offer. Had Marv elected to trade down, he could well have still been in a position to take Whitner. But had Whitner been off the boards, would Mangold plus a second round pick have been such a tragedy?

 

If Marv's system of player identification told him that Whitner and McCargo were the only two players worth having in the first round, his system is far too narrow. A good system should give you a viable plan B and C so that you don't get burned.

 

The way I see the Whitner pick, it's like completing a 15 yard pass when you had a guy 30 or 40 yards down the field who was wide open. And yes, you're welcome to say something like, "Well in that case, a guy named Holcomb's Arm should love the Whitner pick."

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

These Bills, they mean alot to me

A pretty good rant tho...

I have so much more, especially about the draft.....I'll be back!

 

 

oh, it was a good rant. the d*** even fooled the censors. have a good night. dibs-good work. i enjoy your posts. God bless us one and all.

[Orton's Arm]

OK....I definitely lied about being finished.

 

OK so now we get back to the argument of SS at #8. I see a reasonably argument to this but......all this was covered last off-season.

 

I'll copy out the relevant parts to a post I made last off-season regarding this concept responding to another poster.

Your post about the changing role of the safety rings true. And yes, that does make me feel a little better about the Whitner pick. I'm still not thrilled with the pick mind you, and I won't be unless Whitner begins to receive serious Pro Bowl consideration. But I agree it's not the end of the world.

[Dibs]

.....The way I see the Whitner pick, it's like completing a 15 yard pass when you had a guy 30 or 40 yards down the field who was wide open. And yes, you're welcome to say something like, "Well in that case, a guy named Holcomb's Arm should love the Whitner pick."

 

I think the analogy is closer to the guy 25 yards down field is covered. Do you risk the 50-50 catch/int? I guess that would depend on the situation you are in.

 

Again.....

 

Did we have the best draft we could have?????

 

NO

 

Did we have a great draft????

 

YES

 

Did we know how we could have made the draft better....pre-draft????

 

NO

 

Did some people foresee a better way we could have drafted?????

 

By the laws of probability.....YES

 

Should we be happy that....even though it could have potentially been better.....we had a great draft????

 

Apparently NO......I still don't get it.

[Oneonta Buffalo Fan]

For what it's worth, Sportsline has Whitner rated as the 148th best DB in the NFL. Interestingly, Ko Simpson was the 63rd best DB (according to them), and Nate Clements the 18th best DB. But what's really, really frustrating is the #2 DB on that list.

 

Yeah, so Whitner was underrated. HE'S STILL A GREAT PLAYER NO MATTER WHAT SOME CRAZY SITE SAYS!

[C.Biscuit97]

Good point.....though I still think that when looking at 'the pick'.....any non bust is better than a bust(which is 50%).

I was mainly trying to counter the concept of what Matt in DC said in post #65(after my post too)....."A) I think that Whitner will be good, but not worth the #8 pick." By perspective, I meant that if half of the #8 picks are busts........how is it possible for everyone to continually expect the player to become a HOFer. Surely a 'good' player is a result well above the odds & therefore the player is a good pick.

....but I digress from your point

 

Let's compare Whitners rookie year to those guys.

Whitner....15 games, 104 tackles, 1 int, 0 sacks

Huff....16 games, 78 tackles, 0 int, 0 sacks

Allen....16 games, 20 tackles, 1 int, 0 sacks

Taylor....15 games, 76 tackles, 4 int, 1 sacks

Polamalu....16 games, 38 tackles, 0 int, 0 sacks

Williams....16 games, 55 tackles, 5 ins, 2 sacks

Reed....16, 85 tackles, 5 int, 1 sack

 

As we can see.....in perspective to his modern day peers.....he is certainly in the mix.....better than most....most tackles by far....only one int which is only bettered by 3 players.

 

but wait.....you forgot a few safeties......

 

2005: Thomas Davis(converted to OLB)....16 games, 38 tackles, 0 int, 1.5 sacks

2002: Mike Rumph....16 games, 49 tackles, 0 int, 0 sacks

 

....and I think to be fair, we should grab more 1st round safeties from further back in time. In recent times there has been a few BIG successes more than the usual I'd think.....only fair to compare in proper perspective.(A bit like in recent times high 1st round OTs have been busts.....we don't expect all high 1st round OTs to be busts based on that anomaly)

 

2001: Adam Archuleta....13 games, 56 tackles, 0 int, 2 sacks

2001: Derrick Gibson....16 games, 15 tackles, 1 int, 0 sacks

1999: Antuan Edwards....16 games, 36 tackles, 4 int, 0 sacks

1998: Tebucky Jones....16 games, 29 tackles, 0 int, 0 sacks

1998: Shaun Williams....13 games, 34 tackles, 2 int, 0 sacks

1998: Donovin Darius....14 games, 76 tackles, 0 int, 0 sacks

 

OK....that's 10 years of the first season for 1st round Safeties drafted.

 

15 in total

Whitner had the highest tackles.....equal 6th in ints & along with 9 others, 0 sacks.

OK....the top 10 picks are.....

Huff....not as good

Taylor....more ints....less tackles

Williams....more ints....less tackles

 

Again.....when looked at in perspective.......Whitner is showing himself to be a very good pick.

 

Your work inspired me my Aussie friend. Taking some of the players you listed, I decided to take things a step further beyond individual stats. I'll try and be as brief as possible in looking at some of the team rankings.

 

Ed Reed - In his rookie season in 2002, the Ravens dropped from 10-6 to 7-9 (-3). Their pass defense gave up 3,823 yards (26th in the league), gave up 16 passing tds (4th), had 25 INTs (2nd), and IMO the most improtant stat, gave up 6.67 yards per attempt (16th). http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/rav2002.htm

 

Roy Williams - Also a 2002 rookie. Cowboys followed a 5-11 season with another 5-11 season (0). Pass rankings: 3,586 yards (17), 22 tds (17), 19 Ints (8), and ypa of 6.25 (6). http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/dal2002.htm

 

Troy Polamalu - 2003, Steelers went 10-5-1 to 6-10 (-3.5). Pass rankings: 3,245 yards (12), 20 tds (17), 14 ints (22), and ypa of 6.69 (17). http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/pit2003.htm

 

Sean Taylor - 2004, 5-11 to 6-10 (+1), Pass rankings: 2,977 yards (7), 17 tds (5), 18 ints (14), and ypa of 5.78 (2). http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/was2004.htm

 

Michael Huff - 2006, 4-12 to 2-14 (-2), Pass rankings: 2,413 yards (1), 17 tds (7), 18 ints (11), and ypa of 5.89 (5). http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/rai2006.htm

 

Jason Allen (though he was mainly a dime back) - 2006, 9-7 to 6-10 (-3), Pass rankings: 3,007 yards (5), 22 tds (21), 8 ints (31), and ypa of 6.04 (10). http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/mia2006.htm

 

Donte Whitner - 2006, 5-11 to 7-9 (+2), Pass rankings: 3,019 yards (7), 18 tds (10), 13 ints (24), and ypa of 5.87 (3). http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf2006.htm

 

 

What does this prove other than I was really bored? That for the purpose he was drafted for, Whitner was part of a pass defense that ranked with any of the other elite safties' rookie years. And though I didn't look into it, I highly doubt anyone of the teams listed started one safety who was 21 and another who was 23. Well it is certainly easy to second guess the pick because of our poor run defense, the McCargo injury really stunts the complete comparison. Personally while shocked at the time, I love the progress I saw. And I believe another year in the cover 2 and the return of McCargo and another wide body (and Tim Anderson never playing again), this defense will be an elite unit. Trust in Marv.

[C.Biscuit97]

For what it's worth, Sportsline has Whitner rated as the 148th best DB in the NFL. Interestingly, Ko Simpson was the 63rd best DB (according to them), and Nate Clements the 18th best DB. But what's really, really frustrating is the #2 DB on that list.

 

 

It's a fantasy ranking of defensive players. For what it's worth, Fletcher is the #1 ranked LB (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/playerrankings/regularseason/LB) & Chris Kelsey is ranked ahead of Schobel (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/playerrankings/regularseason/DL). So I'd take it with a huge grain of salt.

[Dibs]

......Personally while shocked at the time, I love the progress I saw. And I believe another year in the cover 2 and the return of McCargo and another wide body (and Tim Anderson never playing again), this defense will be an elite unit. Trust in Marv.

Good work....the most surprising thing(for me) was to find out that OAK had the #1 pass D this season. Who'd have thought?

 

I think we'll need another young stud LB as well....what with Fletcher looking to be gone & Spikes(though in my mind expected to be back strong) still a big ?????

I don't think the loss of NC(I'm expecting him gone) will effect the D as much as most fear. As long as we get a decent/good replacement, the drop-off should not be that noticeable.....we use mainly a zone D....why pay the extra money for a CB who can blanket a WR when the ability would be used less than elsewhere.

I think you are correct.....we are close to being an elite unit. Fingers crossed...it'll happen.

[Nanker]

I'm really pissed at the Bledsoe trade.

Donnaho gave up far too much for a player who lost his starting job to injury.

I want to discuss this for the next ten years.

We got screwed on that deal and our progression toward the playoffs suffered a setback that we won't recover from for another decade.

[jimmyv.]

By drafting a safety that high being elite or not is the difference between being a bad decision or a good one. Whitner should be judged in the context of the elite safeties because he was drafted in a position before most of the elite safeties. I'm not exactly giving kudos to Marv for finding what looks to be a very good safety in the top 10 until that safety turns into an elite one. I especially won't when we could have had Ngata, and I'm not saying such in hindsight. I started the draft Haloti Ngata bandwagon about 4 months before April and half the wall was on board.

 

 

Agreed!

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

I understand your point about the importance of a sound system for player identification, and I that such a system is instrumental in building a good football team. I don't know if you've read Patriot Reign, but according to that book, the Patriots' system for player identification was instrumental to their success.

 

But you can have such a system without necessarily getting too locked into one or two specific players. Generally it's a mistake to be too eager, to get too locked into plan A instead of considering what plan B might have to offer. Had Marv elected to trade down, he could well have still been in a position to take Whitner. But had Whitner been off the boards, would Mangold plus a second round pick have been such a tragedy?

 

If Marv's system of player identification told him that Whitner and McCargo were the only two players worth having in the first round, his system is far too narrow. A good system should give you a viable plan B and C so that you don't get burned.

 

The way I see the Whitner pick, it's like completing a 15 yard pass when you had a guy 30 or 40 yards down the field who was wide open. And yes, you're welcome to say something like, "Well in that case, a guy named Holcomb's Arm should love the Whitner pick."

 

 

i would have said it, but had to get some sleep. i never had a beef with holcomb the way some others did, by the way, i will keep going back to the same thought as before---in the correct system, i think the guy has skills he brings to the table. he's more likely to thrive in a short passing game, possession-type receptions, nickle and dime a team to death. it can work, and has, and regardless of how exciting it is, i'd take a boring offensive team winning a super bowl any day. i favored letting losman take his knocks, but to be fair almost jumped out my office window by mid-season, even though we all recognized the line was not playing well. i'm greatful they turned the corner when they did, although my office is on the first floor.

 

to answer your question regarding mangold and a second rounder--no, i agree, a tradgedy it would not have been. on the other hand, there are no guarantees they saw mangold as the most pressing need #2, for reasons i'll never know. ultimately, i'm pretty much a "let coaches coach" guy (and a horrible, darkly depressed indivdual when the coaches/player deliver a poor performance on any given Sunday). i like the approach, and try not to worry about what else might have been. there are too many variables that i don't know enough about---leinhart and the wind in buffalo, how many legitimate options were available on draft day and what were the strings attached, etc etc. certainly, many of you on the board do much more draft analysis than i do, or ever would.

 

oh, and i can't read "patriot's reign" but follow the concept. i'm sick to death of them.

tim

[jimmyv.]

Hey, maybe Whitner will elevate his play to an Ed Reed level. I really hope you're right to imply there's a good chance of this. But Whitner almost has to be the next Ed Reed--or pretty close--to justify that kind of selection. It's very, very hard for a SS to be a game changer, which is why I'm pessimistic about Whitner being a good value at #8 overall. I just want the Bills to have a lot more game changers and difference makers than we have right now. I'm not trying to be a pain, honest.

 

And no, I'm not saying the pick was garbage. It wasn't, because the Bills clearly got something of value from it. But they could have gotten more.

 

Right on! Maybe Whitner improves his play, maybe not...jury is still out. For those that describe him as "great", apparently they saw things I didn't. He didn't impress me as big time hitter, very instinctive, disruptive in running game, or exceptional in coverage. The Bills head coach talks about his great speed, but great speed, while commendable for football, does not translate to being a great football player. I'm not saying he's a bust, but long term outlook is inconclusive. Other early pick safeties, like E. Reed and Sean Taylor, clearly demonstrated their star qualities from the get go.

[Alaska Darin]

Right on! Maybe Whitner improves his play, maybe not...jury is still out. For those that describe him as "great", apparently they saw things I didn't. He didn't impress me as big time hitter, very instinctive, disruptive in running game, or exceptional in coverage. The Bills head coach talks about his great speed, but great speed, while commendable for football, does not translate to being a great football player. I'm not saying he's a bust, but long term outlook is inconclusive. Other early pick safeties, like E. Reed and Sean Taylor, clearly demonstrated their star qualities from the get go.

Were they playing on teams with new head coaches, new defensive coordinators, new defensive systems, starting FOUR other rookies regularly on defense, with huge questions in their front sevens? Not to let common sense get in the middle or anything.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

Right on! Maybe Whitner improves his play, maybe not...jury is still out. For those that describe him as "great", apparently they saw things I didn't. He didn't impress me as big time hitter, very instinctive, disruptive in running game, or exceptional in coverage. The Bills head coach talks about his great speed, but great speed, while commendable for football, does not translate to being a great football player. I'm not saying he's a bust, but long term outlook is inconclusive. Other early pick safeties, like E. Reed and Sean Taylor, clearly demonstrated their star qualities from the get go.

 

 

i don't have any problem with it was a "great" pick, but would agree he has not established himself as a "great" player at this point. i do think any discussion on him being a bust on the other hand, you're revising what jauron said just a bit, here's the quote from one article:

****

BuffaloBills.com reports: '"He's talented, he's fast," said head coach Dick Jauron. "He likes to play the game and he'll hit you. Those are all things that translate well to our sport. He's still learning how to play, but one of the reasons we did like him is because he likes football. He likes to talk about football, look at it, study it and he likes to play. He's going to work out well for us because I see him improving all the time."'

****

 

on this quick quote, and assuming dj didn't mean "he'll hit you" wasn't a reference to a "oh no you di'int" biatch-slap paris hilton swipe, i'll assume he meant he hits your hard. he's got to develop the proper technique, how/when/where to hit a brotha.