Mikie2times Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 In hindsight I believe Buffalo would choose Ngata over Whitner. At the time I don't believe Ngata was Jaurons ideal fit for a DT, and Whitner was for a S. I felt he choose wrong, and still do. But Whitner is going to be a very good player.
Lurker Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 Good God Almighty...is your day really that slow???
Alaska Darin Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 Do you think he was worth a #8? Do you think it would have been OK to try to build a football team with a 1st, 2 2nds, and 2 early 3rds in a draft which was loaded with talented players? Tell us. We ALL need a good laugh. Sure Bill, just like we should spend every high pick on offensive linemen. That'll absolutely lead to the promised land. Just like the Vikings. Shoot, they should be able to line up grandmothers and invalids at their skill positions and get in the playoffs, especially in their division. Yet somehow, despite having a loaded secondary and pretty good linebackers, THEY DIDN'T EVEN FINISH SECOND in their DIVISION. The draft is a crapshoot. We got a guy who won awards and started 16 games at arguably the second most difficult defensive position and will likely be an NFL starter for the next decade. But keep bitching like a schoolgirl because we didn't draft 15 linemen, as if picking the position is going to get the job done.
Bill from NYC Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 Sure Bill, just like we should spend every high pick on offensive linemen. That'll absolutely lead to the promised land. Just like the Vikings. Shoot, they should be able to line up grandmothers and invalids at their skill positions and get in the playoffs, especially in their division. Yet somehow, despite having a loaded secondary and pretty good linebackers, THEY DIDN'T EVEN FINISH SECOND in their DIVISION. The draft is a crapshoot. We got a guy who won awards and started 16 games at arguably the second most difficult defensive position and will likely be an NFL starter for the next decade. But keep bitching like a schoolgirl because we didn't draft 15 linemen, as if picking the position is going to get the job done. C'mon Darin. You do know better than this. The Vikings virtually DID line up a grandmother at qb, whereas Brad Johnson hit the wall in a manner that Rich Gannon would be forced to admire. There were of course other problems with that team as we well recall. We both know that it isn't imperative to have all 1st round blockers. Jason Peters is a prime example of this, but the Bills got VERY lucky with this kid stepping up like that at LT as a udfa. I don't remember this ever happening, do you? I think that he is as responsible for the Bills improvement as is any 1 player, if not more and again. he was a udfa. Pennington mught be good as a 7th as well. We shall see. Now, CV is finished, Fowler is small, Preston hasn't stepped up, and Gandy flat out sucks. This is a problem that needs to be addressed. In past seasons, we have addressed it improperly with both free agents AND draft picks, and this is one big reason that we are sitting here glad that we improved to 7-9. We can continue to draft late round picks and sign free agent scrubs, but it probably won't work. How many good players can you name on the entire unit within the last 12 years? Not so many, huh? Don't you think that this coincides just a bit with the lousy w/l record? Yeah, this particular line needs to be improved and in a hurry. I hope that major resources are devoted to this. As for Whitner, I too think he will be a solid player for many years if he keeps his head on straight. Knowing that the draft IS a crapshoot as you say, I still expect more than a good safety at #8. You have always been a proponent of staying away from "need" in any draft and taking the best player available. Levy didn't even bring Whitner in for a workout, etc. Whitner himself was shocked to go at #8, remember? This makes me believe that the Bills were targeting a safety in round 1. If I am correct, this goes against your very method of drafting. Anyway, this is the past. Let's see what Levy does in his second year at the helm. We will find out soon enough.
Dibs Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 Well...to start with he made the team. He started from the first game. We got rid of a pretty good starting safety to put him on the field. He played well enough to the defensive rookie of the month for September (I believe..could be wrong on this.) and his play all season was outstanding. Other than that he was nothing special! Well summed up. I don't get half(most?) of you guys. PERSPECTIVE!!!!! It's a wonderful thing. Over half of first rounders are busts....PERIOD......including the top 10! When we can finish the season with the near certain knowledge that our top 10 pick is not only not going to be a bust....but looks like he will minimally be a 'very good' player for years to come......IT IS A GOOD PICK. I'll grab two drafts top 10 at random....2000 & 1995 Let's see.....2000 1. Courtney Brown....Hmmm 2. LaVar Arrington....Good/Hmmm 3. Chris Samuels....Good 4. Peter Warrick....Hmmm 5. Jamal Lewis....Good 6. Corey Simon....Good/Hmmm 7. Thomas Jones....Hmmm 8. Plaxico Burress....Decent 9. Brian Urlacher....Good 10. Travis Taylor....Hmmm 1995 1. Ki-Jana Carter....Hmmm 2. Tony Boselli....Good 3. Steve McNair....Good(though took his time) 4. Michael Westbrook....Hmmm 5. Kerry Collins....Good/Hmmm 6. Kevin Carter....Decent 7. Mike Mamula....Hmmm 8. Joey Galloway....Decent 9. Kyle Brady....Hmmm 10. J.J. Stokes....Hmmm Do I need to list off every top 10 in history????? PERSPECTIVE Not being a bust is better than half the picks in the top 10. Where did the mentality come from that all of our top picks have to be HOFers in their first season to be considered decent picks? Even McCargos performance was better than probably half of the first rounders first season in the league.
Max997 Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 I think the Bills could've traded the 8th pick and still gotten Whitner. Having Leinart drop into their laps....he was a tradable commodity. I know that they said Detroit might pick Whitner, but so what? They could've had Arizona's pick plus a 2nd or 3rd. It still drives me nuts. And Whitner got zero votes for defensive rookie of the year. McCargo? Who the hell knows? He was not playing like a first rounder, let alone a first rounder worth giving up what they did to move up and get him. I hope he pans out. Marv gets my full support for the rest of the draft. I thought on draft day that Youboty and Simpson were steals. Youboty would've been a lot better had he not spent a month away from camp. The clubs loyalty to Youboty should pay dividends down the road. They could've been really tough on the kid. If he turns out to be a player, they should be able to keep him without any problem. Remember, Marv drafted Howard Ballard in the 12th, and look how that panned out. I agree with most of what you said except for the last line, Marv was the coach not the GM when Ballard was selected. Im sure marv was involved but you cant give him credit for Ballard, that would go to the scout that found him and Polian before marv I like Whitner but I would have preferred they stayed at 8 and selected Ngata and then Mangold with their second pick.
Pyrite Gal Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 I agree with most of what you said except for the last line, Marv was the coach not the GM when Ballard was selected. Im sure marv was involved but you cant give him credit for Ballard, that would go to the scout that found him and Polian before marv I like Whitner but I would have preferred they stayed at 8 and selected Ngata and then Mangold with their second pick. Yep, but so what as in hindsight everyone wishes that they had picked players who worked out and did well. The view that in hindsight the Bills would have been better picking any two players rather than the two players they chose is pretty meaningless. PERHAPS suggesting 1 change of the picks looking at the change being an early top 10 pick MAY be a relevant comment because this change is possible, but the idea that a pick of Mangold was at all forseesble or even doable as the right thing to do is actually pretty outrageous (and actually a pretty small minded notion) in retrospect. The only way the Mangold decision would have made a sense as a pick for the Bills would have been IF they targeted this OL need for all to see by them not making the effort to solve the problem by signing Fowler as an FA. If they had such a clear need for a center it seems quite likely that a team like the Jets would have figured that the Bills were going to go for Mangold with their second choice and they would have been dumb not to trade up of do what they had to do to prevent the Bills from getting him. Everyone clearly has the right to do the woulda/coulda/shoulda second guessing on this one but to do this without acknowledging the unlikelihood of this outcome by the Bills without the benefit of hindsight just comes off as incredibly small minded whining.
jimmyv. Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 Ahh, but what you are missing is that Seymour went to Georgia, Wilfork went to Miami, Marcus Stroud went to Georgia, and John Henderson went to Tennessee. Ngata went to Hawaii. Not quite the same resume as the afformentioned DT's in this thread. Nuff said. Ngata went to Oregon or Oregon St. and was highly regarded in most circles. He did not dominate as expected in some post season all star games, and I think that is what lowered his grade. From what I read and heard, in regular season in Pac 10, he was dominant, great speed, quickness and strength. Watching Balt's D in game against Indy, he was a force in the middle of the line and showed good lateral movement. I stand by my statement that passing on Ngata to take DW was a mistake.
Max997 Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 Yep, but so what as in hindsight everyone wishes that they had picked players who worked out and did well. The view that in hindsight the Bills would have been better picking any two players rather than the two players they chose is pretty meaningless. PERHAPS suggesting 1 change of the picks looking at the change being an early top 10 pick MAY be a relevant comment because this change is possible, but the idea that a pick of Mangold was at all forseesble or even doable as the right thing to do is actually pretty outrageous (and actually a pretty small minded notion) in retrospect. The only way the Mangold decision would have made a sense as a pick for the Bills would have been IF they targeted this OL need for all to see by them not making the effort to solve the problem by signing Fowler as an FA. If they had such a clear need for a center it seems quite likely that a team like the Jets would have figured that the Bills were going to go for Mangold with their second choice and they would have been dumb not to trade up of do what they had to do to prevent the Bills from getting him. Everyone clearly has the right to do the woulda/coulda/shoulda second guessing on this one but to do this without acknowledging the unlikelihood of this outcome by the Bills without the benefit of hindsight just comes off as incredibly small minded whining. a lot of people including myself wanted Ngata and Mangold before the Bills made their pick it was known the Bills were trading up back into the first round and were after McCargo and him and Mangold were most likely both going to be available.....learn a little about the draft and do a little research before throwing insults around. The Giants could have traded up and taken McCargo since they were rumored to be high on him and were going to take him with their first pick its easy to look back and say the Bills could have drafted either one because both Ngata and Mangold were available when the Bills were on the clock and they would have been the better pick the Bills also signed Matt Bowen to play SS and still drafted Whitner so your argument about Fowler is weak at best
DrDawkinstein Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 i think you guys should all hand in resumes at one bills drive. who knew we had so many psychics on our hands?!?
TC in St. Louis Posted January 17, 2007 Author Posted January 17, 2007 i think you guys should all hand in resumes at one bills drive. who knew we had so many psychics on our hands?!? Why does everybody seem to be upset when people want to discuss something? It's just a discussion. We can't go back in time and change anything. When the Bills chose Whitner, I spent the next 2 hours in a rage, about how they had made a huge huge blunder. At the end of that day, finding out what was their logic, I supported the choice. Whitner had a really good year. Had it been any other player but Leinart, I wouldn't question it. A year earlier, he was considered the number one pick in the draft. The worst move of the day was Houston's passing on the commodity known as Reggie Bush. It seems to me that they could've at least gleaned an extra pick from New Orleans for not choosing Bush. Look at what's happening in New Orleans. Bush is a large part of that. Look at what happened in Houston. Hell, I can't even remember the name of the guy who was taken number one, that's how impactful he was. Did he even make the all-rookie team?
Bill from NYC Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 Why does everybody seem to be upset when people want to discuss something? It's just a discussion. We can't go back in time and change anything. Don't ask me. I think that it come down to Marv being a protected species, which is OK......I suppose.
apuszczalowski Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 Don't ask me. I think that it come down to Marv being a protected species, which is OK......I suppose. No, I think its because everyone looks back now and says we should have grabbed this guy or that guy because they played so well this year and i thought it was a good idea. Whats done is done, Marv chosen Whitner (even though we had bowen at the time who was supposed to start until whitner was ready to go in but became injured in TC) and some other good players went to different places and played well and may have been a better choice in hindsight now. What we did get is a very good young safety and will have a great secondary for years to come. ' Theres not much else you can do about it but whine and cry they didn't take your choice, and maybe send in your resume with the picks you had made, and maybe Ralph with Fire Marv and move you into the GM position (Bill this is not directed at you, I used the words you to represent everyone on the board, I just gupted you to answer a question)
TC in St. Louis Posted January 17, 2007 Author Posted January 17, 2007 Good God. Just because somebody has an opinion doesn't mean they are suggesting they should run the team. Can you guys relax for FIVE SECONDS?? Get off your friggin' high horse, dude. I'm fully entitled to express my ideas. Never did I say I thought I should be GM of the team.
Ozymandius Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 will have a great secondary for years to come. ' Nate hasn't gotten re-signed yet and I don't think he will be. Whether we have a great secondary for years to come will still be determined by our offseason moves to compensate for his loss.
MarkyMannn Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 I thought on draft day that Youboty and Simpson were steals. Youboty would've been a lot better had he not spent a month away from camp. The clubs loyalty to Youboty should pay dividends down the road. They could've been really tough on the kid. If he turns out to be a player, they should be able to keep him without any problem. Youboty's loyalty because we gave him a break? You mean like Willis who we made a first round pick, paid him to take a year off from Buffalo, and now wants out? I'm really down on Youboty and the time off he took from camp. To me that was a really long time when your new very high paying job needs you. I sort of feel like he gets the money, and then I'll sit out as long as I want Sort of callous of me, but that's how I see it
apuszczalowski Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 Youboty's loyalty because we gave him a break? You mean like Willis who we made a first round pick, paid him to take a year off from Buffalo, and now wants out? I'm really down on Youboty and the time off he took from camp. To me that was a really long time when your new very high paying job needs you. I sort of feel like he gets the money, and then I'll sit out as long as I want Sort of callous of me, but that's how I see it Youbouty's situation was due to the unexpected death of his mother, and the team was not relying on him being back as much as the fans were hoping he would get to play. They didn't need a new CB to step in and start like Whitner or Simpson. Hopefully he will be a better person then McGahee (who has not said or indicated he wants out of Buffalo) and be greatful to the team for allowing him to take that kind of time off
apuszczalowski Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 Good God. Just because somebody has an opinion doesn't mean they are suggesting they should run the team. Can you guys relax for FIVE SECONDS?? Get off your friggin' high horse, dude. I'm fully entitled to express my ideas. Never did I say I thought I should be GM of the team. Yes but when your opinion is always, "we should have drafted this person, Marv screwed up. He should have done this, he should have picked the guy I suggested. If the Bills did this they would be better, now they are doomed" (not saying you yourself have said stuff like this, just some posters have) you are implying that you are better then the guy in charge now and would be a better canidate for the job
Ozymandius Posted January 17, 2007 Posted January 17, 2007 PERSPECTIVE!!!!! It's a wonderful thing. Over half of first rounders are busts....PERIOD......including the top 10! When we can finish the season with the near certain knowledge that our top 10 pick is not only not going to be a bust....but looks like he will minimally be a 'very good' player for years to come......IT IS A GOOD PICK. Dibs, the bar was raised when we went with a safety in round 1. If you look at safeties drafted in round 1 over the past five years ( http://www.theredzone.org/draft_history/sh....asp?Position=S ), the list is very small and goes like this: 2006: Michael Huff, Donte Whitner, Jason Allen 2005: none 2004: Sean Taylor 2003: Troy Polamalu 2002: Roy Williams, Ed Reed Donte needs to become the average of Sean Taylor, Troy Polamalu, Roy Williams, and Ed Reed, which would make him a great player. It's like if you drafted a kicker in round 1, you would expect that kicker to be pretty darn good. With the way the salary cap is headed, the Bills really don't have that many chances to get a great player. The draft is the key for us to improve, and it is imperative that when we get a top 15 pick, the player we select pans out. Bottom line is that if the Bills are going to be Super Bowl contenders any time soon, Donte Whitner will have to become a great, game-changing player. If he doesn't, I doubt we'll be contenders. I do think he has a chance to be, though.
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