Alaska Darin Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 Indeed, I didn't realize you're talking about a webite when we're discussing stats. However, it doesn't change the fact that Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan are definitely better offensive shortstops than Ripken. Couldn't tell you. Never saw them play. I do know that they never faced pitchers like Mariano Rivera. I also know that the reason guys like Jeter, Nomar, Tejada, and ARod became shortstops was because of Cal Ripken. Period.
The Poojer Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 but the streak in an of itself is un-real...nearly 20 years of doing your job, a physical job to boot, and you do not miss a day of work...that is a feat worthy of accolades alone..add to that a career .300 hitter, 400+ HR's 3100+ hits...Ripken is more than deserving...Unanimous(SP?) maybe not, but as close as you can get...unless he can walk on water.... Take the streak away........................and we are talking one of the weakest inductees of all time. I made a mistake.....I thought you asked for another better defensive player than Ripken, thus I mentioned Maz never getting in on defense alone. But yeah man, Honus Wagner was by far, the best shortstop to ever play the game. Ripken might have been the best hitting shortstop in a time that SS sucked at the plate. Big Deal. It's kinda like saying the Bills were the best football team ever in the AFC when the confernece was busy losing 10 or so Super Bowls in a row in the 90's. It really doens't say much.
The Poojer Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 in what friggin century? the one where baseball was still played by players that today couldn't empty your wastebasket???? common man...different time, way different (aka tougher) game Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan are definitely better offensive shortstops than Ripken. End of story.
The Poojer Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 No-one saw them play...holy crap...these guys were playing when baseball was in its infancy...they never played against the players that play today...granted you cannot extrapolate things that easily..but their stats were against (arguably) sub standard baseball players, when you look at the talent of todays (modern day) players... Couldn't tell you. Never saw them play. I do know that they never faced pitchers like Mariano Rivera. I also know that the reason guys like Jeter, Nomar, Tejada, and ARod became shortstops was because of Cal Ripken. Period.
smokinandjokin Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 !@#$in-A, relax guys, he got into the Hall. We're debating why 8 people used their right NOT to vote for a guy? Who cares!!! Would you really sleep better tonight knowing that Cal was unanimously voted in? Are you going to go to Cooperstown and shake your head in shame when you get to his plaque, wondering what might have been had those 8 guys only voted for him? Maybe it'd be polished to a more perfect shine? Just because somebody doesn't vote the way you want him to doesn't mean he's a retard. Personally, Ripken would've been on my ballot, along with Gwynn and McGwire. But I don't really give a schit if somebody else didn't vote for them. Was Cal slamming the phone on the desk after the greatest call of his life, because 8 baseball writers decided there were other players they wanted to vote for? Good God, just look at the title of the thread. Who are the 15 retards who get all worked up over HOF voting?
syhuang Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 Couldn't tell you. Never saw them play. I do know that they never faced pitchers like Mariano Rivera. Same can be said to other players in different era. For your information, the avdanced stats above take league average into consideration so this factor is not a real issue. I also know that the reason guys like Jeter, Nomar, Tejada, and ARod became shortstops was because of Cal Ripken. Period. This is the extra credit like 2632 consecutive games as I mentioned before. It has nothing to do with offensive power. Again. Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan are definitely better offensive shortstops than Ripken. Period.
taterhill Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 Again. Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan are definitely better offensive shortstops than Ripken. Period. yeah we got it the first 8 times you wrote it...
syhuang Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 yeah we got it the first 8 times you wrote it... You got it, but unfortunately, some still don't... Furthermore, these people don't bother to check (advanced) stats to compare players in different era. Most of them don't even realize there're such stats existed and can only come up with something like "the players are different" or "the times are different". News Update: these factors are all taken into account in sabermetrics long time ago.
Alaska Darin Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 You got it, but unfortunately, some still don't... Furthermore, these people don't bother to check (advanced) stats to compare players in different era. Most of them don't even realize there're such stats existed and can only come up with something like "the players are different" or "the times are different". News Update: these factors are all taken into account in sabermetrics long time ago. You're just so fukkin' superior. Which explains why you didn't know what Baseball Reference was. What we get is that is your opinion based on whatever mathmatical dork you like. Period. Another mathmatical dork doesn't agree with you. Period.
TheMadCap Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 I didn't take time to read this thread, so this may have been mentioned already. One of the guys who didn't vote for Ripkin was on Sports Radio 910 here in Richmond yesterday on my way home. He writes for the Southside something (in Chicago). He didn't vote for anyone. He says the reason he abstained from voting for anyone is that he was unsure of whether to vote for certain un-named players due to the alleged steroids issues, and felt it would be unfair to vote for anyone until he was more clear on the "rules" for who should get in. He made several references to "being 99 percent sure about Palmero" and got burned and so he says it's better to be one year late than one year too early, and find out later that one guy who he voted in cheated. This guy also said that there needs to be clearer criteria on what the stance on the steroid era players should be...
MattyT Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 Don't let the offensive numbers fool you. Bill James (the leading statistician in pro baseball) shows that Ripken is most similar to the following players offensively: 1. Dave Winfield (787) * (first ballot HOF) 2. Robin Yount (759) * (first ballot HOF) 3. Craig Biggio (753) (not yet eligible for HOF) 4. Al Kaline (747) * (first ballot HOF) 5. Eddie Murray (742) * (first ballot HOF) 6. Carl Yastrzemski (741) * (first ballot HOF) 7. George Brett (704) * (first ballot HOF) 8. Harold Baines (703) (1 ballot) 9. Tony Perez (699) * (9 ballot HOF) 10. Andre Dawson (696) (5 ballots) * denotes Hall of Famer Add his remarkable streak of games played, World Championship, All-Star appearances and awards (ROY, Gold Gloves, POYs, AL MVPs, Silver Sluggers, etc) and it's not even a question that he's a first ballot HOF.
Ramius Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 Does that say he wouldn't get in. It's good enough to question his stats though. Take away the streak and signing autographs for 8 hours before every game and you have...... .274 20-80 A better than average fielder with below average range. You tell me another player that would be in with those numbers? Hell, Palmeiro's numbers kill those numbers, and before Palmeiro was proved to be a juicer, he was debated all of the time. Yeah, Ripken sucks. Any SS can play 20 straight years and hit .274-20-80 every single year and revolutionize their position. Thats why its done all the time by SS's. Oh wait...
KD in CA Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 Upset that Ripken was left off 8 ballots?? How about this silliness: Ty Cobb was left off four ballots Nolan Ryan wasn't on six Hank Aaron on nine Babe Ruth on 11 Willie Mays on 23 Joe DiMaggio needed to appear on the ballot three times to get in, receiving 44 percent and 69 percent in his first two tries. People didn't vote for Ruth?? Mays??? DiMaggio needed 3 tries???? It just part of baseball's wierd culture. Nobody has ever received 100% and it's likely no one will for a very long time.
MattyT Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 Upset that Ripken was left off 8 ballots?? How about this silliness: Ty Cobb was left off four ballots Nolan Ryan wasn't on six Hank Aaron on nine Babe Ruth on 11 Willie Mays on 23 Joe DiMaggio needed to appear on the ballot three times to get in, receiving 44 percent and 69 percent in his first two tries. People didn't vote for Ruth?? Mays??? DiMaggio needed 3 tries???? It just part of baseball's wierd culture. Nobody has ever received 100% and it's likely no one will for a very long time. If that doesn't put this into perspective, then nothing will.
VABills Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 This is the point. You asked the question "Name 2 better offensive shortstops that preceded Ripken. You can't." and people are replying to your question. Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan are definitely better offensive shortstops than Ripken. End of story. Ernie Banks who played half his career at short and lost numerous stats from his time in the Negro Leagues, still managed to put up nearly as many hits, 100 more home runs and better range and defensive stats at short then Cal. In addition to the two you mention. And Ramius, when Banks played short he averaged 40 HR's and was over a .300 batter. His starts fell off when he moved to first. So yeah you should expect it. And BTW Cal didn't revolutionize the position, Banks did. HOF -probably First Ballot HOF- not a chance
smokinandjokin Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 How did Ripken avoid the steroid/supplement questions? I'm not saying he did anything, but how come he's never been suspected? Playing 2500 games in a row at shortstop is not easy to do. Sore knee, sore shoulder, sore everything...If there's a little rub you can put on your sore body to help rejuvenate, why wouldn't you do it when everyone else is? Steroids aren't just for bulking up and becoming a 55-HR hitter. They are prescribed all of the time by doctors for people recovering from surgeries and injuries. He seemed awfully shifty when asked about McGwire and tried to jump off the topic immediately. He just wants to fly under the radar of that issue. But hey, McGwire never tested positive either...
MattyT Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 Ernie Banks who played half his career at short and lost numerous stats from his time in the Negro Leagues, still managed to put up nearly as many hits, 100 more home runs and better range and defensive stats at short then Cal. In addition to the two you mention. And Ramius, when Banks played short he averaged 40 HR's and was over a .300 batter. His starts fell off when he moved to first. So yeah you should expect it. And BTW Cal didn't revolutionize the position, Banks did. HOF -probably First Ballot HOF- not a chance Assuming that errors are the most important stat that infielders are measured by, then Cal's defensive stats are significantly better than Banks. And Banks didn't have to play on artificial surfaces, which are faster (although easier to read). The rest I can't disagree with except for Cal not being a first ballot HOF... which is nuts.
TheMadCap Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 How did Ripken avoid the steroid/supplement questions? I'm not saying he did anything, but how come he's never been suspected? Playing 2500 games in a row at shortstop is not easy to do. Sore knee, sore shoulder, sore everything...If there's a little rub you can put on your sore body to help rejuvenate, why wouldn't you do it when everyone else is? Steroids aren't just for bulking up and becoming a 55-HR hitter. They are prescribed all of the time by doctors for people recovering from surgeries and injuries. He seemed awfully shifty when asked about McGwire and tried to jump off the topic immediately. He just wants to fly under the radar of that issue. But hey, McGwire never tested positive either... He didn't. Read my reply...
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