dave mcbride Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 http://www.superbowl.com/news/story/9923447
GG Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 It is a nice article. Although to be fair, Butler's actions nearly sank the Chargers, and the success of the team is due to ... This season, Smith is responsible for 46 out of 53 players on the current roster. ps - Way to be a great judge of managerial talent, Mr Ralph Wilson. Smith would have taken the job if it was offered to him.
dave mcbride Posted January 12, 2007 Author Posted January 12, 2007 It is a nice article. Although to be fair, Butler's actions nearly sank the Chargers, and the success of the team is due to ps - Way to be a great judge of managerial talent, Mr Ralph Wilson. Smith would have taken the job if it was offered to him. to be fair to JB, though, he was there for 2 drafts (he died before the 03 draft), and did draft tomlinson, brees, jammer (excellent year this year) and reche caldwell (who had a pretty solid year, btw). he also hired marty s. whatever happened to ben leber? he was a real comer, but has disappeared from my radar screen.
Peter Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 It is a nice article. Although to be fair, Butler's actions nearly sank the Chargers, and the success of the team is due to ps - Way to be a great judge of managerial talent, Mr Ralph Wilson. Smith would have taken the job if it was offered to him. He just might be available if the Chargers lose this weekend. There is a rumor (on PFT) that he and/or Schottenheimer are on thin ice if the Chargers do not advance in the playoffs. Reportedly, AJ also has a bit prickly personality which has not endeared him to some -- including Schottenheimer although they supposedly kissed and made up. Who knows whether any of this is true. Nevertheless, the guy knows football -- just as Polian and Butler know/knew the game and were able to evaluate talent. To this day, I wish that Polian never was forced to leave the Bills.
dave mcbride Posted January 12, 2007 Author Posted January 12, 2007 to be fair to JB, though, he was there for 2 drafts (he died before the 03 draft), and did draft tomlinson, brees, jammer (excellent year this year) and reche caldwell (who had a pretty solid year, btw). he also hired marty s. whatever happened to ben leber? he was a real comer, but has disappeared from my radar screen. p.s. brandon gorin (SD seventh rounder, 01) started for the pats in their 04 super bowl season. http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=...o&bio=22499 leber looks to be a middling player on the vikes, although he is a starter.
jester43 Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 It is a nice article. Although to be fair, Butler's actions nearly sank the Chargers, and the success of the team is due to ps - Way to be a great judge of managerial talent, Mr Ralph Wilson. Smith would have taken the job if it was offered to him. maybe i am remembering this wrong, but i thought smith couldn't wait to get out of here once butler decided to go. i don't think he wanted to deal with the cap disaster here any more than butler did, and couldn't wait to run off to san diego with him. i agree the best thing would have been if he'd stayed.
Gordio Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 He just might be available if the Chargers lose this weekend. There is a rumor (on PFT) that he and/or Schottenheimer are on thin ice if the Chargers do not advance in the playoffs. Reportedly, AJ also has a bit prickly personality which has not endeared him to some -- including Schottenheimer although they supposedly kissed and made up. Who knows whether any of this is true. Nevertheless, the guy knows football -- just as Polian and Butler know/knew the game and were able to evaluate talent. To this day, I wish that Polian never was forced to leave the Bills. Oh it is true, Smith is a bulldog. Anything short of a super bowl appearance this year & one of them is out. My guess it is Schotzy. Not to stomp on a man's grave or anything, but Ive always had a bad taste in my mouth about butler & how he deceived the bills. This is just my theory, but I think he knew he was leaving for SD a year before he left. His last draft will go down as one of the worst in team history, he kept putting wilson off about a contract extension & I know AJ has been on record saying a few unflaterring comments about Wilson. I got a little advice for AJ Smith & actually the whole Charger organization, you have not won a god dam thing yet. Keep your mouth shut until you do. It rubbed me the wrong way when the bolts came here in december. How Rivers said we should of beat them by 30 points. If you go onto the chargers message board they are talking like they are going to kill the pats this week. I know it is sacreligeous to say this, but Im almost pulling for the patriots this week. Im tired of hearing about how good the chargers are.
dave mcbride Posted January 12, 2007 Author Posted January 12, 2007 Oh it is true, Smith is a bulldog. Anything short of a super bowl appearance this year & one of them is out. My guess it is Schotzy. Not to stomp on a man's grave or anything, but Ive always had a bad taste in my mouth about butler & how he deceived the bills. This is just my theory, but I think he knew he was leaving for SD a year before he left. His last draft will go down as one of the worst in team history, he kept putting wilson off about a contract extension & I know AJ has been on record saying a few unflaterring comments about Wilson. I got a little advice for AJ Smith & actually the whole Charger organization, you have not won a god dam thing yet. Keep your mouth shut until you do. It rubbed me the wrong way when the bolts came here in december. How Rivers said we should of beat them by 30 points. If you go onto the chargers message board they are talking like they are going to kill the pats this week. I know it is sacreligeous to say this, but Im almost pulling for the patriots this week. Im tired of hearing about how good the chargers are. butler didn't deceive the bills in any way whatsoever. wilson wanted to extend the contract with only a marginal increase in pay (he was making $1 million at the time), which was par for the course with wilson re gm and coach pay. butler also knew that if he left, he would probably get a geometric increase in pay, which in fact happened (SD more than tripled his salary). he failed to negotioate with wilson because he knew wilson's baseline parameters on this issue (still in effect today) and probably figured that negotiating at all would simply be negotiating in bad faith. also, butler didn't tank the draft - he just had a bad year. it happens to all of them. as you may recall, they really wanted ahmed plummer, who was drafted immediately before flowers, and really wanted mike brown, who was drafted in the high 30s. their next target was deon grant, but he went immediately before they picked to carolina. the bills ended up with travares tillman, who is still starting in the league ...
IDBillzFan Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 As a side note, I had the coincidental opportunity to attend Butler's memorial service in May 2003. I happened to have an appointment in San Diego and read about it in the morning paper, so I left early to attend. It turned out to be a bit surreal because I didn't realize that speakers at the Memorial would be Marv Levy, Chris Berman and Marcellus Wiley. Smith did the closing comments, and there were a number of players there...too long ago to remember specifically who. But it was a really nice memorial and I've always been glad that I had the good fortune to attend.
dave mcbride Posted January 12, 2007 Author Posted January 12, 2007 As a side note, I had the coincidental opportunity to attend Butler's memorial service in May 2003. I happened to have an appointment in San Diego and read about it in the morning paper, so I left early to attend. It turned out to be a bit surreal because I didn't realize that speakers at the Memorial would be Marv Levy, Chris Berman and Marcellus Wiley. Smith did the closing comments, and there were a number of players there...too long ago to remember specifically who. But it was a really nice memorial and I've always been glad that I had the good fortune to attend. wow - thanks for that. i'm guessing it was pretty emotional for a lot of folks there, given that he died too young.
In space no one can hear Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 butler didn't deceive the bills in any way whatsoever. wilson wanted to extend the contract with only a marginal increase in pay (he was making $1 million at the time), which was par for the course with wilson re gm and coach pay. butler also knew that if he left, he would probably get a geometric increase in pay, which in fact happened (SD more than tripled his salary). he failed to negotioate with wilson because he knew wilson's baseline parameters on this issue (still in effect today) and probably figured that negotiating at all would simply be negotiating in bad faith. also, butler didn't tank the draft - he just had a bad year. it happens to all of them. as you may recall, they really wanted ahmed plummer, who was drafted immediately before flowers, and really wanted mike brown, who was drafted in the high 30s. their next target was deon grant, but he went immediately before they picked to carolina. the bills ended up with travares tillman, who is still starting in the league ... All great points(and accurate) Dave McBride! I remember sitting on my couch during that draft(self confessed draft-knick) and following every detail as usual. The lesson learned by that draft was - don't reach for a position of need- the board did not fall the Bills way that draft- and they reached a number of times and got burned!
Kelly the Dog Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 butler didn't deceive the bills in any way whatsoever. wilson wanted to extend the contract with only a marginal increase in pay (he was making $1 million at the time), which was par for the course with wilson re gm and coach pay. butler also knew that if he left, he would probably get a geometric increase in pay, which in fact happened (SD more than tripled his salary). he failed to negotioate with wilson because he knew wilson's baseline parameters on this issue (still in effect today) and probably figured that negotiating at all would simply be negotiating in bad faith. also, butler didn't tank the draft - he just had a bad year. it happens to all of them. as you may recall, they really wanted ahmed plummer, who was drafted immediately before flowers, and really wanted mike brown, who was drafted in the high 30s. their next target was deon grant, but he went immediately before they picked to carolina. the bills ended up with travares tillman, who is still starting in the league ... Sure he deceived the Bills, regardless of the fact that Ralph was lowballing him. He consistently said, "This is not the time to talk about it, let's talk after the season." That, knowing full well he was gone and had already made his decision. That is the definition of deception, as well as an outright lie. It didn't matter that Ralph was lowballing him, that may not have been fair but it wasn't lying. Butler was the one lying. And he also left the team in a shambles by gambling too much on contracts and losing his gamble. Then scooted off to greener pastures. I don't blame him for taking a higher paying job, and I do believe that he wasn't getting paid here as much as he was worth on the open market. But Ralph, even though he was dirt cheap, was the honest broker. he said this is what I think you are worth. Butler was not. Oh, and by the way, Tavares Tillman sucked and still sucks and was benched late in the year for Yeremiah Bell, which was right around the time the team took off.
Gordio Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 All great points(and accurate) Dave McBride! I remember sitting on my couch during that draft(self confessed draft-knick) and following every detail as usual. The lesson learned by that draft was - don't reach for a position of need- the board did not fall the Bills way that draft- and they reached a number of times and got burned! A lot of these points are flat out wrong. Wilson was even on record saying money never came up because John refused to sit down & talk to him. It was reported that Wilson was going to be willing to nearly double his salary. He never got the chance. Butler had his mind made up a long time ago. He left the team in cap hell & was JUST AS MUCH RESPONSIBLE for this decade of bad football as Donahoe was IMO. In fact the decline of the bills could be first attributed to 2 things. The Rob Johnson trade(in which we could of drafted Fred Taylor) & Butlers last draft. Just because the guy has died doesnt mean we have to enshrine him into the Pro Football Hall of Fame for GMS. Polian built the Super Bowl Teams. In the world of football, Butler was a decent scout, nothing more, nothing less.
dave mcbride Posted January 12, 2007 Author Posted January 12, 2007 Sure he deceived the Bills, regardless of the fact that Ralph was lowballing him. He consistently said, "This is not the time to talk about it, let's talk after the season." That, knowing full well he was gone and had already made his decision. That is the definition of deception, as well as an outright lie. It didn't matter that Ralph was lowballing him, that may not have been fair but it wasn't lying. Butler was the one lying. And he also left the team in a shambles by gambling too much on contracts and losing his gamble. Then scooted off to greener pastures. I don't blame him for taking a higher paying job, and I do believe that he wasn't getting paid here as much as he was worth on the open market. But Ralph, even though he was dirt cheap, was the honest broker. he said this is what I think you are worth. Butler was not. Oh, and by the way, Tavares Tillman sucked and still sucks and was benched late in the year for Yeremiah Bell, which was right around the time the team took off. I certainly don't mean to defend Tillman, but with regard to Butler, what was he supposed to do? Quit? The Bills also approached Nate Clements this year, and he didn't want to play ball, but all the while saying the right thing about wanting to stay with the Bills. What was he supposed to? Quit? I don't see how the principle is different.
dave mcbride Posted January 12, 2007 Author Posted January 12, 2007 A lot of these points are flat out wrong. Wilson was even on record saying money never came up because John refused to sit down & talk to him. It was reported that Wilson was going to be willing to nearly double his salary. He never got the chance. Butler had his mind made up a long time ago. He left the team in cap hell & was JUST AS MUCH RESPONSIBLE for this decade of bad football as Donahoe was IMO. In fact the decline of the bills could be first attributed to 2 things. The Rob Johnson trade(in which we could of drafted Fred Taylor) & Butlers last draft. Just because the guy has died doesnt mean we have to enshrine him into the Pro Football Hall of Fame for GMS. Polian built the Super Bowl Teams. In the world of football, Butler was a decent scout, nothing more, nothing less. i'm not "flat out wrong." for evidence, look at what wilson paid donohoe (1 million/year) and what he's paying marv (surely no more than $1 million/year). you seem to be suggesting that the leopard was going to change its spots when it came to butler. i'm not going to defend the johnson trade, but to point to one bad draft after so many good ones seems ridiculous. name me one gm who served a substantial length of time who hasn't had an out-and-out bust draft. i'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that you can't. p.s. the number that did come up re butler (as I recall) was 1.3 million. Butler left for a $3 million plus salary. Wouldn't you do the same? I would have.
Gordio Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 i'm not "flat out wrong." for evidence, look at what wilson paid donohoe (1 million/year) and what he's paying marv (surely no more than $1 million/year). you seem to be suggesting that the leopard was going to change its spots when it came to butler. i'm not going to defend the johnson trade, but to point to one bad draft after so many good ones seems ridiculous. name me one gm who served a substantial length of time who hasn't had an out-and-out bust draft. i'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that you can't. Whatever, all I know is that Butler left the bills in alot worse shape then when he took over as GM. Everybody seems to give the guy a pass on this because he is no longer alive.
Gordio Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 i'm not "flat out wrong." for evidence, look at what wilson paid donohoe (1 million/year) and what he's paying marv (surely no more than $1 million/year). you seem to be suggesting that the leopard was going to change its spots when it came to butler. i'm not going to defend the johnson trade, but to point to one bad draft after so many good ones seems ridiculous. name me one gm who served a substantial length of time who hasn't had an out-and-out bust draft. i'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that you can't. p.s. the number that did come up re butler (as I recall) was 1.3 million. Butler left for a $3 million plus salary. Wouldn't you do the same? I would have. Of course, anyone would of. But at least be honest with Wilson & not go about in deceitfull manner like he did.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 I certainly don't mean to defend Tillman, but with regard to Butler, what was he supposed to do? Quit? The Bills also approached Nate Clements this year, and he didn't want to play ball, but all the while saying the right thing about wanting to stay with the Bills. What was he supposed to? Quit? I don't see how the principle is different. First, you were the one that started out saying that Butler didn't deceive the Bills in any way whatsoever. I was responding to that, which was totally untrue. The answer to your question is to negotiate in good faith, behind closed doors, with Ralph. He is the boss. Even if it means a veiled threat of "Ralph, I am good at my job, you're paying me peanuts, other teams are willing to pay me threefold. I would love to stay and win here, it is my home and dream job, but you have to be fair to me, too, or I will have to look elsewhere. I don't think it benefits either of us to play this out in the press. I want to stay, and I want to be paid my value to the team, organization and community. I think we can come to a mutual understanding. If we can't agree, you need to look at other options and I must, too. It's really in your court."
ganesh Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 I certainly don't mean to defend Tillman, but with regard to Butler, what was he supposed to do? Quit? The Bills also approached Nate Clements this year, and he didn't want to play ball, but all the while saying the right thing about wanting to stay with the Bills. What was he supposed to? Quit? I don't see how the principle is different. I think the analogy is different...Clements was made some offer or parameters of a contract. After seeing that he has refused to negotiate and chose to look at FA. He has clearly said that he would like to see what is out there.....
Orton's Arm Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 It was a good article. The one part I'll take issue with is this sentence: As GM, Butler had been responsible for putting together the Bills' dynasty of the 1990s, a team that appeared in four consecutive Super Bowls. That sentence makes it sound like Butler was the man in charge of building those Super Bowl teams, even though Bill Polian did more than any other single person to put them together. Butler's real success came in the late '90s with the strong Wade Phillips defenses.
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